Steering Issue/Steering Modes/Losing Control

[R5L]

Apologies fellas, been meaning to type this up but couldn't find the time. So, I took mustang to trusted mechanic on 10/21 to see what the issue could be. Didn't want to take it to Ford because I wanted a good diagnosis done not a half a$$ job. Mechanic said the alignment was dead on, all in the green and just barely off in the front, like almost perfect alignment so that wasn't the issue. Also, checked to see if any codes came up to see if it could be a computer issue maybe with the steering modes or something, nothing came back on that so ruled that out. Mechanic took car out too and drove it around, lower speeds, higher speeds, different kinds of roads and did feel the pulling and moving going on with ruts or uneven roads, but didn't think it was anything with suspension as he said it felt tight and all good. He checked underneath for any loose bolts on suspension and around it to see maybe if one came slightly loose from factory and maybe got looser, but nothing there it all looked spot on to him. So, we still didn't have an answer until he gave me a call and we discussed the new wheels and tires I put on. Previous post i mentioned that my mustang came with stock wheels and stock goodyear all season 235/50R18 tires, and then ended up buying the black accent package wheels and tires from someone selling them off their 2019 mustang, only with 6k miles on them, with those specs being 255/40ZR19. So, he then explained to me that this was a slightly wider tire than what I originally had. He said that wider tires will have more contact with the road and when it catches a rut or uneven road, it will succumb/change shape to those ruts more than a skinnier tire will, which makes sense because a wider tire=increased surface area in contact with the pavement. Now, when I first got the new wheels put on, the tire shop guys just pumped them full of air before I left, and I didn't have any issue with pulling or anything. Over time they obviously lost some air and went down to around 32-31 psi cold when I checked when the issues were happening. This is the number thats on the door label so I wasn't sure that was the issue or not. But, if you think about it, a wider tire with lower tire pressure will definitely start changing shape/morphing in ruts or different road shapes and succumb to those areas more and more the less the tire pressure. This idea made the most sense to us after discussing it and finding nothing wrong with any other part of the car. And, the timeline also makes sense because when tires had ton of air in them this issue didn't happen, but it gradually started happening and getting worse and worse as time went on and the tires lost pressure. So, he pumped them full of air, all the way up to like 40, and the issue is gone. No more excessive pulling into ruts, back and forths, driving me off the road none of that. All I had to do was just excessively pump up the tires and the issue went away which is great for my wallet. It all makes sense though, wider tires, more surface contact area, combined with low pressure the tire will just morph into whatever rut you run into on any tire, but with a pumped up tire its like a brick and just wont change shapes that easily in a rut or uneven road. Another thing that may be a factor is the mental aspect, I drive a 2005 honda accord for grubhubing a lot and obviously they are just two insanely different cars so when I do jump in the mustang from time to time it obviously feels different, stiffer suspension, more sensitive steering etc. which may have made me feel the ruts and pulling a little more. Overall, happy with situation, and very happy I didnt take to Ford to have those genuises waste my time and money trying to figure out an issue that they didnt care to actually find a solution to. Anyways, thanks for all the insight fellas, and if you feel this issue happening to you, save the time and money and try pumping tires up high before you check anything else, it may be your issue. Thanks again everyone!

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[WD Pro]

40 psi ... ? I will have to remember that as the magic sauce to make these things drive well ...

Seriously and meant with the right intention - ford didn't put 32 on the door sticker to make these things handle badly and there is a good argument / good user experiences for going a bit lower than the sticker values

WD

ps : Please don't try a cars and coffee style exit when pulling out of a junction (unless you have got someone filming it for social media)

pps : Please don't post back with a 'uneven tyre wear' style thread

 

[R5L]

40 psi ... ? I will have to remember that as the magic sauce to make these things drive well ...

Seriously and meant with the right intention - ford didn't put 32 on the door sticker to make these things handle badly and there is a good argument / good user experiences for going a bit lower than the sticker values

WD

ps : Please don't try a cars and coffee style exit when pulling out of a junction (unless you have got someone filming it for social media)

pps : Please don't post back with a 'uneven tyre wear' style thread

Not sure what to tell ya dude lol car was pulling me off the road at lower psi’s, now at 40 it’s not. Checked everything else and couldn’t find a culprit. Unless you or anyone else have any other ideas this is what has fixed the situation for the time being. I do think the new wheels are what has caused this, maybe I needed to do something to the setup to avoid this but not sure and no ones chimed in on doing anything about that so this is where I’m at.

 

[ORRadtech]

As much as you may not want to hear it I suspect raising tire pressure by 25% is a bandaid, not a fix. Possibly a dangerous one.
You say you changed the wheels? If so it's possible that you have changed the suspension geometry enough that the original alignment settings are no longer valid. That could cause your issue. I don't know enough about the intricacies of suspension to make specific suggestions but I know that drastically over inflating tires is not a proper fix.

 

[Bikeman315]

See ya

Hi Ryan. First off please cut our friends from across the pond a little slack, No harm was meant. We just have differing styles of humor. Being a sarcastic SOB myself I totally get it.

Now to your car. I want reading your post feeling pretty good that you found a good mechanic right up to when the discussion of tires started. Bottom line, he gave you terrible advise. Adding that amount of air pressure didn't fix your problem, it covered it up.

First off your tires aren't that much different than stock. I have the on my 19' California Special at 32 PSI with absolutely no issues. Now if you were talking 305/325's maybe but not 255's. Also adding that kind of pressure can serous effect the life of your tires and create handling issues. Over inflation is equally as bad as under inflation.

But.......if over inflating your tires to 40psi cold eliminated the problem then I think you might have found your problem. You may have a bad tire. You may also have a defective wheel.

So do what you want, it's your car but I would strongly suggest you keep going. Go back to 32psi as the manufacturer recommends and if your problem returns have your wheels and tires checked.

 

[Bikeman315]

As much as you may not want to hear it I suspect raising tire pressure by 25% is a bandaid, not a fix. Possibly a dangerous one.
You say you changed the wheels? If so it's possible that you have changed the suspension geometry enough that the original alignment settings are no longer valid. That could cause your issue. I don't know enough about the intricacies of suspension to make specific suggestions but I know that drastically over inflating tires is not a proper fix.

You beat me too it. I type to slow. You're right, of course. Over inflation fixes nothing. But it might have given him somewhere else to look.

 

[Fly2High]

I would fire your mechanic If he accepted any money for that solution and let you leave like that. All you did was overinflate your tires rounding out the tread and reduce the contact patch. I have a PP2. They have 305/30R19 tires on them. Far wider than your tires and yet my recommended PSI is 33. Then again, my car weighs more so the 1 PSI difference could be attributed to that. All you will get is more wear along the centerline of the tire and less traction. Yes, My PP2 really tram lined when I had the Cup 2 tires on it. It was significantly reduced when I went over to the PS 4S. It is still there but very marginal. Still with the stock tire size of 305/30R19.

If you need to overinflate your tires then go back to stock. You are really gaining nothing. It also could be the tire and kind of tread it has causing it. Switching tires could help but, if the width is simply too much, you will still get some.

Did a quick search on tramlining and those tires and this is what I found

On a fiat 500 thread they say those tires tramline badly when they start to wear (post #5)
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?28986-Pirelli-PZero-Nero-s-LOUD!!!!

I've had 2 sets of these on 2 different WRX's. My only complaint is the tramlining. Perhaps I need to up my tire pressure, but the tramlining is really bad.

Aside from that, though, I love them. Sticky enough in the dry, and good enough in the winter. I've never had an issue in the snow (Colorado winters), I don't push my car too hard in the dry and they're good enough for me. But now that I have summer wheels and tires, I will buy a dedicated set of snow tires for the winter.

Here is a guy with a WRX with tramlining issues with those tires(post #6)
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1841569

Join DateAug 2014LocationBeaumont, TexasPosts1,454Thanks89Thanked 584 Times in 403 Posts

Originally Posted by saypat

so that's all these are good for is 20,000 miles?
If you got 20,000 miles out of Pzero Nero's you're doing better than most of us.

Also, the Pirellis tramline pretty badly when they start wearing. I had to ditch mine at 9000 miles.

Now, this could be the same guy.


Here is a corvette complaining of the same thing(Post 12)
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-general/1230890-who-here-has-pirelli-p-zero-neros.html

I Got the P Nero's back in August and I think they're fantastic.

Steering response is great, handling is great and they are much quieter than the run craps they replaced.

After 5,500 miles they still look like new.

The only thing I don't like is the tram lining. They seem to want to follow every imperfection in road.

Overall a great tire combo.

This is a guy with an Integra Type R who also has tramlining (post 14)
https://www.odyclub.com/threads/pirelli-p-zero-neros.16301/

I didn't jump on here in time for NitroPress, but I've had experience with the P-Zero Nero tire. That's what I thought about the tires when I first had them installed on my Integra Type R. Since then, I've had nothing but problems with them from the start and can't wait to burn them off and get another set. I've been through and entire replacement set due to manufacture defects and still have problems with them. The sidewall is way too soft and they do alright for handling. They're so soft that when I had my tires balanced, the guy told me that I had a blister on the sidewall of one of my tires and I didn't even notice it. I know, I haven't hit anything hard while riding on them, because I'm really careful when it comes to running over potholes, bumps, and chuckholes. The other thing the tire does a lot is, it has a real tendency to tramline. It's not good when you're trying to keep you vehicle in your lane and then all of the sudden it wants to go into another one or go the opposite way. It's not due to road conditions either, because the road is nice and smooth. There are much better tires out there for the money and these aren't one of them. I would much rather have the tires you have currently over the P-Zero Neros.
So, don't buy these tires if I were you, but look into the Michilen Pilot Sport A/S tires. That's the tire that I really would like to have for an all around tire.
Go and check out the Tire Rack for reviews, comments, and surveys.

Where did you pick up the R4S pads for your Ody anyway?


Nitropress, make sure you use higher tire pressures with this tire because of the softer sidewall.

I think your issue is the tires. Sounds like a bad tread pattern for several cars once they start to break in.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Great advice, again, move along unless you have some ideas.

Was thinking about making a suggestion.

Until I realized that dry humor wasn't going to play well, so I'll just see myself out instead.


Norm

 

[Fly2High]

I have the feeling you will find several Summer only tires will tramline. Might be a bit of the 'Nature of the Beast' It can be mitigated to some extent but they will never ride like the touring tire your Accord has.

Sell the tiers or wait till they wear out and get a set of all season performance tires. Had good success with a set of Continental DWS 06 on a previous car and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone again.

 

[R5L]

As much as you may not want to hear it I suspect raising tire pressure by 25% is a bandaid, not a fix. Possibly a dangerous one.
You say you changed the wheels? If so it's possible that you have changed the suspension geometry enough that the original alignment settings are no longer valid. That could cause your issue. I don't know enough about the intricacies of suspension to make specific suggestions but I know that drastically over inflating tires is not a proper fix.

You could be right. I went from stock 18” to stock 19” from a 2019. Through some online reading I had an idea that suspension geometry could have been changed when I got the new wheels but just like you I have zero clue about that stuff and was hoping someone on here had a similar issue and could point me in right direction. But, I had assumed that going from stock to stock, not changing anything else should have been fine and was fine for months. Inflating to 40 is obviously not ideal, but it’s not going to remain starting point, over time obviously it will lose pressure and start dropping, I am keeping my middle screen only on tire pressure. So, as it loses pressure I will be able to monitor if/when the issue comes back again, who knows it could drive just fine until it hits 34, so now 34-35 would be my new top number, which I am definitely more comfortable with. But what I do know is that I had the new wheels since like April, tire guys pumped them full of air up to like 37-38 if I am recalling correctly and the issue didn’t arise until it dropped down to 32ish. Now, my sticker on my car says 32, but I have zero clue what the sticker says on the 2019 mustang from whom I got these wheels from, so if anybody out there has a 2019 with black accent package wheels and Pirelli p zero neros and can tell me what your sticker says for psi, that could be very helpful if is says anything other than 32. Thank you for the feedback sir.

 

[R5L]

I have the feeling you will find several Summer only tires will tramline. Might be a bit of the 'Nature of the Beast' It can be mitigated to some extent but they will never ride like the touring tire your Accord has.

Sell the ties or wait till they wear out and get a set of all season performance tires. Had good success with a set of Continental DWS 06 on a previous car and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend to anyone again.

Thanks for the feedback, I wasn’t aware this could be a common issue with summer only tires. Could this go in line with lower pressure causing the issue to become more significant? I have not been too big a fan of these pirellis, so when they wear out I do plan on upgrading to a nice set.

 

[Fly2High]

Your tires only changed by 0.3" in diameter. That small change is within wear limits of a tire and is also within the recommended 3% circumference difference. Also, you added only 3/4" of width to your tire. That too is not enough to matter. Add in the PP2 uses 255 up front with 275 and the PP2 uses 305/30 all around, I think you will be fine. I think the Eco with the Perf Pack has 255 all around. Call a tire shop and ask them for the differences between your alignment settings and the Eco with Perf pack.

I purchased a set of 275/35R19 winter tires for my GT PP2 which came with 305/30R19. I have no issues and did not get any alignment changes. I believe those tires differ from stock by more than your difference.

Use a tire calc like this one when changing sizes: http://www.tire-size-calculator.info/

It helps with offset, spacer and shows you how tires change, speedo difference, etc.

All the best.

 

[kiksbutt]

I would fire your mechanic If he accepted any money for that solution and let you leave like that. All you did was overinflate your tires rounding out the tread and reduce the contact patch. I have a PP2. They have 305/30R19 tires on them. Far wider than your tires and yet my recommended PSI is 33. Then again, my car weighs more so the 1 PSI difference could be attributed to that. All you will get is more wear along the centerline of the tire and less traction. Yes, My PP2 really tram lined when I had the Cup 2 tires on it. It was significantly reduced when I went over to the PS 4S. It is still there but very marginal. Still with the stock tire size of 305/30R19.

If you need to overinflate your tires then go back to stock. You are really gaining nothing. It also could be the tire and kind of tread it has causing it. Switching tires could help but, if the width is simply too much, you will still get some.

Did a quick search on tramlining and those tires and this is what I found

On a fiat 500 thread they say those tires tramline badly when they start to wear (post #5)
http://www.fiat500usaforum.com/showthread.php?28986-Pirelli-PZero-Nero-s-LOUD!!!!






Here is a guy with a WRX with tramlining issues with those tires(post #6)
https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1841569



Now, this could be the same guy.


Here is a corvette complaining of the same thing(Post 12)
https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c5-general/1230890-who-here-has-pirelli-p-zero-neros.html






This is a guy with an Integra Type R who also has tramlining (post 14)
https://www.odyclub.com/threads/pirelli-p-zero-neros.16301/





I think your issue is the tires. Sounds like a bad tread pattern for several cars once they start to break in.

I agree with this post. I also have PP2 and got bad tramline with SC2 and swapped it to Cooper RS3, much better but still there. After I swapped tires, I had vibration in steering wheel. Took it to dealer and they rebalanced the tires but it didn't get rid of it. They overinflated the tires to 40 as well and it did reduce it. But I lowered it back to 33psi myself since I wasn't comfortable with bandaid fix.

Steering wheel still vibrates here and there, but I attribute it to tires. It's not that bad that I need to have it looked at again. I'll swap another set of wheels/tires soon to see if issue is still there.

 

[Bikeman315]

Was thinking about making a suggestion.

Until I realized that dry humor wasn't going to play well, so I'll just see myself out instead.


Norm

Norm, your insight is always welcome. If OP doesn't like it we'll have him removed from the forum!

Only kidding Ryan.

 

[Bikeman315]

Thanks for the feedback, I wasn’t aware this could be a common issue with summer only tires. Could this go in line with lower pressure causing the issue to become more significant? I have not been too big a fan of these pirellis, so when they wear out I do plan on upgrading to a nice set.

Ryan, I thought you said the tires and wheels came off a black accent package car. Those should be all season tires not summer. The alignment specs should be virtually identical for a +1 setup like yours.

I have these tires on my CS. 6500 miles and absolutely no issues, even when pushed. Would i buy them again, heck no. AS4's will be the next tires I buy.

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