So the new gen7 whipple numbers are out........

[Angrey]

Side curiosity question, how do you like the MOTEC M150? Did you mainly get it for better torque management during launch/traction control?

Has it been worth it for you personally?

The shortest answer is, it's an even value. It's incredibly expensive, but incredibly great. Or said the other way, it's AWESOME, but it's EXPENSIVE.

Part of the huge cost is the proprietary harness they create specifically for your application. It's enough to make you fall out of your chair. But I was "told" that there's no way everything will work properly if you don't go through them to do the jumper.

The rest of it, my only complaint is that I'm having issues with my power steering and we're trying to solve why it's heavy now.

But the rest is pretty remarkable.

True flex fuel on a high output PD setup (small pulley). Full control over things like flex fuel sensor input, MAP, fuel pressure sensor, PWM controlled pumps, even things like the intercooler pump control (I have an interchiller system), etc. It has not only wild controls over torque output (by gear and rpm), a "3 stage" launch control, but incredible engine protections and fail safes as well (things like oil pressure drops, fuel pressure drops, AFR spikes, etc).

I'm curious as to how close PCMtech is going to be able to get with all the functionality. It seems that they're able to achieve the same level of flex fuel capability, however, I haven't seen (doesn't mean it isn't capable) the same level of sophistication with respect to custom mapping of the torque (by gear). Not only is the MOTEC approach MUCH more proactive in managing traction (you can pre-limit how much torque the car is capable of making at given rpm in a given gear) but it also monitor wheel slip "aims" that you can set how much you want (right now the various "levels" are 1 mph wheel slip up to 10 mph but I can adjust those to my liking or just select from that menu).

There are a couple of drawbacks. You lose your OE computer. Which means no more adjustments via FORSCAN. I think there are SOME adjustments that can be made in the M1Tune but many of them are rolled up into MOTEC's firmware for the specific vehicle. And I'm pretty sure adjusting any of those is practically out. What does that mean? It means if you have a custom FORSCAN build for anything like lights or chimes or alarms or stereo stuff, that's all reverted back to what it was stock. I also lose the ability to run my Ngauge as a nice 6 sensor gauge monitor (but MOTEC is doing all that for me now).

In short, it's like "You'll win the lottery, but you have to lose one of your arms or legs."

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[nnnnnn]

The shortest answer is, it's an even value. It's incredibly expensive, but incredibly great. Or said the other way, it's AWESOME, but it's EXPENSIVE.

Part of the huge cost is the proprietary harness they create specifically for your application. It's enough to make you fall out of your chair. But I was "told" that there's no way everything will work properly if you don't go through them to do the jumper.

The rest of it, my only complaint is that I'm having issues with my power steering and we're trying to solve why it's heavy now.

But the rest is pretty remarkable.

True flex fuel on a high output PD setup (small pulley). Full control over things like flex fuel sensor input, MAP, fuel pressure sensor, PWM controlled pumps, even things like the intercooler pump control (I have an interchiller system), etc. It has not only wild controls over torque output (by gear and rpm), a "3 stage" launch control, but incredible engine protections and fail safes as well (things like oil pressure drops, fuel pressure drops, AFR spikes, etc).

I'm curious as to how close PCMtech is going to be able to get with all the functionality. It seems that they're able to achieve the same level of flex fuel capability, however, I haven't seen (doesn't mean it isn't capable) the same level of sophistication with respect to custom mapping of the torque (by gear). Not only is the MOTEC approach MUCH more proactive in managing traction (you can pre-limit how much torque the car is capable of making at given rpm in a given gear) but it also monitor wheel slip "aims" that you can set how much you want (right now the various "levels" are 1 mph wheel slip up to 10 mph but I can adjust those to my liking or just select from that menu).

There are a couple of drawbacks. You lose your OE computer. Which means no more adjustments via FORSCAN. I think there are SOME adjustments that can be made in the M1Tune but many of them are rolled up into MOTEC's firmware for the specific vehicle. And I'm pretty sure adjusting any of those is practically out. What does that mean? It means if you have a custom FORSCAN build for anything like lights or chimes or alarms or stereo stuff, that's all reverted back to what it was stock. I also lose the ability to run my Ngauge as a nice 6 sensor gauge monitor (but MOTEC is doing all that for me now).

In short, it's like "You'll win the lottery, but you have to lose one of your arms or legs."

Thank you very much, it's so hard to find stuff out there. I've been recently intrigued by Motec, making bigger power eventually and using Motec to manage that much power for drivability and not crashing. I've always restrained myself from going with bigger power over 1000whp since the OEM traction management system is crap and spinning isn't winning. At my current power level of 860whp, I enjoy the car a lot but I'll likely to use something like Motec to manage bigger power, torque and traction in the future when I do that.

Also who did you go through for it? Install and tuning? Just for future reference for me.

Thanks

 

[Angrey]

Thank you very much, it's so hard to find stuff out there. I've been recently intrigued by Motec, making bigger power eventually and using Motec to manage that much power for drivability and not crashing. I've always retrained myself from going with bigger power over 1000whp since the OEM traction management system is crap and spinning isn't winning. At my current power level of 860whp, I enjoy the car a lot but I'll likely to use something like Motec to manage bigger power, torque and traction in the future when I do that.

Aso who is you go through for it? Install and tuning? Just for future reference for me.

Thanks

That's probably another drawback is that many/most tuners either don't have experience or aren't even willing to attempt it.

Johnson Tuning is who partners with Fathouse, but they're in Indiana (and they don't answer phone calls or return phone calls, I'm pretty sure I emailed them as well but can't remember).

In Florida at the time, no one would touch it except for Induction Performance (and they're more of a Supra/Import shop). I reached out to several, PBD wasn't doing them at the time, but is now apparently.

The challenge is finding someone close to you that does MOTEC systems. MOTEC is heavily involved with each build, so if they've done a MOTEC before, they can probably figure out the install with a mustang and the rest of directly coordinated with MOTEC for the tuning/integration.

You should honestly reach out to PCM tech and see what features of Traction control they can implement. I honestly don't know, but if they can work out flex fuel and other elements, they might be able to match what the MOTEC does (or get most of it).

 

[HKusp]

That's probably another drawback is that many/most tuners either don't have experience or aren't even willing to attempt it.

Johnson Tuning is who partners with Fathouse, but they're in Indiana (and they don't answer phone calls or return phone calls, I'm pretty sure I emailed them as well but can't remember).

In Florida at the time, no one would touch it except for Induction Performance (and they're more of a Supra/Import shop). I reached out to several, PBD wasn't doing them at the time, but is now apparently.

The challenge is finding someone close to you that does MOTEC systems. MOTEC is heavily involved with each build, so if they've done a MOTEC before, they can probably figure out the install with a mustang and the rest of directly coordinated with MOTEC for the tuning/integration.

You should honestly reach out to PCM tech and see what features of Traction control they can implement. I honestly don't know, but if they can work out flex fuel and other elements, they might be able to match what the MOTEC does (or get most of it).

@engineermike I believe he has some knowledge on this subject. If my undrstanding is correct, you CAN limit torque by gear using HP Tuners as well as PCMTech, but he'll be better able to explain.

 

[nnnnnn]

That's probably another drawback is that many/most tuners either don't have experience or aren't even willing to attempt it.

Johnson Tuning is who partners with Fathouse, but they're in Indiana (and they don't answer phone calls or return phone calls, I'm pretty sure I emailed them as well but can't remember).

In Florida at the time, no one would touch it except for Induction Performance (and they're more of a Supra/Import shop). I reached out to several, PBD wasn't doing them at the time, but is now apparently.

The challenge is finding someone close to you that does MOTEC systems. MOTEC is heavily involved with each build, so if they've done a MOTEC before, they can probably figure out the install with a mustang and the rest of directly coordinated with MOTEC for the tuning/integration.

You should honestly reach out to PCM tech and see what features of Traction control they can implement. I honestly don't know, but if they can work out flex fuel and other elements, they might be able to match what the MOTEC does (or get most of it).

Thanks Angrey. Apologies for any typos, phone typing just sucks.

 

[mejohn50]

@engineermike I believe he has some knowledge on this subject. If my undrstanding is correct, you CAN limit torque by gear using HP Tuners as well as PCMTech, but he'll be better able to explain.

Torque by gear works with OEM tables, at least in the gen 3 PCM. It’s not exclusive to a tuning platform, it’s OEM logic.

 

[Rolls]

Torque by gear already exists from the OEM and can be configured to work extremely well. Your steering will still work and you'll have about 10k extra in your pocket.

 

[Angrey]

Torque by gear works with OEM tables, at least in the gen 3 PCM. It’s not exclusive to a tuning platform, it’s OEM logic.

You're singing my song. The MOTEC doesn't install any new sensors on the vehicle. It simply uses the information more effectively. The OEM strategy is reactive, it waits for the driver to get into trouble then steps in and when it does, the reaction is harsh and inappropriate. (which is why most people turn it off, either partially through holding the button down or completely via unplugging the dyno plug). The MOTEC strategy pre-limits the output for gear and RPM (proactive) and then when it senses wheel slip, applies graduated responses to control the over torque (first timing, then throttle blade, then cylinder cuts). The MOTEC also allows for instantaneous adjustment/modes to alter (increase or decrease) the control (adding a 3rd layer). So not only is it way more proactive for user chosen conditions, when it does implement controls, they're helpful rather than drastic and shut everything down. The result is a system that's useful and assisting rather than annoying and crippling. As a result, not only does the driver NOT remove it, they can rely upon it.

 

[Angrey]

Torque by gear already exists from the OEM and can be configured to work extremely well. Your steering will still work and you'll have about 10k extra in your pocket.

Output by gear can be achieved for most people already through boost controllers. The fact that the OE can do it is nice (especially for Positive displacement guys). But that has to be "dialed in" for the conditions (suspension and tire setup, track or road conditions). The next level of control is slip aim (turning the guard rail up or down based off how much the rear tires are slipping compared to the front). That allows for broad(er) setup of the output by gear/rpm and then fine tuning of the control via the slip aim. If PCMtech had been available when I started this, I'd have examined it very hard (and probably even went that route). But there are other things that MOTEC brings to the table beyond the sophisticated traction strategies. The idle configuration for instance, my car purrs like a kitten now, no more annoying cold start tables to deal with or multiple tables for dealing with A/C on or off. With a huge throttle body and a small pulley, the Ford OE strategies are frankly way too overcomplex and I spent hours with my previous tuner trying to get it as good as it could be (but never OEM quality). Seems like PCMtech can achieve most of features at a fraction of the cost.

 

[mejohn50]

You're singing my song. The MOTEC doesn't install any new sensors on the vehicle. It simply uses the information more effectively. The OEM strategy is reactive, it waits for the driver to get into trouble then steps in and when it does, the reaction is harsh and inappropriate. (which is why most people turn it off, either partially through holding the button down or completely via unplugging the dyno plug). The MOTEC strategy pre-limits the output for gear and RPM (proactive) and then when it senses wheel slip, applies graduated responses to control the over torque (first timing, then throttle blade, then cylinder cuts). The MOTEC also allows for instantaneous adjustment/modes to alter (increase or decrease) the control (adding a 3rd layer). So not only is it way more proactive for user chosen conditions, when it does implement controls, they're helpful rather than drastic and shut everything down. The result is a system that's useful and assisting rather than annoying and crippling. As a result, not only does the driver NOT remove it, they can rely upon it.

The OEM torque by gear logic requires no sensors and it’s proactive as well. It’s not traction control, which MOTEC excels at. It’s a torque limit based on gear, and it works very well considering it’s OEM logic. Just like you’re saying, it “pre-limits” the output based on gear and RPM depending on how it’s set up (since it can be done several different ways as shown below).

This works independently from traction control. I’ll admit MOTEC’s *traction control* is light years better than the OEM logic, and I’d love to have the MOTEC traction control. Though, we haven’t spent any time digging into the OEM traction control logic, so who knows what we could do with that, assuming we have access since some (or all) of it might live in the ABS module.

Here are a few of the tables that exist that can accomplish the OEM torque by gear function.

 

[Angrey]

The OEM torque by gear logic requires no sensors and it’s proactive as well. It’s not traction control, which MOTEC excels at. It’s a torque limit based on gear, and it works very well considering it’s OEM logic. Just like you’re saying, it “pre-limits” the output based on gear and RPM depending on how it’s set up (since it can be done several different ways as shown below).

This works independently from traction control. I’ll admit MOTEC’s *traction control* is light years better than the OEM logic, and I’d love to have the MOTEC traction control. Though, we haven’t spent any time digging into the OEM traction control logic, so who knows what we could do with that, assuming we have access since some (or all) of it might live in the ABS module.

Here are a few of the tables that exist that can accomplish the OEM torque by gear function.

That's what I was referring to mostly, the TC strategy. The torque control works in conjunction with that (the proactive part). All the inputs are there to make a very safe and FAST (spinnin' ain't winnin') setup, it's just Ford Engineers chose to make it reactionary and harsh (we could speculate if the attorneys were involved).

If you wait until the delta V is out of control before you step in and if you step in by drastically (over correctingly) cutting power through cylinder cuts, then not only is it going to be less effective, in some circumstance it might actually be dangerous and counterintuitive.

The output by gear is something I wish more tuners would employ and explore. Seems that it's all there, they simply don't address it or attempt to "tune" or calibrate it.

 

[Angrey]

This is the level of sophistication you get with MOTEC..........

Beyond things like a 3 stage launch control (which allows custom setup of the launch RPM, the initial dig out and then ramp in), the maps are all extremely easy to "tune" and adjust in the car. So beyond the modes and wheel slip, I can go in and quickly change the torque and throttle limits (if the traction control is banging 2nd and 3rd stages too hard or it's not reaching TC limits at all). I can quickly change the wheel slip aim (as you can see right now we have it from 3.5 mph up to 9 mph depending on the mode) with the simple user selected input on the steering wheel cruise button and tachometer gauge.

Seems like PCMtech can achieve most of that for a much lower price. Like I said, if it had been an option at the time, I'd have probably went that way. But there's no denying their sauce is formidable.

A cheeky quote I heard. "Millionaires run MOTEC. Billionaires run Life Racing." I'm neither But I just needed a system that could keep 900 ft-lbs torque multiplied through the trans and rear end under control and with a ginormous throttle body and the responsiveness of a flat plane crank, it was just too wild and unruly to modulate my right foot.

 

[Rolls]

Output by gear can be achieved for most people already through boost controllers. The fact that the OE can do it is nice (especially for Positive displacement guys). But that has to be "dialed in" for the conditions (suspension and tire setup, track or road conditions).

You could multitune this table to have 10 different levels of "torque by gear" right now with our software. Or you could multitune the "ethanol load limit" table with dummy numbers in there to get 10 different load limits (this wouldn't be per gear though).

Ultimately we want to add a "load by gear" along with a spark retard vs wheel slip advanced traction control function to the software. Load by gear is better than throttle by gear, as if you change your pulley size or anything else in the engine it takes this into account and means you don't need to adjust the setting as much.

 

[Angrey]

Recently saw an IG video with C8 owners lamenting about the struggles.

The PCM is largely cracked and open but they're still dealing with severe issues with the "TCM" for the transmission (which is still very locked). So basically you can spend a bunch of money upgrading your power plant and tune it but it ends up throwing the car into limp mode quite often because of the torque protections (not unlike the GT500 in some situations). Apparently you can upgrade clutches and add some piggy back modules to trick things but it still doesn't fully resolve all the issues.

4 years later and the car still isn't fully open for unlimited modifications. It's unclear how much of the stand alone market is available to them, but it's got to be better than the 16 injectors on the late model coyotes.

 

[80FoxCoupe]

The shortest answer is, it's an even value. It's incredibly expensive, but incredibly great. Or said the other way, it's AWESOME, but it's EXPENSIVE.

Part of the huge cost is the proprietary harness they create specifically for your application. It's enough to make you fall out of your chair. But I was "told" that there's no way everything will work properly if you don't go through them to do the jumper.

The rest of it, my only complaint is that I'm having issues with my power steering and we're trying to solve why it's heavy now.

But the rest is pretty remarkable.

True flex fuel on a high output PD setup (small pulley). Full control over things like flex fuel sensor input, MAP, fuel pressure sensor, PWM controlled pumps, even things like the intercooler pump control (I have an interchiller system), etc. It has not only wild controls over torque output (by gear and rpm), a "3 stage" launch control, but incredible engine protections and fail safes as well (things like oil pressure drops, fuel pressure drops, AFR spikes, etc).

I'm curious as to how close PCMtech is going to be able to get with all the functionality. It seems that they're able to achieve the same level of flex fuel capability, however, I haven't seen (doesn't mean it isn't capable) the same level of sophistication with respect to custom mapping of the torque (by gear). Not only is the MOTEC approach MUCH more proactive in managing traction (you can pre-limit how much torque the car is capable of making at given rpm in a given gear) but it also monitor wheel slip "aims" that you can set how much you want (right now the various "levels" are 1 mph wheel slip up to 10 mph but I can adjust those to my liking or just select from that menu).

There are a couple of drawbacks. You lose your OE computer. Which means no more adjustments via FORSCAN. I think there are SOME adjustments that can be made in the M1Tune but many of them are rolled up into MOTEC's firmware for the specific vehicle. And I'm pretty sure adjusting any of those is practically out. What does that mean? It means if you have a custom FORSCAN build for anything like lights or chimes or alarms or stereo stuff, that's all reverted back to what it was stock. I also lose the ability to run my Ngauge as a nice 6 sensor gauge monitor (but MOTEC is doing all that for me now).

In short, it's like "You'll win the lottery, but you have to lose one of your arms or legs."

Great info right there. I'd like to do the m150 at some point. Have you worked thru traction control yet?

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