Road and Track Article on the PP2 - It's not a track car

[Norm Peterson]

It's actually legal to under-rate a tire's treadwear. What's not legal is overstating it. If you've designed a tire and testing predicts that it will last 2.5 times as long as the control tire, you can assign any value up to and including 250. But you can't give it a 260.


Norm

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[racrguy]

Tread wear rating has become a complete joke and bureaucratic nightmare especially in competition rings. 200 vs 300 vs 500 vs 49839039292...all it's saying is a 400 will last "twice as long as a 200". I could make a tire that's as sticky as Ho Ho R7's, give em some tread patterns to pass DOT, call em 200 and then make a tire that's pure streetable in the range of a Conti ExtremeContact Sport and call them 400 and you know what I'd still be right even though it's and absolutely ridiculous and unethical judgement call.

Pretty much. I wanna know what the durometer ratings are for each tire.

 

[Eritas]

Tread wear rating has become a complete joke and bureaucratic nightmare especially in competition rings. 200 vs 300 vs 500 vs 49839039292...all it's saying is a 400 will last "twice as long as a 200". I could make a tire that's as sticky as Ho Ho R7's, give em some tread patterns to pass DOT, call em 200 and then make a tire that's pure streetable in the range of a Conti ExtremeContact Sport and call them 400 and you know what I'd still be right even though it's and absolutely ridiculous and unethical judgement call.

Agreed.

Tire companies can pretty much put whatever TW rating they want. Look into how those "tests" for TW are done. TW is just a sales and marketing tool.

 

[mustang5o]

The supercar 3 tires are sticky AF. Compare them against the PS4 tires on the 2018 PP1:

"As for burnouts, the orange Ford literally, figuratively, and ever other way smoked the Chevy. In a way, this is actually good news for the 1LE. Here's why: The Camaro can do about one, maybe two decent burnouts, and then the Goodyears get hot to the point where they "grip up," to steal a term from Randy Pobst. It's enough grip that 455 lb-ft of twisting force has trouble breaking 'em loose. This is slightly surprising."

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/che...-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/

Compare the supercars to the SC2 tires and you'll see they both have similar treadwear, similar tread depth and similar weight. The main difference in these two tires is the title the manufacturers give them. Just because one is labeled a "track/street" tire and the other a "Extreme Performance" summer tires does not mean they don't perform similarly. There is a ton of overlap in these tires. Hell, my "ultra high performance" Indy firehawk 500 tires have better traction and are more predictable than the "max performance" pirelli tires.

Comparing the 1LE vs PP1 is a bigger difference even if they had the same tire. According to what I've been reading the F1 3 compares more closely to PS4 not the SC2's. I've also heard those Indy Firehawk tires are over achievers. If I needed to replace my Pirellis I'd be considering them for street tires along with PS4's, Hankook RS4's, and RE71R's. For the money the Firehawks seem like a great deal.

There are quite a few things like this that I've heard Randy say that make me scratch my head. He's an excellent driver, but he's no engineer. The tires are marketed as a street tire, but in reality (Like Millhouse said), they are very close in every aspect to a SC2. also, are you sure you looked at the F1 Supercar3? I'm pretty sure the F1 Assymetrical has a 220tw, but the supercar3 should be a 200tw, and that's what the 1LE has. SC2 should be around 190-200.

Also, yes, RE71R is an excellent tire, especially for the price.

As confirmed by Norm the F1 3 is 220, SC2 180. They do have an F1 3R at 100 but that is not what's on the SS 1LE. Plus as has been said, TW is not the last word in tires.

Here's a good article on tires
https://motoiq.com/How-to-PROPERLY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE/

 

[williamwally]

I'd be interested to learn how aggressive the PSC2's on the PP2 are; seeing that not all of the same tires are equal:

...
The 19 GT350's PSC2's are not as track-focused as the GT350R's (PSC2's can vary GREATLY in size, tread depth, tread design, construction, compound, etc...
They're not all the same, and are actually far from it). They're also not as wide.
....

 

[millhouse]

Well I presume Randy knows his tires pretty well and when he said "This Camaro SS 1LE is a terrific car to drive on track—almost unbelievably good considering it's on a Goodyear Eagle F1 tire, which is a pure street tire. It's not an R-compound track tire." I wanted to believe him. When I look them up on tire rack the Goodyear is listed at 220TW and under Extreme Performance Summer category vs the SC2 180TW and listed under Streetable Track and Competition. I know tread wear doesn't tell the whole story as I've been told the RE71R 200TW Extreme Performance Summer is an overachiever...at least for a few laps. So you might be right. Later in the article Randy throws in "the Mustang's twitchy entry attitude and its pesky stability control system were no match for the composure and confidence supplied by the Camaro SS 1LE—even on a street tire. Can you imagine what the Camaro would do on a Pilot Sport Cup 2?" Reinforces that he believes the SC2 is a better track tire than the Eagle F1.

The supercar 3 tires are sticky AF. Compare them against the PS4 tires on the 2018 PP1:

"As for burnouts, the orange Ford literally, figuratively, and ever other way smoked the Chevy. In a way, this is actually good news for the 1LE. Here's why: The Camaro can do about one, maybe two decent burnouts, and then the Goodyears get hot to the point where they "grip up," to steal a term from Randy Pobst. It's enough grip that 455 lb-ft of twisting force has trouble breaking 'em loose. This is slightly surprising."

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/che...-ford-mustang-gt-performance-pack-comparison/

Compare the supercars to the SC2 tires and you'll see they both have similar treadwear, similar tread depth and similar weight. The main difference in these two tires is the title the manufacuturers give them. Just because one is labeled a "track/street" tire and the other a "Extreme Performance" summer tires does not mean they don't perform similarly. There is a ton of overlap in these tires. Hell, my "ultra high performance" Indy firehawk 500 tires have better traction and are more predictible than the "max performance" pirelli tires.

Comparing the 1LE vs PP1 is a bigger difference even if they had the same tire. According to what I've been reading the F1 3 compares more closely to PS4 not the SC2's. I've also heard those Indy Firehawk tires are over achievers. If I needed to replace my Pirellis I'd be considering them for street tires along with PS4's, Hankook RS4's, and RE71R's. For the money the Firehawks seem like a great deal.



As confirmed by Norm the F1 3 is 220, SC2 180. They do have an F1 3R at 100 but that is not what's on the SS 1LE. Plus as has been said, TW is not the last word in tires.

Here's a good article on tires
https://motoiq.com/How-to-PROPERLY-select-and-size-TIRES-for-PERFORMANCE/

Go read on the camaro forum. Their F13 tires are running better lap times than the SC2 tires. The PS4 tires have way more tread depth and are a 30,000 mile warrantied tire. They are not even close to the F13 in traction or tread life.

 

[mustang5o]

Go read on the camaro forum.[/QUOTE

Hello no . I'll take your word for it. I supposed that could be, as some have said, that there are actually different versions of each tire as well.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Hello no . I'll take your word for it.

He's giving you legit info, and the Camaro driver he's referring to is not a newbie to track driving.

I supposed that could be, as some have said, that there are actually different versions of each tire as well.

This is quite common. For some tire models there are N-spec tires for Porsche, Star-specs for BMW, TPCs for GM, M-specs for Mercedes, and K-specs for Ferrari. None of which are identical to each other or to the general-spec tires intended for the rest of us even in the same sizes.


Norm

 

[mustang5o]

He's giving you legit info, and the Camaro driver he's referring to is not a newbie to track driving.

I made sure to include the hysterical laughter emoji because I hold no real grudges against Camaro's. Heck my first car was a 6 cyl Camaro. Well I hold one grudge...the SS 1LE is a better track car by a wide margin. I just wish Ford would try a bit harder to battle the Camaro dollar for dallar. Not say if people want a track car they should get a GT350. That being said, I won't be spending time on a Camaro forum. I expect to keep driving Mustangs. Even before I owned the Camaro, I wanted a Mustang.

I did find this bit interesting from the same MT article @millhouse was quoting.

"The 1LE's six-piston binders haul it to a dead stop from 60 mph in 93 feet. That's world class. The GT, which also has six-piston calipers, needs 104 feet. Keep in mind that both cars are on similar performance rubber..."

That's after they talked about how much stickier F1 3's are during their burnout discussion. Apparently none of the MT staff nor Randy Pobst know their tires very well???

 

[millhouse]

I made sure to include the hysterical laughter emoji because I hold no real grudges against Camaro's. Heck my first car was a 6 cyl Camaro. Well I hold one grudge...the SS 1LE is a better track car by a wide margin. I just wish Ford would try a bit harder to battle the Camaro dollar for dallar. Not say if people want a track car they should get a GT350. That being said, I won't be spending time on a Camaro forum. I expect to keep driving Mustangs. Even before I owned the Camaro, I wanted a Mustang.

I did find this bit interesting from the same MT article @millhouse was quoting.

"The 1LE's six-piston binders haul it to a dead stop from 60 mph in 93 feet. That's world class. The GT, which also has six-piston calipers, needs 104 feet. Keep in mind that both cars are on similar performance rubber..."

That's after they talked about how much stickier F1 3's are during their burnout discussion. Apparently none of the MT staff nor Randy Pobst know their tires very well???

They are going by name brand recognition only. The good year tires are a 10k-15k mile tire. They have 7/32 tread. The PS4 tires have a 9.5/32 tread and actually have a 30k mile warranty (the Goodyear has none).

In the GTPP2 comparison, both the 1LE and the GTPP2 stopped from 60 in 94 feet. The article you are referencing was the PP1 (with PS4 tires) to 1LE comparison. Here is the new one (which includes the PP1 in the table for reference).

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/

 

[mustang5o]

They are going by name brand recognition only. The good year tires are a 10k-15k mile tire. They have 7/32 tread. The PS4 tires have a 9.5/32 tread and actually have a 30k mile warranty (the Goodyear has none).

In the GTPP2 comparison, both the 1LE and the GTPP2 stopped from 60 in 94 feet. The article you are referencing was the PP1 (with PS4 tires) to 1LE comparison. Here is the new one (which includes the PP1 in the table for reference).

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/for...t-performance-pack-level-2-first-test-review/

I referenced that article because it's the one you linked in your initial response to me (so I read it). The one that you quoted them talking about burnouts and the F1 3 "grip up".

 

[millhouse]

I referenced that article because it's the one you linked in your initial response to me (so I read it). The one that you quoted them talking about burnouts and the F1 3 "grip up".

Indeed I did. I think I forgot what I was trying to do there.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I made sure to include the hysterical laughter emoji because I hold no real grudges against Camaro's. Heck my first car was a 6 cyl Camaro. Well I hold one grudge...the SS 1LE is a better track car by a wide margin. I just wish Ford would try a bit harder to battle the Camaro dollar for dallar. Not say if people want a track car they should get a GT350. That being said, I won't be spending time on a Camaro forum. I expect to keep driving Mustangs. Even before I owned the Camaro, I wanted a Mustang.

Guess I missed your intent . . . that sort of thing happens. Personally, I'd aim your grudge more at Ford for consistently letting the top-cornering 5.0-powered GT fall short of the SS/1LE. Hopefully once the GT350 is history and a GT500 squares off against the ZL1 and ZL1/1LE that they'll loosen the reins on the GT/PP2.

"The 1LE's six-piston binders haul it to a dead stop from 60 mph in 93 feet. That's world class. The GT, which also has six-piston calipers, needs 104 feet. Keep in mind that both cars are on similar performance rubber..."

That's after they talked about how much stickier F1 3's are during their burnout discussion. Apparently none of the MT staff nor Randy Pobst know their tires very well???

Or people on the MT staff have forgotten how to read for technical content and from there make sure that the story remains consistent with itself. Reading only one or two sentences at a time and forgetting about them by the time you've finished reading the next one can allow that to happen.


FWIW, for as long as I've been on car enthusiast forums I've felt that sticking to marque-specific forums exclusively makes it harder to see what the other guys are doing that just might be better than what your guys are doing. Makes it harder to see similarities or go against the collective opinions on forums that cater to one particular car. But easier to get caught up going with popular modifications/brand names and conventional build paths rather than what might fit you better individually. When I joined my first Mustang-specific forum - in 2001, six full years before seriously considering the idea of actually buying any Mustang - I was driving this Chevy

and I didn't even particularly like the then-current Fox-based SN95.


Norm

 

[mustang5o]

Indeed I did. I think I forgot what I was trying to do there.

That's OK. This whole thread has been side tracked a few times.

Guess I missed your intent . . . that sort of thing happens. Personally, I'd aim your grudge more at Ford for consistently letting the top-cornering 5.0-powered GT fall short of the SS/1LE. Hopefully once the GT350 is history and a GT500 squares off against the ZL1 and ZL1/1LE that they'll loosen the reins on the GT/PP2.
Norm

Yeah, I have a little grudge against Ford as well. I do read the articles about other cars and I have been on the Chevy site building out a car and getting frustrated to see what's all included with the SS1LE vs PP2 for the same money. I've thought about test driving one but figure I better not. I still prefer the Mustang looks and the guys I've met in local clubs, track days, etc.. I also know that as far as track use goes, a lot of it comes down to driver. A buddy of mine has a 12 Boss with some mods and will beat most non-pro drivers around the local tracks no matter what they are driving. If you put the seat time in you can make a lot more gains then just switching cars. Plus...TIRES!!! I dropped a lot going for Pirelli PZero to Pirelli take off slicks. I probably should go back to street tires and get my basics down a little more.

 

[WingZombie]

x2 on no need for software changes, but I wouldn't even change the sensor. Just heat wrap the exhaust beside the diff, swap for a higher viscosity diff fluid, and you should be good. The first warning won't send you into limp mode, and I've only heard of a couple people ever hitting the second warning or dumping diff fluid all over the track. If you're going to invest in new sensors and software changes and stuff like that, save yourself some time and spend $1k on a diff cooler

I'm battling the diff temps in my '16. Switched fluid and wrapped exhaust. Depending on the track, I can get about 15-16 minutes into a session and it throws a diff temp warning. I'm trying to avoid spending the money on the diff cooler, mainly because I don't want to deal with having a fan, pump, lines, etc hanging out back since it's not a race car and gets street driven. If you track these cars, the diff temp issue is a real thing. I'm going to try and do some garage engineering in the off season to see what I can do to improve airflow in the area around the diff and make some better shielding.

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