Replaced Voodoo Engine

[stanglife]

First time I have read that a Ford employee said that the OPG "was a problem."

Oh, and I am adding you to the list as #19, so we are now up to a 6.3% failure rate among forum members...

No - it's still not the first time you've heard that from a Ford employee - because the mechanic is not an employee of Ford.

People want an explanation so badly, that they use their worldly experience to take a guess at something specific...maybe just to feel better that there's a cause they can point to. The fact is, we don't know. We don't know if the OPG goes first or second and on most of these engines, we don't even get the luxury of a teardown to know if the OPG is even failed at all.

 

[17RubyShelbyGT350]

The OPG Shuffle

I am on a very informative FB Page for those that track cars called Track Shelby 350s. https://www.facebook.com/groups/TrackShelbyGT350s/. Looks like some folks have called Ford and even asked the dealer to install the Ford Billet OPG before they put the new engine in and they said no - it will void warranty. Crazy....

I had also heard what you did re warranty issues if the OPG is replaced with a Ford Performance billet OPG. At first, I had your reaction, but now I believe I understand why they say "no." If they agreed to do this replacement, it could be interpreted s Ford's indirect, but tacit acknowledgement that there is a manufacturer problem here. Any top-notch lawyer could have a field day with this in court.

And make no mistake about, Ford takes the long view and they already know what they are going to do. And, it is not reasonable to assume that they already do not know precisely what the vast majority of engine failures are coming from, and it may be more than one cause beyond the occasional "built on Monday" engine problem.

On the other hand, what do we really know? Here are my guesses on that:

1. As said earlier, Ford already knows what the problem(s) are;
2. Ford has made a decision at this point that it is cheaper to just replace engines rather than issue any TSBs or offer any compensation (for example - extended warranties) to owners. They have done a comprehensive in-house analysis including projected failure rates, causes, costs of alternatives, including legal team costs;
3. Dealerships are as much hostage to the Corporation as the customers are in this matter;
4. Data is accumulating which is pointing to the possibility of engine failures reaching a statistically significant level, but as of now, we cannot say this;
5. We have suspicions, hypotheses, whatever, re why failures are occurring, but in reality, we don't know the cause(s);
5. Everything that is happening is the reflection of normal automotive manufacturer practice and will likely continue in the future.

And that is all that I think we know at this point.

All manufacturers pull this kinda crap. No doubt that Ford Performance did a great job of designing and testing the FPC. I am sure, that somewhere between that phase and what came off the assembly line, changes were made to cut corners here and there. Its all the bottom line. And it is not just engines. We are returning to the Mazda dealer for the THIRD time today to pick up my wife's '16 Mazda CX3 after yet another A/C replacement. So, how is it possible that after building Auto A/C systems for 60 years, they still do not know how to do it?

Or go look up the class action suit by GM owners regarding gross overheating problems with the C7 Z06 LT4 engine. It has been running for years and GM seems comfortable with paying a team of lawyers to represent them rather than admitting serious design flaws. Not that they didn't learn their lesson - kind of. That is why the new $30k more expensive ZR1 has a much larger, slower spinning supercharger and 50% more cooling capacity than the Z06.

Sometimes the corporations eventual do get caught - think "Diesel Gate." But that was about emissions, not failures of so-called "ready for track use" cars that if, they failed on track, could potentially injure the owner or another car on track.

And so it goes...

 

[tlisotta]

I had also heard what you did re warranty issues if the OPG is replaced with a Ford Performance billet OPG. At first, I had your reaction, but now I believe I understand why they say "no." If they agreed to do this replacement, it could be interpreted s Ford's indirect, but tacit acknowledgement that there is a manufacturer problem here. Any top-notch lawyer could have a field day with this in court.

And make no mistake about, Ford takes the long view and they already know what they are going to do. And, it is not reasonable to assume that they already do not know precisely what the vast majority of engine failures are coming from, and it may be more than one cause beyond the occasional "built on Monday" engine problem.

On the other hand, what do we really know? Here are my guesses on that:

1. As said earlier, Ford already knows what the problem(s) are;
2. Ford has made a decision at this point that it is cheaper to just replace engines rather than issue any TSBs or offer any compensation (for example - extended warranties) to owners. They have done a comprehensive in-house analysis including projected failure rates, causes, costs of alternatives, including legal team costs;
3. Dealerships are as much hostage to the Corporation as the customers are in this matter;
4. Data is accumulating which is pointing to the possibility of engine failures reaching a statistically significant level, but as of now, we cannot say this;
5. We have suspicions, hypotheses, whatever, re why failures are occurring, but in reality, we don't know the cause(s);
5. Everything that is happening is the reflection of normal automotive manufacturer practice and will likely continue in the future.

And that is all that I think we know at this point.

All manufacturers pull this kinda crap. No doubt that Ford Performance did a great job of designing and testing the FPC. I am sure, that somewhere between that phase and what came off the assembly line, changes were made to cut corners here and there. Its all the bottom line. And it is not just engines. We are returning to the Mazda dealer for the THIRD time today to pick up my wife's '16 Mazda CX3 after yet another A/C replacement. So, how is it possible that after building Auto A/C systems for 60 years, they still do not know how to do it?

Or go look up the class action suit by GM owners regarding gross overheating problems with the C7 Z06 LT4 engine. It has been running for years and GM seems comfortable with paying a team of lawyers to represent them rather than admitting serious design flaws. Not that they didn't learn their lesson - kind of. That is why the new $30k more expensive ZR1 has a much larger, slower spinning supercharger and 50% more cooling capacity than the Z06.

Sometimes the corporations eventual do get caught - think "Diesel Gate." But that was about emissions, not failures of so-called "ready for track use" cars that if, they failed on track, could potentially injure the owner or another car on track.

And so it goes...

Great post. Makes sense. It will be interesting to see how long the second engine lasts and if it blows if I push for a buyback, lemmon law, etc.

 

[MrCincinnati]

I love the driving experience with this car.

But Ford is Ford.. and this will surely be the last time I give them my business.

 

[nastang87xx]

I hate Jim Hackett too

 

[Wriggly]

I love the driving experience with this car.

But Ford is Ford.. and this will surely be the last time I give them my business.

I had made up my mind to never give them any more business after my 15 S550. The siren song of the Voodoo won me over. This one will definitely be the last.
They've made some great cars in the past. Heck, I bought my wife a 1998 ZX2 in June of 1997 and she drove that car for 18 years with no problems whatsoever. We gave it to our oldest daughter three years ago and it still had the original exhaust totally intact. Our daughter had to replace part of the exhaust last year.....20 years that exhaust lasted. The car is still running fine and has no body rust to speak of.

 

[dev1360]

I think that many are frustrated with the choice in material for the OPGs, but they are overlooking the hardness and resulting durability of a powdered metal gear.

The broken OPGs are caused by torsional vibration of the crank snout. It causes the gears to move inside the housing. The vibration and side loading combine to crack the brittle powdered metal gears.

Forged Steel gears are softer, which allows them to flex. But they do not have the durability of the hardened gears. That said, Many of you will have the car LONG sold and gone before you wear out a forged gear in a cast housing.

Ford did, however, determine that the cost/benefit of the OPGs were acceptable when paired with a proper crank damper and heavy clutch. It is one of the reasons the 350 has a heavy dual mass flywheel. The weight absorbs much of the vibration the FPC is prone to through firing order and RPM. Let's also not forget that Ford went with a non-traditional FPC design that actually caused more NVH than traditional FPCs due to packaging and cost of needing to run a dual plenum intake with the traditional FPC design.

 

[MrCincinnati]

I had made up my mind to never give them any more business after my 15 S550. The siren song of the Voodoo won me over. This one will definitely be the last.
They've made some great cars in the past. Heck, I bought my wife a 1998 ZX2 in June of 1997 and she drove that car for 18 years with no problems whatsoever. We gave it to our oldest daughter three years ago and it still had the original exhaust totally intact. Our daughter had to replace part of the exhaust last year.....20 years that exhaust lasted. The car is still running fine and has no body rust to speak of.

Those ZX2s were apparently amazingly reliable. There’s a VinWiki video where a buy here pay here rip off salesman talks about a customer that put 60k miles on one and never changed the oil!

Anyway - like you I had sworn off Ford due to a horrible experience with a Fusion lease awhile back. At one point I ended up pulling into the service bay with both front doors taped closed with painters tape because they wouldn’t latch. You’d think that would be a strange sight for a car still in its 36mo lease period... The service manager took one look and was like “doors won’t latch? We’ll have it fixed in a day”. apparently it was a common thing for the doors on this relatively brand new car to stop latching.

We turned that in, bought the wife a Jeep and I swore off Ford forever. Then the voodoo.

Bumper falling off? No problem, I bought it for the motor.
$70k car with a rental car paint job? No problem, I bought it for the motor.
A/C destined to fail? That sucks but.. I bought it for the motor.
Engine failures following a common pattern? Well damn.

Never again Ford.

 

[tlisotta]

Question for those in the know on oil pressure concerning my post about my engine rod shooting through the oil pan. Thinking through this - I have the Ford Oil Catch cans that were recommended per the manual. On the Passenger side I had a screw (one of the 4) missing - it fell and was caught in the bottom of the car where the spoiler is. I did not have a chance to replace it when going to the track. The other 3 screws were tightened down. Is it possible there could have been a vacuum leak that would have caused oil pressure loss? I am assuming no especially since what happened to my car has been happening to others and my dealer has replaced several engines. Just curious if catch cans if not sealed can lead to issues. My race shop did not think that had anything to do with it but wanted to see what you guys say. Should hear Monday on the warranty issue.

 

[S550VIN54]

Question for those in the know on oil pressure concerning my post about my engine rod shooting through the oil pan. Thinking through this - I have the Ford Oil Catch cans that were recommended per the manual. On the Passenger side I had a screw (one of the 4) missing - it fell and was caught in the bottom of the car where the spoiler is. I did not have a chance to replace it when going to the track. The other 3 screws were tightened down. Is it possible there could have been a vacuum leak that would have caused oil pressure loss? I am assuming no especially since what happened to my car has been happening to others and my dealer has replaced several engines. Just curious if catch cans if not sealed can lead to issues. My race shop did not think that had anything to do with it but wanted to see what you guys say. Should hear Monday on the warranty issue.

That I seriously doubt as you would have more likely seen a check engine light. That would be interesting to see if someone loosens the screws a little to see if it would even through a code.

 

[S550VIN54]

Great post. Makes sense. It will be interesting to see how long the second engine lasts and if it blows if I push for a buyback, lemmon law, etc.

Nice write up! It will be interesting to see if this carries over on the GT500's since I read that they are using the same engine with a supercharger.

 

[17RubyShelbyGT350]

I think that many are frustrated with the choice in material for the OPGs, but they are overlooking the hardness and resulting durability of a powdered metal gear.

The broken OPGs are caused by torsional vibration of the crank snout. It causes the gears to move inside the housing. The vibration and side loading combine to crack the brittle powdered metal gears.

Forged Steel gears are softer, which allows them to flex. But they do not have the durability of the hardened gears. That said, Many of you will have the car LONG sold and gone before you wear out a forged gear in a cast housing.

Ford did, however, determine that the cost/benefit of the OPGs were acceptable when paired with a proper crank damper and heavy clutch. It is one of the reasons the 350 has a heavy dual mass flywheel. The weight absorbs much of the vibration the FPC is prone to through firing order and RPM. Let's also not forget that Ford went with a non-traditional FPC design that actually caused more NVH than traditional FPCs due to packaging and cost of needing to run a dual plenum intake with the traditional FPC design.

Interesting information. However, I continue to doubt the wisdom of fixating too much on the OPG because Ford's code of Omerta means that none of us know what is causing the problems. Or, if someone here or reading these posts DOES know, they, they feel constrained to publically acknowledge it. Personally, I think there are potentially different causes of failures between those cars whose oil consumption completely absurd, and those who experience nearly instantaneous engine failure due to 0 oil pressure. It will be interesting to see what the final results of Car & Driver's long term Shelby. Although, in truth, no production engine should reasonably be expected to hold up to having the snot kicked out of it for 40k miles. I am sure they are doing that with this car because of what it is and how much fun it is to drive. I doubt they are driving the Volvo SUV they tested that way.

Whatever the causes(s) are, I suspect they are ultimately the consequence of some penny pinching production compromises made to the originally designed and thoroughly developed engines.

Ford is just another in a long line of manufacturers who engage in this practice. Personally, I would not mind paying a couple of hundred bucks more for a plus $60k car to free the manufacturers up from engaging in this penny pinching practice. Perhaps this could be enforced by management requiring the original development Team to sign off on any proposed changes to what they painstakingly developed and durability tested, prior to moving to the production phase.

Again, This is not just a Ford issue. Moving to another car brand will not just obviate this problem. This is a corporate "group think" problem and it is not just with cars....

Stupid is as stupid does.


F. Gump

 

[Minn19]

I love the driving experience with this car.

But Ford is Ford.. and this will surely be the last time I give them my business.

I’m really torn on this same train of thought. Ford is such a strange company IMO. They had the guts to stick their necks on the line to build this unique car with the Voodoo obviously being the biggest reason for this uniqueness. Then they throw in the Track Attack program, which is/was awesome. They are doing things almost all of the other car manufacturers are afraid to do nowadays.

But, then they don’t back it up with other customer service aspects of it. Their dealership network is old and as we know is extremely hit or miss when it comes to just basic service of this car. Then when you do have a major problem as a lot of us have had it is pulling teeth to get Ford corporate to do the right thing in a reasonable time frame sometimes. Or find a dealer service department competent enough to do the work. I’m extremely lucky that I have a great relationship with my dealer both on the sales side and the service side. It and the uniqueness of the GT350 is honestly the only reason I stuck with Ford and bought an F150 from them as well. But, I totally get your feelings on this and lean that way sometimes as well.

Add to it the politics of the day and especially trade disputes etc..........I like buying US products when I can (which is also a big reason I have Forgeline wheels etc), but our domestic auto makers don’t make it easy sometimes on both the product and customer service side.

 

[olaosunt]

This thread is the reason my whipple kit has been sitting in boxes at my installer since February.

In over 2 years I have 13,000 street miles including 3-4 passes at the strip running mid to low 12's . I am never going to see a "track" and while I love the car on the street I thought it needed just a little more .
I ordered billet OPG and CS to install at the same time as the supercharger but at this rate I am thinking I better have a "spare" short block (like I have for my Hellion and KB GT's) before I go rolling the dice .
I think I may wait till the next MMR 10% off sale to get a "built" Voodoo short block ...for about $6500 with OPG/ARP main studs/ 2000 rod bolts / head studs with slight decrease in compression .
I could then swap the short block (or long block since I also have an extra pair of GT 350 heads )and keep the original in case I ever want to go back to stock and sell the car .....or just to have as a "spare" that can be built to be stronger(? Sleeved ) if needed .

 

[Zitrosounds]

Nice write up! It will be interesting to see if this carries over on the GT500's since I read that they are using the same engine with a supercharger.

Not the same engine at all. In fac, all we really know for sure is that it is a CPC version of 5.2 block with a SC. They head design may be different, internals, firing order etc.
Not the same engine.