PP2...........starting to appear at dealerships

[jake_zx2]

No sensible contribution? Deflection? Come on man. Don't be ridiculous. Your fantasy land argument is based on paper. Mine is based in reality. You get no PMs when you speak so ignorantly publicly.
Still more deflection and personal attacks... who would've guessed. You seem to be getting really emotional about this
Facts are the motor in the GT has a lower output than the motor in the GT350, the weight differences are negligible, the gearing is somewhat negligible. There's no disputing that.
So, if it's so negligible, then how come the GT ran near dead even with the GT350 at a rolling start on the back straight of VIR? Reality is that there isn't nearly as much of an acceleration difference as you think there is
So what does Ford do to make the GT appear fast on paper? Put some wide track compound on that thing and give it some of the suspension goodies from the Shelby.
Wider stickier tires don't just make it faster on paper, it makes it faster in real life. Look at 1LE vs PP1... PP2 has about all the same upgrades as the 1LE has. Tell me, do you think the PP2 will run anywhere near the times that the 1LE runs, or did Ford just spend thousands developing a failure of a car?
And, for you, that now means - again on paper - that oh the PP2 is as fast or faster than a stock GT350. It's foolish of you to be sold so easily.
On paper is literally ALL that we have right now, and again, you're saying that ON PAPER the GT350 is significantly faster, so you can stop calling the kettle black now.
The GT350 doesn't have cup2s because the R does. Anyone going to a track to seriously flex their vehicle - whatever vehicle that is - is going to use tires suited to the event. That's common sense. Your refusal to embrace it doesn't make your argument stronger - it just makes your bias more apparent.
Correct, and remind me, what else does the R have over the standard 350 that makes it so significantly faster? Some wheels and mild aero work. Again, Tires are most of the gap there. and okay, sure, some people may swap tires to go to the track. But that's not we're discussing. We're discussing whether the showroom version of the PP2 will be faster than the showroom version of the GT350. Having to bring up modifying a vehicle to give it the advantage... That is the true show of bias. talk about being in a fantasy land
I'm simply asking you to use common sense and stop drinking the marketing kool-aid if you're actually trying to make an intelligent argument about which car is truly faster. And I'm simply asking that you really look at the facts and embrace that, yes, with the PP2 having no speed disadvantage, less shifting, the same suspension minus hubs and rear LCAs, same suspension tuning, but STICKIER tires, it COULD be faster.

Tires can make a noticeable difference. Look at Camaro SS vs 1LE, C7 GS vs Stingray, etc. Yes, there is more than just tire at play (other suspension mods) but the same is true of PP2. Ford's own internal testing shows a substantial improvement on a tight technical track.

^^This guy gets it

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[MrCincinnati]

But that's not we're discussing. We're discussing whether the showroom version of the PP2 will be faster than the showroom version of the GT350. Having to bring up modifying a vehicle to give it the advantage...

This is where the disconnect is, apparently. Despite saying this multiple different ways - you remain interested in debating paper. I'm not. It's not realistic. We're not discussing whether the showroom version of the PP2 will be faster than the showroom version of the GT350, you are.

I've stated multiple times that's a foolish comparison. Why? The showroom version of the GT350 has street tires. But - let's go along with your fantasy for a moment just so we can end this silly conversation in agreement:

Even in street tires you can't definitively state which car would be faster, right? That was my original point and it still stands.

My additional point is - put both cars in the right rubber and there's no contest. Definitively stated.

Do with that what you will - which is apparently not much since you own neither.

On paper is literally ALL that we have right now, and again, you're saying that ON PAPER the GT350 is significantly faster, so you can stop calling the kettle black now.

I don't think the GT350 is significantly faster on paper. I know if you put the same rubber on both cars the GT350 is significantly faster. There's no bench racing necessary for that statement.

 

[UAmach1]

This is where the disconnect is, apparently. Despite saying this multiple different ways - you remain interested in debating paper. I'm not. It's not realistic. We're not discussing whether the showroom version of the PP2 will be faster than the showroom version of the GT350, you are.

I've stated multiple times that's a foolish comparison. Why? The showroom version of the GT350 has street tires. But - let's go along with your fantasy for a moment just so we can end this silly conversation in agreement:

Even in street tires you can't definitively state which car would be faster, right? That was my original point and it still stands.

My additional point is - put both cars in the right rubber and there's no contest. Definitively stated.

Do with that what you will - which is apparently not much since you own neither.

You're the ONLY person I've seen here NOT comparing showroom stock vs showroom stock. Of course once you get modding/track prepping everything goes out the window.

 

[MrCincinnati]

You're the ONLY person I've seen here NOT comparing showroom stock vs showroom stock. Of course once you get modding/track prepping everything goes out the window.

Perhaps you thought I was including you in my comments. I was not.

I was specifically referencing my back and forth with the person I quoted.

 

[UAmach1]

Perhaps you thought I was including you in my comments. I was not.

I was specifically referencing my back and forth with the person I quoted.

I'm aware, and my point still stands. Show room vs Showroom is the most dollar for dollar apples to apples comparison that you will get.

It's like after a PP2 vs 1LE review the Camaro guys saying it's not fair because the PP2 has Cup 2's. The reality is, one has a better tire. Motor Trend is not going to change the tires before testing, and those are the numbers people will look at before buying.

 

[MrCincinnati]

I'm aware, and my point still stands. Show room vs Showroom is the most dollar for dollar apples to apples comparison that you will get.

It's like after a PP2 vs 1LE review the Camaro guys saying it's not fair because the PP2 has Cup 2's. The reality is, one has a better tire.

Not that you or the other guy is going to be buying a PP2 or a GT350 or a Camaro anytime soon so it doesn't matter but let's just have one moment of pristine unadulterated honesty, ok?

You don't actually think someone is going to make a purchase decision for a PP2 because it comes with cup2s and the GT350 doesn't, right? Am I wrong in that thought? I would think the purchase decision is - the GT350 is more expensive to begin with and you can get close enough with a PP2 with cup2s...

Not that the average person (including me) can utilize these vehicles in such a way to make them more necessary performance wise than a good track miata, but I digress...

If you guys are really hanging your hat (for a car you're not even in the market for) on the fact that it has more capable tires than the other car - then :shrug: that's kinda silly.. IMHO

 

[UAmach1]

Not that you or the other guy is going to be buying a PP2 or a GT350 or a Camaro anytime soon so it doesn't matter but let's just have one moment of pristine unadulterated honesty, ok?

You don't actually think someone is going to make a purchase decision for a PP2 because it comes with cup2s and the GT350 doesn't, right? Am I wrong in that thought? I would think the purchase decision is - the GT350 is more expensive to begin with and you can get close enough with a PP2 with cup2s...

Not that the average person (including me) can utilize these vehicles in such a way to make them more necessary performance wise than a good track miata, but I digress...

If you guys are really hanging your hat (for a car you're not even in the market for) on the fact that it has more capable tires than the other car - then :shrug: that's kinda silly.. IMHO

No ones hanging anything on the tires. The only point made is that the tires help close the gap of the stock PP2 and stock base GT350.

No other point is being made.

 

[MrCincinnati]

No ones hanging anything on the tires. The only point made is that the tires help close the gap of the stock PP2 and stock base GT350.

No other point is being made.

No sir, that was not the point being made. The point that I jumped in this conversation on was that the PP2 would certainly outperform a GT350.

 

[UAmach1]

No sir, that was not the point being made. The point that I jumped in this conversation on was that the PP2 would certainly outperform a GT350.

Please quote that statement.

 

[MrCincinnati]

Please quote that statement.

Stop being lazy man - it's in this thread.

**edit** that was a bit harsh. It's 3 pages back.

 

[jake_zx2]

As has been said, comparing stock vs stock is the only apples to apples way to compare. If you're going to say that people will put MPSC2s on the GT350, why not say that people will put Hoosier slicks on a PP2?

You say that there's no bench racing necessary, but what precisely are you doing in saying you KNOW the GT350 is faster? We're all bench racing here, don't try to act high and mighty

The premonition that none of us will own either anytime soon is inaccurate, and frankly, somewhat pretentious. My current car is pending sale, and assuming that there are no issues, I will be updating my order to include PP2.

Someone certainly WOULD buy the car because it comes stock with cup 2s, meaning they won't have to do a single thing to be faster than a car that costs $10k more. In fact, that's the reason I'm considering it.

Like Mach said, the only point being made here is that if you were to rent both cars on the same day and take them to the track without doing a single thing, then the PP2 could possibly (likely) be faster. No one is saying that it'll be faster than a modded GT350 or faster than an R. That's all you.

 

[UAmach1]

Stop being lazy man - it's in this thread.

**edit** that was a bit harsh. It's 3 pages back.

I wasn't saying it to be a dick, I simply couldn't find it.

I did eventually find it, and yes saying the PP2 is faster than the GT350 is incorrect depending on track, in some cases the extra TQ of the 5.0 may outshine the better top end of the 350.

Also the only suspension changes seem to be tires, wheels, sway bars, and springs. If there is more it's not been mentioned anyplace.

 

[jake_zx2]

I wasn't saying it to be a dick, I simply couldn't find it.

I did eventually find it, and yes saying the PP2 is faster than the GT350 is incorrect depending on track, in some cases the extra TQ of the 5.0 may outshine the better top end of the 350.

Also the only suspension changes seem to be tires, wheels, sway bars, and springs. If there is more it's not been mentioned anyplace.

Retuned magride, abs, and steering as well. At that point, the only difference between GT350 and PP2 suspension is hubs and rear LCAs

 

[MrCincinnati]

I wasn't saying it to be a dick, I simply couldn't find it.

I did eventually find it, and yes saying the PP2 is faster than the GT350 is incorrect depending on track, in some cases the extra TQ of the 5.0 may outshine the better top end of the 350.

Also the only suspension changes seem to be tires, wheels, sway bars, and springs. If there is more it's not been mentioned anyplace.

I think the PP2 is a cool idea. I think Ford is being a bit deceptive throwing cup2s on the thing...

I'm not really that interested in PP2 vs GT350. I want to see a PP1 with cup2s vs a PP2.

 

[MrCincinnati]

Who's to say a regular GT350 on SC2's won't keep up with an R?

I'm completely convinced it would keep up with an R. That's pretty much my point here. There's no reason to think a GT350 with cup2s wouldn't keep up with (or even pass on a straight) a GT350R...

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