PP vs Non-PP

[LeonBorden]

Personally, at this point, I'm thinking about a 3.15 geared auto. High torque engines don't need multiplication through the driveline. Low torque, peaky engines do. For a DD/road trip/street car, big torque w/ low gears just means tire spin. No thanks. The 3.55s might be ok if an owner plans to keep their car stock...but this forum isn't for those people, right?

By this logic, a tuner is a waste of money too because it's just going to cause tire spin, right? The only downsides to having more gear from a performance perspective is having to shift a manual more. Obviously you don't want so much as to cripple your top speed. And of course, you lose fuel mileage. The tire spin is occurring because your car is accelerating more quickly. That's the goal right?

Both issues you have named with the PP are based on the assumption of having junk tires on the car. This argument can be made with ANY vehicle modification. This is why the PP cars come with better tires, albeit still no substitute for an RS3, Rival, etc.

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[Shanghai Dan]

So you brake experts are saying there is nothing better about larger surface area/more pistons?

No.

What we ARE saying is that, past a certain point (where you can lock up your tires so the ABS kicks in) during normal driving - there is nothing gained. IF you want more traction for stopping, then you need more rubber. Or, if you're racing and will have multiple hard stops in a very short time, then bigger brakes (predominantly rotors first) can help with brake fade.

But for a daily driver, on the street, having the PP brakes aren't going to assist the once-in-a-blue-moon panic stop over the non-PP brakes.

Just like you don't need a massive wing and downforce additions on the street. On the strip or track? They may be needed - but on the street, unless you're doing something highly illegal (license suspension worthy, ride in the back of a police car worthy) they add nothing but cosmetics.

 

[LeonBorden]

So why don't you go troll every performance thread about tuners and big turbos with the same logic. The stock motor can blow the tires off, so why modify it further, right? It's a given that tires are everything. They limit how fast you can accelerate, how fast you can take a corner, and how fast you can stop. We know this. By continually referencing this fact you're assuming that people on a performance-oriented forum will not upgrade to a better tire. If you leave your car bone stock, the PP is worth it. If you plan to modify it, it's still worth it. If you're drag racing only, probably not.

 

[Shanghai Dan]

So why don't you go troll every performance thread about tuners and big turbos with the same logic. The stock motor can blow the tires off, so why modify it further, right? It's a given that tires are everything. They limit how fast you can accelerate, how fast you can take a corner, and how fast you can stop. We know this. By continually referencing this fact you're assuming that people on a performance-oriented forum will not upgrade to a better tire. If you leave your car bone stock, the PP is worth it. If you plan to modify it, it's still worth it. If you're drag racing only, probably not.

Troll? Just because someone disagrees with your assertion and provides solid, physics-based answers for their position doesn't mean they're a troll.

For most people, a bigger turbo would be a waste. Especially for one straight from the factory. We're already at the limits of what the tires can put to the ground and the suspension can handle. Unless you're building an out-and-out race car (which the Mustang is not), why do it?

Remember, we're talking stock options from the factory. Is it your assertion that the stock brakes are not suitable for 99%+ of all Mustang buyers, that braking performance in one hard panic stop is compromised relative to the PP package brakes?

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

The tire spin is occurring because your car is accelerating more quickly. That's the goal right?

Please tell me you see the issue w/ what you just stated. Tire spin means exactly the opposite...the car is NOT accelerating faster. That is definitely NOT the goal.

Both issues you have named with the PP are based on the assumption of having junk tires on the car. This argument can be made with ANY vehicle modification. This is why the PP cars come with better tires, albeit still no substitute for an RS3, Rival, etc.

Ok?

 

[LeonBorden]

Excuse me, the wheels are accelerating at a quicker rate, not the vehicle. That translates to the vehicle accelerating more quickly with PROPER TRACTION. You're debating tire selection, not brake package. The Pirellis, again, are extremely mediocre tires, but are super stars compared to base model all seasons.

And of course the brakes are fine for 99% of all drivers, however, 99% of all drivers are also not the type to register for a performance forum, therefore the audience we're addressing is obviously that crowd that DOES modify their car or DOES enjoy spirited driving.

 

[Herr_Poopschitz]

Excuse me, the wheels are accelerating at a quicker rate, not the vehicle. That translates to the vehicle accelerating more quickly with PROPER TRACTION. You're debating tire selection, not brake package. The Pirellis, again, are extremely mediocre tires, but are super stars compared to base model all seasons.

And of course the brakes are fine for 99% of all drivers, however, 99% of all drivers are also not the type to register for a performance forum, therefore the audience we're addressing is obviously that crowd that DOES modify their car or DOES enjoy spirited driving.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing about at this point. Yes, tires matter. Anything else?

 

[Marino]

Troll? Just because someone disagrees with your assertion and provides solid, physics-based answers for their position doesn't mean they're a troll.

For most people, a bigger turbo would be a waste. Especially for one straight from the factory. We're already at the limits of what the tires can put to the ground and the suspension can handle. Unless you're building an out-and-out race car (which the Mustang is not), why do it?

Remember, we're talking stock options from the factory. Is it your assertion that the stock brakes are not suitable for 99%+ of all Mustang buyers, that braking performance in one hard panic stop is compromised relative to the PP package brakes?

:doh: so much derp

Excuse me, the wheels are accelerating at a quicker rate, not the vehicle. That translates to the vehicle accelerating more quickly with PROPER TRACTION. You're debating tire selection, not brake package. The Pirellis, again, are extremely mediocre tires, but are super stars compared to base model all seasons.

And of course the brakes are fine for 99% of all drivers, however, 99% of all drivers are also not the type to register for a performance forum, therefore the audience we're addressing is obviously that crowd that DOES modify their car or DOES enjoy spirited driving.

^This

Can we all agree that the 352x32mm 4 piston brakes are better than 320x30mm 2 piston brakes in braking performance? opcorn:

 

[wildsailor]

* Snip




Can we all agree that the 352x32mm 4 piston brakes are better than 320x30mm 2 piston brakes in braking performance?

Of course we can agree on that. I think what people are trying to say though is that the base brakes are pretty darn good for what they use their car for so the 'better' part isn't something they value. That is why these are an option; if you want them they are there for you. Keep in mind the base brakes that are considered so inadequate still need ABS to keep from locking the wheels up so better brakes are not really better with occasional hard stops. What you will find is the larger rotors/dual piston brakes are better at repeated hard stops where the base brakes will fade sooner. But for non-track daily driver stuff they are still very good brakes. I am not sure the dual piston brakes on the EBPP are even adequate for real track use. The four piston GTPP brakes are even better yet for repeating heavy stops. If you are going to race your EB Mustang you will need a brake upgrade regardless of PP or not.

 

[Amaury]

No matter how big of brakes you put in the car, you will always stop as fast as the tires let you.....

 

[wildsailor]

No matter how big of brakes you put in the car, you will always stop as fast as the tires let you.....

Unless you overheat them. That is what the larger, better vented brakes with bigger pistons and stainless lines buys you, less overheating and fade under heavy use conditions.

When racing you brake very hard at each turn; you need brakes that will not fade. On the street; not so much.

 

[Amaury]

Unless you overheat them. That is what the larger, better vented brakes with bigger pistons and stainless lines buys you, less overheating and fade under heavy use conditions.

In some ways, yes. Pads and how fast you disipate heat is what's important. Not the size, or bigger pistons, stainless lines.... I have seen cars brake better with better pads and stock discs than with big brakes and shit pads in them. Car weight helps a lot too, center of gravity, weight distribution, and lots of more things... ;) Lines are more for pedal feel than braking power...

 

[Shanghai Dan]

Unless you overheat them. That is what the larger, better vented brakes with bigger pistons and stainless lines buys you, less overheating and fade under heavy use conditions.

When racing you brake very hard at each turn; you need brakes that will not fade. On the street; not so much.

Yep!

And if you're not racing - there is no difference. I think magazine tests of PP and non-PP Mustangs show that to be the case (differences in braking distance being well within the error tolerance).

Improved brakes are great if you're racing; otherwise they're not going to buy you anything on the street (meaning - not racing). Rear gearing can have a definite advantage around town or highway, suspension stiffness will affect ride on a day-to-day basis - but different brakes won't give you anything unless you're consistently hard into them.

 

[04SloSnake]

Not a lot of canyon carvers in here apparently.

 

[Amaury]

I dont have canyons where I live, but I got thousands of laps (10+years) in my local tracks ;) Protege/ RX7 Turbo ;)

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