Passing emissions with my Procharger

[oesman]

Owners manual says not to use fuel additives, mentioning emission control systems and warranty (will not be covered).

Procharger Stage II is advertising a lot more power than a comparable (91 octane) Vortech, so I am thinking that is a 93 octane kit.

Procharger says 91 octane. Realistically on summer blend 93 I was getting the 18 degrees of timing their tune shoots for. Winter blend I was getting KR and running just 14 degrees. Throw in some race gas into the blend and hold 22 degrees all day.

As far as additives killing emmissions it would depend on the additive like the metallics i listed. Other additives that oxygenate fuel (i.e. alcohol) and stuff like toluene and isooctane are already in normal gasoline. Im sure ford doesnt want to write a 5 page article on the science of fuel in their manual though.

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[mustang1]

Procharger says 91 octane. Realistically on summer blend 93 I was getting the 18 degrees of timing their tune shoots for. Winter blend I was getting KR and running just 14 degrees. Throw in some race gas into the blend and hold 22 degrees all day.

where do you see that?

Vortech advertises 91 octane on their website:
"630HP - The complete system will boost your stock 5.0 GT to 630HP and 483 LB/FT Torque with 7.5 to 8.5 PSI from the V-3 Si Supercharger at factory redline using CA 91 Octane fuel.

https://vortechsuperchargers.com/collections/complete-systems/products/2015-ford-mustang-5-0l-gt

As far as additives killing emmissions it would depend on the additive like the metallics i listed. Other additives that oxygenate fuel (i.e. alcohol) and stuff like toluene and isooctane are already in normal gasoline. Im sure ford doesnt want to write a 5 page article on the science of fuel in their manual though.

Owners manuals mentions manganese and lead, where the latter is illegal. And the former turns the plugs orange. And probably the cats and o2 sensors.

 

[oesman]

where do you see that?

On the procharger website.

2015 Mustang ProCharger Stage 2 system, which allows you to bolt on an additional 230+ HP to otherwise stock motors running 91 octane pump gas.

Though in practice I wouldn't run 91.

https://www.procharger.com/blog/stage-2-procharger-systems-2015-mustangs-released

Owners manuals mentions manganese and lead, where the latter is illegal. And the former turns the plugs orange. And probably the cats and o2 sensors.

Yea these are all the ones I'm talking about.

Lead = Tetraethyllead (TEL)
Manganese = Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT)
Ferrocene = Dicyclopentadienyl Iron

Those are all organometallic additives for fuel. TEL we obviously learned is bad for environment, catalytic converters, oxygen sensors, etc... TEL works really well though, there were TEL enhanced fuels as high as 150 octane in the past.

MMT carries some risks of damaging sensors and cats, but it's a question of amounts. MMT itself is kind of an orangish color and you'll see those deposits if enough is used. The EPA did get studies showing small amounts of MMT won't harm anything, but improve octane. The EPA still said "fuck you" for basically reasons of "eh we're still not convinced", but they were taken to court and they had to allow MMT in non-RFG gas. RFG gas is used in CA, CT, DE, DC, IL, IN, NJ, NY, PA, VA, WI depending on the county. So my guess is Ford is afraid you're going to add a LOT of MMT. This is why I'm not a huge fan of random octane boosters and how people approach em, fuel is ultimately science, and things don't work as simple as "I'm just gonna pour in 2x as much cuz I'll get 2x the benefit, right guys!?!"

From the EPA on MMT:

MMT is allowed in U.S. gasoline at a level equivalent to 1/32 grams per gallon manganese (gpg Mn).

Agency determined that MMT, added at 1/32 gpg Mn, will not cause or contribute to regulated emissions failures of vehicles. Some have expressed concerns that the use of MMT may harm on-board diagnostic equipment (OBD) which monitors the performance of emissions control devices in the vehicle. As of this time, the Agency believes the data collected is inconclusive with regard to OBD.

Ferrocene is a bit of a different story it's newer as an octane booster. Has more of a history in reducing smoke as an iron additive. Large amounts as with all organometallics will eventually cause contamination. Ferrocene will leave red/brown/orange iron oxide (rust) deposits on your plugs and sensors if it's heavily concentrated. This is why they had scavenger additives when TEL was used mainstream to help clean up deposits. However a 90's study showed that 15ppm concentration of ferrocene actually improved everything including polution. I think we'll find out more about ferrocene if it becomes more popular in mainstream fuel use. This may be unlikely since the enviro-Nazis in the US and Europe have a default position of "NO FUCKING WAY" to anything you ask them, even if you have studies to back up your claims (hence the MMT lawsuit). Though a few countries including Russia are using it, so we may get more info there down the road.

If you get rid of the metallics you basically have just alcohols, ethers and hydrocarbons to play with. Those are already in fuel. Personally I'm not sold on running tons of ethanol as it has a higher fuel sensitivity (difference between RON and MON octane ratings) which means the fuel performance is more unstable under load than high octane fuels that have lower alcohol concentrations i.e. 0%-15%. The sensitivity difference can be almost double. Toluene is a lot better in that sense, has a much lower fuel sensitivity, but the problem is it's so slow burning. Good luck in the winter, F1 cars had to heat their tanks to make their toluene loaded fuel work.

So ultimately if this is a fuel related issue it's gotta be lead related unless Bartly just dumped massive amounts of octane boosters with MMT / Ferocene into his tank. Those things are fairly safe at reasonable amounts.

EDIT: Long post had to fix some typos.

 

[mustang1]

On the procharger website.

2015 Mustang ProCharger Stage 2 system, which allows you to bolt on an additional 230+ HP to otherwise stock motors running 91 octane pump gas.

Though in practice I wouldn't run 91.

https://www.procharger.com/blog/stage-2-procharger-systems-2015-mustangs-released

That Procharger posting is a blog entry when the kit was first released. Advertising 230 hp. That's slightly more aggressive than the 195 hp Vortech on 91 octane. However, their main product page now advertises 10 psi and 300+ hp. So the kit has had significant modifications since then. And they no longer specify octane. I really doubt they could get another 100+ hp out of the kit on the same 91 octane fuel. If they could, then Vortech would do the same.

https://www.procharger.com/automotive-superchargers/ford/mustang-gt/2015-16-mustang-gt-50-4v

"2017-15 MUSTANG GT (5.0 4V)
BOLT-ON UP TO 300+ HP WITH PROCHARGER INTERCOOLED SYSTEMS AND TUNER KITS!
"ProCharger Systems are supplied with proven tuning calibrations and a handheld programmer set for a 65-70%+ HP (Stage II Intercooled System, 10 psi) or 55-60%+ HP (HO Intercooled System, 8 psi) power gain over stock, running pump gas

MMT carries some risks of damaging sensors and cats, but it's a question of amounts. MMT itself is kind of an orangish color and you'll see those deposits if enough is used. The EPA did get studies showing small amounts of MMT won't harm anything, but improve octane.

... So ultimately if this is a fuel related issue it's gotta be lead related unless Bartly just dumped massive amounts of octane boosters with MMT / Ferocene into his tank. Those things are fairly safe at reasonable amounts.

octane boosters may be "safe" at "reasonable" amounts, but considering the Mustang Owner's Guide, I have a feeling that if you take your car into the dealership for a failed emissions test, and they pull a spark plug or o2 sensor, and it is orange, that will generate some push back. I doubt they will try to decide on the shade or intensity of orange, and whether the car got a "reasonable" amount of octane booster.

 

[oesman]

That Procharger posting is a blog entry when the kit was first released. Advertising 230 hp. That's slightly more aggressive than the 195 hp Vortech on 91 octane. However, their main product page now advertises 10 psi and 300+ hp. So the kit has had significant modifications since then.

You realize the kit will make more power with higher octane and less with lower octane, right? Your computer will advance or retard timing. For example on 93 my computer hits 18 degrees of timing which is what procharger has set as the base in their tune. If you run 91 you'd wind up seeing 14 degrees with their canned tune and make noticeably less power. When I run race fuel in my mix the computer goes to 22 degrees which yields even more power. Ignition timing makes a much bigger difference with forced induction. You can easily swing 100bhp+ through timing changes and fuel quality with no other changes to boost levels or the overall kit.

octane boosters may be "safe" at "reasonable" amounts, but considering the Mustang Owner's Guide, I have a feeling that if you take your car into the dealership for a failed emissions test, and they pull a spark plug or o2 sensor, and it is orange, that will generate some push back.

We're trying to talk about and help Bartly with a specific problem he's having. This is not a theoretical "I took my unmodified mustang to the dealer because the emissions failed and I've been adding octane booster." Why would he take it to the dealer to begin with? Unless its a very friendly dealer, who the hell expects any power train or emissions warranty work after nearly doubling the horsepower of the car? Obviously very little of what we're doing complies with Ford's owner's guide.

If our theory is that he shot his cats then either he's been driving on leaded fuel, which Ford is right will kill cats quickly, usually quicker than oxygen sensors. Or he's been pouring in massive amounts of octane booster with MMT or Ferrocene. Like multiple cans a tank. He's only had the setup for like a year and neither MMT or Ferrocene will kill anything that quickly since they're used in commercial fuels.

If we do want to play the theoretical game: If you take a car that has nothing done to it that would flag Ford's attention to deny your claim (i.e. pretty much stock) to the dealer for failed emissions then orange can be simply rust. As I mentioned earlier Ferrocene additive simply deposits rust (iron oxide) after combustion. I don't know how they'd prove where rust came from. Furthermore the dealer is paid by Ford, it's generally in their interest to not have denied claims. They get paid to do warranty work. They just have to follow Ford's rules to get claims approved. For example Audi requires cars to undergo their diagnostic system before any power train claims are approved. Audi is very good at detecting tunes and denying all claims afterward and flagging the car as warranty void. How do you do that with rust on cats or plugs?

I doubt they will try to decide on the shade or intensity of orange, and whether the car got a "reasonable" amount of octane booster.

The dealer isn't going to be deciding anything on the shade or intensity of anything. That's for Ford to decide depending on how the dealer describes the issue. If it's just rusty catalytic converters, do you really think Ford is gonna deny it and say "I bet this guy ran some ferrocene octane boosters in huge amounts for a year!"

 

[mustang1]

You realize the kit will make more power with higher octane and less with lower octane, right? Your computer will advance or retard timing. For example on 93 my computer hits 18 degrees of timing which is what procharger has set as the base in their tune. If you run 91 you'd wind up seeing 14 degrees with their canned tune and make noticeably less power. When I run race fuel in my mix the computer goes to 22 degrees which yields even more power. Ignition timing makes a much bigger difference with forced induction. You can easily swing 100bhp+ through timing changes and fuel quality with no other changes to boost levels or the overall kit.

I suppose, but he was complaining about knock. Not sure if that was audible, or just something that showed on a datalog. If an FI system is optimized for 93, it doesn't seem like a good idea to just let the knock sensors figure out what fuel you just bought.

We're trying to talk about and help Bartly with a specific problem he's having. This is not a theoretical "I took my unmodified mustang to the dealer because the emissions failed and I've been adding octane booster." Why would he take it to the dealer to begin with? Unless its a very friendly dealer, who the hell expects any power train or emissions warranty work after nearly doubling the horsepower of the car? Obviously very little of what we're doing complies with Ford's owner's guide.

I don't imagine Ford would warranty a Procharger car. I was just pointing out that the Mustang Owner's Manual says "Do not use ..." Implying, if you do, you are on your own. And where the OP needs to pass state emissions test, he needs working cats and o2 sensors.

 

[oesman]

I suppose, but he was complaining about knock. Not sure if that was audible, or just something that showed on a datalog. If an FI system is optimized for 93, it doesn't seem like a good idea to just let the knock sensors figure out what fuel you just bought.

Yep he was complaining about knock. It was all in his data logs, not audible knock AFAIK. You shouldn't have audible knock with our engine management unless something has gone very wrong. I had similar issues logging knock on junk 93 octane last winter, same issue this winter, compensating with unleaded race gas as needed.

The PC tune is pretty conservative, even if it's having to drop from 18 to 14 degrees of timing. I'd like to see some of the Vortech logs on 91. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vortech rides knock sensors on 91 too. Between the high resolution/frequency of these new computers and the built in wideband calibration these are pretty safe engine management systems from the factory. I wouldn't personally wanna use 91, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to blow the engine up at 14 degrees of timing either. I would always get a custom tune if I couldn't work out proper quality fueling.

I don't imagine Ford would warranty a Procharger car. I was just pointing out that the Mustang Owner's Manual says "Do not use ..." Implying, if you do, you are on your own. And where the OP needs to pass state emissions test, he needs working cats and o2 sensors.

That's fair, I guess initially I thought you were thinking the additives killed his cats. My point was mainly that if his cats are dead it's gotta be lead (TEL) unless he's just been super dumb with the safer additives since his build is pretty new. Main reason being since those safer additives are used in fuels already and aren't killing emissions. Of course who knows what concentrations are in mystery fuel additive bottles, I don't like the idea of using them one bit, but unless he's just dumped multiple cans a tank in there I can't see it damaging his cats and sensors so quickly. Also the pre-cat O2s must be working or he'd have other problems, and you'd figure those would be the most contaminated.

I'm going to be pulling my cats, O2s and plugs next week. I don't want to keep hijacking Bartly's thread so I may post my own if there is anything interesting to see. I'm curious if there are any visible deposits yet from the race gas. I don't use additives, but Sunoco does in their unleaded race gas and that's what I blend with pump gas. I trust Sunoco to make a product with reasonable PPM concentrations of these additives vs. a mystery bottle that claims to turn your regular 93 into race gas. If there are deposits I'll post em so we can all take a look. Right now all these parts work perfectly, so this may also give us insight into how much the contamination hurts if there is any.

 

[mustang1]

Yep he was complaining about knock. It was all in his data logs, not audible knock AFAIK. You shouldn't have audible knock with our engine management unless something has gone very wrong. I had similar issues logging knock on junk 93 octane last winter, same issue this winter, compensating with unleaded race gas as needed.

The PC tune is pretty conservative, even if it's having to drop from 18 to 14 degrees of timing. I'd like to see some of the Vortech logs on 91. I wouldn't be surprised if the Vortech rides knock sensors on 91 too. Between the high resolution/frequency of these new computers and the built in wideband calibration these are pretty safe engine management systems from the factory. I wouldn't personally wanna use 91, but I wouldn't necessarily expect it to blow the engine up at 14 degrees of timing either. I would always get a custom tune if I couldn't work out proper quality fueling.

Its odd that Procharger advertises 300+ hp, and Vortech advertises 195 hp. One of them has a marketing / advertising problem.

So are you saying if a car is optimized for 93 octane, it can still run 87 octane, on a 100F day, WOT generating 10 psi, IAT2 = 200F, and no problems? Car will pull timing, drop some power, and its all good ?

I didn't think the OP was complaining about dropping 100 hp, so much as knock, and passing inspection.

 

[oesman]

Its odd that Procharger advertises 300+ hp, and Vortech advertises 195 hp. One of them has a marketing / advertising problem.

So are you saying if a car is optimized for 93 octane, it can still run 87 octane, on a 100F day, WOT generating 10 psi, IAT2 = 200F, and no problems? Car will pull timing, drop some power, and its all good ?

I didn't think the OP was complaining about dropping 100 hp, so much as knock, and passing inspection.

Yea that's what I'm saying and these days they sure can. The 200F IAT is a bit hyperbolic though ;-).

edit: I'm not saying you should track the car or otherwise beat the piss out of it. What you describe is not optimal. Is it beneficial for engine life? No. Would I do it? No. Could you do it and not blow the engine up? Sure.

Here's something from Ford's website for the mustang fine print disclosures:

"Horsepower and torque ratings achieved with 93-octane fuel."

What fuel does your manual say to use? 87

The car is tuned for 93, that's how it gets it's best numbers from the factory. But they know they won't sell as many if they require 93.

Same with many of these big beast V8 trucks, etc... They make those figures on 93 not the 87 they list so fleets buy em.

edit: Also for the marketing part of it. My guess is that maybe they're different stage packages? Or that just like with the car marketing Procharger shows 93 octane figures? Can you link me to the exact vortech kit you're looking at?

edit: Never mind I see your link to the Vortech kit. This kit says 7.5 to 8.5 PSI, the ProCharger kit that Bartly and I have is 10PSI. It's the same Stage 2 kit that I linked you to on Procharger's blog where it said 230+ on 91 octane, except it said 9psi. So yes today their site says 300+ probably based on 93 octane and 10psi after the fact. Most likely they wanted the higher numbers for marketing just like Ford does. Mystery solved I think.

 

[mustang1]

Yea that's what I'm saying and these days they sure can. The 200F IAT is a bit hyperbolic though ;-).
...

You are comparing an NA engine to an FI engine at 10 psi

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/the-real-impact-of-using-wrong-fuel-octane-1785829176
The Real Impact of Using Wrong Fuel Octane


"Now some background on knock sensors.

All engine components create vibration, so the PCM must analyze the signal, looking for specific frequencies associated with engine knock. The PCM performs an FFT (Fast Fourier Transform), or some other proprietary algorithm, to translate the signal from time domain to frequency domain. The results of this FFT are then analyzed to determine if the engine is knocking. If it is determined the engine is knocking, timing is reduced to prevent knocking. This is computationally intensive, so it is difficult to do for transients, like tip-ins, tip-outs, engine shifts, etc.

What happens if you put a lower octane than your car requires?

"In short, MAYBE nothing. This one is kind of a big risk.


where big risk sounds a lot like future Aluminator customer.

 

[oesman]

We should probably stop hijacking this thread.

You are comparing an NA engine to an FI engine at 10 psi.

Sure please tell me every high horsepower FI rental car gets 93 in it when people bring it back. I'm probably the only idiot who does it when renting something like that on vacation. How about the Hellcat, 91 recommended, think they used 91 for the calibration for the 700hp claim?

A lot of the assumptions that guy makes are based on older tech. Computers are very fast today. Just look at how much resolution you get from data logging alone. I can get 60+ data sets per each second of time from a 2015+ mustang. That alone is crazy compared to older OBD2 cars where you might get a couple of sets per second. Guess what that data includes? KR data. I also bet I do not get data polling nearly as fast as the computer does it internally ;).

He even says:

I will say, it is unlikely to actually happen in cars produced in the last few years, but you are certainly exposing your engine to the possibility.

And by few years I'd say at least 10 years. I remember when computers got fast in a lot of cars, it was like mid 2000s.

Computers are the reason FI is safe today without ridiculous octanes. It's why we don't need 150 octane avgas anymore for supercharged plane engines. If you remember car manufacturers tried turbos before OBD2, and then many/most stopped, because it was a bad idea at the time. Now FI is in everything new.

 

[mustang1]

... Sure please tell me every high horsepower FI rental car gets 93 in it when people bring it back. I'm probably the only idiot who does it when renting something like that on vacation. How about the Hellcat, 91 recommended, think they used 91 for the calibration for the 700hp claim?

Good question. I attempted to rent at a Hellcat at an airport car rental one time, and they said they were out, and tried to get me into an "luxury" SUV. :faint:

 

[oesman]

Good question. I attempted to rent at a Hellcat at an airport car rental one time, and they said they were out, and tried to get me into an "luxury" SUV. :faint:

Man some airports really suck :(. I had to fly to NY recently and made the mistake of prepaying for a luxury sedan with Avis. Got there and was told I could have a Nissan Altima, I shit you not. Worst experience ever followed by Amex chargeback because they refused to cancel my reservation and refund me. They even had other cars, but apparently I wasn't cool enough for one of them, they were all reserved, just not for me.

I get a lot of luck at SLC airport sometimes, they have some fun cars occasionally and luxury SUV wise they usually give me an Escalade which isn't too bad IMO. IAH here in Houston has lots of nice cars for rent, not sure if they still have CTS-Vs, but they had a whole fleet of those at one point. I obviously don't get to rent here much since I live here lol.

 

[Bartly]

Hey Guys! Looks like you have been having quite the conversation while I was away, lol. Here goes my best attempt at answering questions, sorry I didn't direct quote, that would have made this reply even bigger I suppose.
Anyway.. Yeah, I don't expect to be bringing my car into the dealer with the supercharger/tune installed. Pretty much don't think I'll be getting help with smog test the car. My registration is due Feb 3 if I recall, I should be getting my renewal letter which will tell me if I need a smog or not. Here in NV we have 2 years exemption after purchase and I've registered the car twice, so guessing I'll be needing to figure all this out and I have about a month to do it. My commute is 14 miles city, about 30 minutes of driving, half of it is 45-50mph with about 7 stoplights. I have a freeway onramp 2 miles from my house, if I start the engine stone cold the coolant temp gets to right at 170 usually by the time I'm on the onramp. So I have been doing that for my 60mph constant speed cruises. I rechecked my trip recorder and I have about 1200 miles since installing the latest tune 2 weeks ago. That's probably 4 times what I usually do. I've done the freeway at 60mph thing 50 minutes out of town and back probably 8 times now trying to get the O2s to ready. I did a couple of datalogs with the O2s and am going to upload, but am having problems with my laptop, I'll get them uploaded soon though.
My tune history is as follows. Currently on Rob Shoemaker tune. Started with the PC kit and their tune. After nearly a dozen revisions they couldn't make the car run right so they sent me to a local dyno guy who is a Procharger installer. He tuned my car on his dyno for my 91 octane and it ran good as far as I could tell. I questioned the knock sensors (never seen those before and was probably worried about them more than I should have been.) Anyway the Dyno tuner guy took my car back and when I picked it up the knock sensors did nothing but report "0" at any condition, so assuming he turned them off. I asked him and he denied it and said he'd never turn them off. Anyway, I then contacted Rob Shoemaker and asked if he could turn my knock sensors back on and make sure the tune looked good to his eyes and sent him my dyno tune file (thinking it might be special for my 91 octane and elevation). So I think my current tune is based on that dyno tune (which was based on the PC tune from the getgo). Confusing enough?

Car has plenty of power, I highly doubt the cats have failed as I have no symptoms of that and the CAT monitor has readied. All that is left is the O2 and Heated O2 monitors.

My octane booster history: when I was going through that dyno tuning process I mentioned the knock sensors and they tuner said it was probably false knock. He suggested "Race Gas" concentrate (probably the same stuff as Torco and I can source it locally) states "safe for Cats and O2s" on the can. Anyway he said it would tell whether false or real knock. This was 5000 miles ago. I put 16oz to 8gal gas, drove it and the knock sensors were much better at WOT logs, knock went into the (-) for the first time ever on WOT. So we proved it was not false knock. That when he took the car back and turned the sensors off. Rob sent me his tune and the sensors came back on line (same as before, shit sometimes +5-6). Rob couldn't get it any better than this, I believe it is just the crappy 91 we get around here. I've tried all brands and stations and it's always crap. Never any audible detonation, just what the logs show. Anyway I've probably put 3 32oz cans of "Race Gas" concentrate through the car over the last 5000 miles. A couple of times 2oz/gal, then 1oz/gal a couple of times. I ran 3 full tanks of gas with .5oz/gallon and that seemed sufficient to tame the knock to where I could half think it wouldn't hurt anything long term. Then about a month ago I realized smog check was coming up and I've been using straight pump 91 for probably 5 tanks worth now. So I don't think I've used much MMT product, but have used some. Never anything else, no leaded, no stuff from a track, just quality brand pump 91. For the first time since installing the Procharger I could care less about the knock sensors (never thought I'd be saying that, lol).

In all three situations where I was speaking to either Procharger tuning, the dyno tuning guy and Rob Shoemaker I stated I was looking for a somewhat conservative tune that will only get 91 octane and it has to be friendly to my OEM cats and I need to pass emissions. So I don't think I have a "HP monster tune" my any means, when it was on the Dyno it measured 581HP and 455torque.

Hope that answered any questions that might give insight on what I could do next. Let me know if I missed any of your questions and thanks for trying to help.

 

[oesman]

Hey, yea we had a little fun lol.

That's crazy that local tuner turned off the knock sensors. That's kinda nutty, definitely can't just report 0 in all conditions. Glad you had the other tuner (Rob) fix it. Power wise at 581/455 that's conservative tune wise and makes sense for 91 octane. You picked up around 200 ponies that PC promised on 91 in their original blog post for Stage 2. So that seems fine.

As far as the concentrate stuff, I don't think it's the problem. You haven't used a whole lot of it. That concentrate stuff does work for people. I just don't like that it's a mystery product. It's probably some blend of of alcohol/isooctane/isopentante/toluene with mmt added.

If the cat O2s are ready then it's not likely to be fuel additive related IMO. Wonder if homeboy you had dyno tuning locally turned something else off. Can you find a friendly place that might um... overlook your situation with some creative solution to get you the sticker you need? It's not optimal but if you're running out of time it may be a solution while you work something up.

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