More hp or less weight?

[wproctor411]

If you think maintaining a 911 GT3 is cheaper than the Camaro Z28, I got some desert real estate I want you to buy.

For the price of the Z28 I'll take a base 911 any day, or a Vette, a mustang or Camaro don't mean shit to most people as they just see a $25k car, but a Porsche is a Porsche.

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[Grimace427]

The live-axle has a lot of unsprung weight. Running stiffer spring/damper will make the ride too harsh for everyday driving. Running wider offset wheels (don't bother me with semantics) will just make the ride that much harsher. Both the Boss and GT500 will probably get another 2 secs per lap with just wider and better favorable offset wheels but Ford knows that it's probably not a good compromise for street use.
For race car, my best guess is that they don't really care about competing with Lexus for ride quality.

Your post is not harsh. It's just weird.

Wheel offset has zero affect on ride quality. Where do you get that connection? I agree that moving to the IRS will improve ride quality while maintaining the performance priority, but I guarantee the Z/28 doesn't ride like a Cadillac either.

If you think maintaining a 911 GT3 is cheaper than the Camaro Z28, I got some desert real estate I want you to buy.

I work at a Mercedes/Porsche dealership, Porsches techs work right next to us and I can see exactly how much it costs to maintain them. The Z28 will cost just as much to maintain as a track rat as a GT3.

 

[Grimace427]

Just confirmed with a Porsche tech; nothing special to maintain the GT3. Oil changes and plugs besides the normal tire and brake wear. Both cars have expensive r-compound tires, both cars have ceramic brakes.

 

[nametoshowothers]

The live-axle has a lot of unsprung weight. Running stiffer spring/damper will make the ride too harsh for everyday driving. Running wider offset wheels (don't bother me with semantics) will just make the ride that much harsher. Both the Boss and GT500 will probably get another 2 secs per lap with just wider and better favorable offset wheels but Ford knows that it's probably not a good compromise for street use.
For race car, my best guess is that they don't really care about competing with Lexus for ride quality.

Your post is not harsh. It's just weird.

No Grimace got it right, the GT500 beat the ZL1 in most categories such as braking, skid path, acceleration and they were about equal in road course wins.

The boss held its own as well in comparo's. The chevy's had their wins as well.

One comment about the rear axle of the Mustangs is that it puts down the power coming out of the corner better (characteristic of the live axle coming out of a corner). Seen many times in sports car racing in Europe and America where mustangs and other american cars are competitive with Europe's race cars.

 

[DMV]

SVT will be lighter. It's still well in development so too early to say with much precision.

 

[WestRace]

Running aggressive offset will hurt the ride so I don't know what Grim talking about. He doesn't know simple physics. Having the wheel further out is equivalent to having more unsprung weight. Impact force to the wheel will be multiplied proportional to the amount of the extra offset.
Changing spark plugs on 911 gt3 requiring removing the bumper so that should be cheaper??? Oil change on 911 should cost more due to extra labor. Changing cooling system requiring lowering entire engine. The cost of maintenance on the 911 is due to the difficult access to the engine bay.

 

[WestRace]

No Grimace got it right, the GT500 beat the ZL1 in most categories such as braking, skid path, acceleration and they were about equal in road course wins.

The boss held its own as well in comparo's. The chevy's had their wins as well.

One comment about the rear axle of the Mustangs is that it puts down the power coming out of the corner better (characteristic of the live axle coming out of a corner). Seen many times in sports car racing in Europe and America where mustangs and other american cars are competitive with Europe's race cars.

Nobody saying about the performance of the live-axle. It's the ride compromise and compliant over bumps. On the race track, both of which are not a concern.

 

[Grimace427]

Running aggressive offset will hurt the ride so I don't know what Grim talking about. He doesn't know simple physics. Having the wheel further out is equivalent to having more unsprung weight. Impact force to the wheel will be multiplied proportional to the amount of the extra offset.
Changing spark plugs on 911 gt3 requiring removing the bumper so that should be cheaper??? Oil change on 911 should cost more due to extra labor. Changing cooling system requiring lowering entire engine. The cost of maintenance on the 911 is due to the difficult access to the engine bay.

• Define 'aggressive offset' wheels and give an example in milimeters compared to stock, please.
• Who is advocating the use of these 'aggressive offset' wheels?
• Exactly how much offset do you think it would take for there to be a noticeable affect on ride quality? Any more offset and the wheels would be sticking out of the fenders. Ride quality then would take a backseat to the tires rubbing the fender wells.
• I have quite a firm grasp on physics, thanks.

• Regarding Porsche maintenance, there is no basic service that requires the removal of the engine other than changing the clutch.
• Porsche techs can have the bumper off in less than 5 minutes. It's just a plastic cover, a DIY'er can have it off in their driveway in 10 minutes.

Nobody saying about the performance of the live-axle.

You did here:

The reason the Mustang could not compete with the ZL1 was because the live axle not able to run wider offset wheels and stiffer springs otherwise the car would be too harsh on the street.

 

[nametoshowothers]

• Define 'aggressive offset' wheels and give an example in milimeters compared to stock, please.
• Who is advocating the use of these 'aggressive offset' wheels?
• Exactly how much offset do you think it would take for there to be a noticeable affect on ride quality? Any more offset and the wheels would be sticking out of the fenders. Ride quality then would take a backseat to the tires rubbing the fender wells.
• I have quite a firm grasp on physics, thanks.

• Regarding Porsche maintenance, there is no basic service that requires the removal of the engine other than changing the clutch.
• Porsche techs can have the bumper off in less than 5 minutes. It's just a plastic cover, a DIY'er can have it off in their driveway in 10 minutes.

You did here:

Once again I agree well said


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[wproctor411]

Running aggressive offset will hurt the ride so I don't know what Grim talking about. He doesn't know simple physics. Having the wheel further out is equivalent to having more unsprung weight. Impact force to the wheel will be multiplied proportional to the amount of the extra offset.
Changing spark plugs on 911 gt3 requiring removing the bumper so that should be cheaper??? Oil change on 911 should cost more due to extra labor. Changing cooling system requiring lowering entire engine. The cost of maintenance on the 911 is due to the difficult access to the engine bay.

What do you call aggressive tread?
I'm running 295 rear/ 285 fronts now, and I don't call that aggressive and the ride isn't much worse than stock Pzeros, they are louder but I'm running Nitto NT05s, it's almost all rubber, very little tread, and they do very good on a wet road (not sure about rain though). The tread wear is 200. An 18" performance tire is much better than running a 19" or 20" rubber band.

I'm planning on getting a set of Vorshlag's custom (secret) offset Forgestar F14s so I can run 18x11 in back and 18x11 in front. I do this for a hobby, not competition, so I can also use the compound tire I chose and will likely go with NT01s or nt555s2 when I do this. I also prefer same size front/rear tires - the cornering is more predictable for me.

https://www.nittotire.com/Tire/Competition/nt555r2 I would like to see a review of these.

 

[WestRace]

• Define 'aggressive offset' wheels and give an example in milimeters compared to stock, please.
• Who is advocating the use of these 'aggressive offset' wheels?
• Exactly how much offset do you think it would take for there to be a noticeable affect on ride quality? Any more offset and the wheels would be sticking out of the fenders. Ride quality then would take a backseat to the tires rubbing the fender wells.
• I have quite a firm grasp on physics, thanks.

• Regarding Porsche maintenance, there is no basic service that requires the removal of the engine other than changing the clutch.
• Porsche techs can have the bumper off in less than 5 minutes. It's just a plastic cover, a DIY'er can have it off in their driveway in 10 minutes.

You did here:

More brain, less bs

 

[scottpe]

More brain, less bs

Asking you to back up your claims with sufficient facts seems pretty reasonable to me...

I'd like to hear your answers to his questions as well. So far your arguments are not very convincing, which leaves one to wonder if the pot is calling the kettle black here.

 

[nametoshowothers]

More brain, less bs

Grimace=brain?

 

[on d bit]

No Grimace got it right, the GT500 beat the ZL1 in most categories such as braking, skid path, acceleration and they were about equal in road course wins.

Equal on the road course? Where did the GT500 lose? :lol:

 

[WestRace]

It's a 2-2 tie. The Camaro faster on a tight track where as the GT500 faster on the longer tracks with longer straight. The Camaro faster around corners because it has wider track, wider tires, and probably stiffer springs/dampers as well. The GT500 could be made faster around corner if Ford would just simply put same wheels, equivalent wheel offsets, and maybe stiffer springs/dampers and the GT500 can simply be just as fast around the corner as the Camaro, BUT because the GT500 has a live axle so the ride compromise would be too much. Ford knows that and that's why it is the way it is. It's grimble ... err .. I mean simple physics. There are just too many compromise using the live-axle. Grimple physics.

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