Made 740whp on 91 octane w/ Whipple

[evotriox88]

Just wanted to share some dyno data. I have a Whipple Gen 4 Stage 2, 3.75 pulley, BBK headers w/ racing midpipe, MBRP exhaust. I made 702 whp with Whipple tune with headers. Made 740whp after dynotune. Very happy with the Whipple.

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[sigintel]

Congrats!

Can you post the actual uncorrected numbers of what was actually made and then the conditions?
Knock values?

Any back to back runs done to see if knock started coming in? (cause you might wanna know before ragging on it on the street when summer comes).

NA correction on FI is like saying you could pulley down more when in all actuality the detonation would kill your ring lands pretty quick.

 

[evotriox88]

So here are the first runs, 731 whp was the best with straight 91. He then put 1/2 bottle of torco in and got an extra 9.

 

[s550cano]

I have this exact setup except on 93. I’m on a base tune waiting for PBD to come off vacation, but you definitely gave me an idea of what to expect. Nice numbers!!

 

[Kong76]

Cleanest engine bay I have seen in quite a while.

 

[evotriox88]

Cleanest engine bay I have seen in quite a while.

Yes, it was a very clean install. Dante’s Modular Performance in San Diego installed it, Addiction Motorsports in Simi Valley Dynotuned it.

 

[Meatball]

Yes, it was a very clean install. Dante’s Modular Performance in San Diego installed it, Addiction Motorsports in Simi Valley Dynotuned it.

Very nice. What gear was it dyno’d in?

I think we’re all curious what your timing & knock sensor feedback was during the run on 91, esp before the octane booster. On the Whipple tune with Octane Adjust off I only see positive knock (bad, but not maxed out so controlled) on straight 91

 

[larr12]

Really good numbers.

 

[Jackson1320]

Very nice. What gear was it dyno’d in?

I think we’re all curious what your timing & knock sensor feedback was during the run on 91, esp before the octane booster. On the Whipple tune with Octane Adjust off I only see positive knock (bad, but not maxed out so controlled) on straight 91

what do you mean by bad but not maxed out ?

 

[Meatball]

what do you mean by bad but not maxed out ?

Sensors seeing knock at baseline timing for the conditions but controlled/eliminated at less than the max timing pull at wot. If the knock wasn’t controllable with timing the Whipple tune (and I’m sure most other canned ones) will start to cut the throttle (unless all the nannies are off, I think. Which I never do).

Controlled or not, I just don’t like seeing positive knock on my nGauge, so I either keep the “Octane Adjust” feature in the tune on or use boostane.

 

[Jackson1320]

Sensors seeing knock at baseline timing for the conditions but controlled/eliminated at less than the max timing pull at wot. If the knock wasn’t controllable with timing the Whipple tune (and I’m sure most other canned ones) will start to cut the throttle (unless all the nannies are off, I think. Which I never do).

Controlled or not, I just don’t like seeing positive knock on my nGauge, so I either keep the “Octane Adjust” feature in the tune on or use boostane.

I don’t know about whipple but other tunes I have seen will not cut throttle. They pull timing until they ether stop the knock or they reach the limit of timing they are allowed to pull.
Every tune I have looked at doesn’t pull timing until the engine starts to knock then it pulls timing until the knock goes away. So knock already happened and the pcm response to it. It’s not like the pcm is pulling timing to keep knock from happening. So the engine already took abuse before the pcm responded. If whipple is the same then I agree I would rather not see any knock at all

 

[engineermike]

I’m in agreement; every time knock happens some damage is being done. Every supercharged coyote tune I’ve seen runs into knock then backs off, then runs into knock again.

It’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I’ve turned off knock advance (oar was already off and would have been ineffective anyway) and have been tuning my borderline tables to stay just below knock. Yes, I’m probably sacrificing 1/2-1 deg of timing but if I reach my goal before the engine blows, then it will ultimately be a safer tune.

 

[Meatball]

Are you sure damage is being done every time there’s knock? It sounds logical but Fords stock tune with the coyote is to push timing until knock occurs then pull back, so it’s on the ragged edge and maxing power. And that’s for a 5/60 warrantied pony car engine that senses octane (via sensing knock for lower octanes) and is intended to survive a teenager beating the hell out of it for 5/60. I think the EB engines use this as well. The FP power pack tunes run even more at the ragged edge, and are warrantied (though 3/36). I know knock is bad in general but it must be much less so when light for the oem tune to use it as a diagnostic fuel octane indicator. Am I wrong here?

I know Whipples tune also seeks the onset of knock (negative KR up to 2 degrees (12:1) or 4 degrees (11:1) at wot). Are they playing with fire? Doesn’t Roush’s conservative tune do this too? I always thought it was a safe way to operate on Coyotes, esp gen2-3 which are global and expect to see crappy gas in many countries yet still use adaptive octane logic.

 

[engineermike]

@Meatball It’s like this...you are correct that the stock strategy advances timing until knock. It uses the knock correction over or under the pre-programmed borderline knock timing to determine an octane correction to the borderline knock timing commanded. The learning takes place within pre-set “safe” load and rpm windows, but is applied pretty much across the board. This limits the knock events in both frequency and severity but also takes advantage of higher octane. Most supercharger calibrations turn off octane adjust. I don’t know why, but I suspect it’s because their borderline knock spark maps aren’t that accurate...not even close to the accuracy of the stock tables. The octane adjust functionality relies on accurate borderline knock spark tables to work properly. Calibrating 6 or 13 or 26 borderline knock spark timing tables can be quite time-consuming, as I have learned.

Most of the aftermarket supercharged cals I’ve looked at disable OAR. As I said, I don’t think it would even work properly if enabled due to inaccuracy of the borderline tables. But, they all leave the knock advance capability on, and unless you are using >95 octane, it will run it into knock every time you go wot. It will clearly work for some time, as the sensong system is quite good and detects it early and reacts quickly. But as I also said, I believe some level of damage is done every time and I wouldn’t expect oem-like 200k mile durability.

 

[Jackson1320]

Are you sure damage is being done every time there’s knock? It sounds logical but Fords stock tune with the coyote is to push timing until knock occurs then pull back, so it’s on the ragged edge and maxing power. And that’s for a 5/60 warrantied pony car engine that senses octane (via sensing knock for lower octanes) and is intended to survive a teenager beating the hell out of it for 5/60. I think the EB engines use this as well. The FP power pack tunes run even more at the ragged edge, and are warrantied (though 3/36). I know knock is bad in general but it must be much less so when light for the oem tune to use it as a diagnostic fuel octane indicator. Am I wrong here?

I know Whipples tune also seeks the onset of knock (negative KR up to 2 degrees (12:1) or 4 degrees (11:1) at wot). Are they playing with fire? Doesn’t Roush’s conservative tune do this too? I always thought it was a safe way to operate on Coyotes, esp gen2-3 which are global and expect to see crappy gas in many countries yet still use adaptive octane logic.

The coyote has borderline spark which is the target and should not have any knock. Then there is MBT spark which is the absolute limit. The coyote should run up to its borderline spark. If there is good octane it will add timing. If it sees knock it will back off timing. It only adds timing if it senses the octane is there and only to the MBT. EB has 9.5 compression so knock is not as bad as a boosted coyote. The coyote was not designed for boost the hit is not as big NA. Every time knock happens the engine takes a hit. It may take 50,000 hits to do damage but it is slowly wearing down parts.

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