Let's talk about the C8 vs the GT500

[martinjlm]

.................

Not following that. The Camaro got IRS with the 5th gen which I thought was a reskinned Holden. Did the Holden ever have a solid rear axle? If not, I would think developing a whole new solid axle for a low volume car would be more expensive than using an existing IRS. Am I wrong about the Camaro being based on a car that already had IRS or am i overlooking something else?

Just because two vehicles are on the same platform doesn’t mean they will get all the same content. It just means the content could be available to the second one at minimal development cost. Example...Alpha has AWD available on all models EXCEPT Camaro. And they are built in the same plant.

Even though both Camaro and Commodore were both Zeta, they were built in separate plants. When the Zeta production module was added at Oshawa, it was not a given that it would have IRS. IRS adds mass and cost. Zeta is a heavy platform to begin with, so removing IRS would have saved a lot of mass and material cost as well as the cost to the installation of the production module. GM made the right choice.

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[9secondko]

so what's Ford's excuse for nixing the ready-for-production IRS back in 2005? It's been celebrated since 2015 when Ford got out their engineer's way and allowed a 10 year old design to come into the light.

Some things are intuitively right - like mid-engine sports cars. Somebody in marketing probably had a hand in killing the mid-corvette in the interests of maintaining the status quo.

My 2003 Cobra had IRS from the factory.
The S197 was all about retro. SRA and all. Even the 500 had the SRA.

it was purposes to have the car old school. Even the previous model has IRS in Cobra trim.

that argument doesn’t hold water when compared to the start/stop development of the mid engine vette since the ‘60s.

why? Because the IRS Mustang actually made it to market. The mid engine vette did not.

In any case, none of that is even to the point. The entire discussion happened because some guy wanted to criticize the 500 fevelopment in comparison to the c8. So s history lesson was provided

 

[9secondko]

I'm only continuing to discuss this because I was no-foolin' part of the process for several years. I'm actually trying to give car guys (not just Corvette guys or Camaro guys) some feel for how stuff happens from the inside. I'm not just trying to mince words with you. The only time it was "actively engineered. Then shut down" was in the transition from C6 to C7 and that was due to the bankruptcy. Otherwise C7 would have been mid-engine.

From 2001 until I retired from GM in 2017 I was in GM Product Portfolio Planning, all but (3) years of that time spent on the Powertrain side of the business, so I was directly involved in the process of determining which engines and transmissions were going into which vehicles, with a 5 - 10 year view of the future. Point being, at the point in time that the need for mid-engine powertrains became apparent, I would have known about it. Yes, there were always low level "test wells" as we referred to them, working on what it might take to do a mid-engine car. There were also test wells on 6-door Suburbans, V10 engines, rotary engines, and all sorts of concepts that never saw the light of day. Those are never considered to be "being worked on". They are exploratory investigations, most of which bear little or no fruit, though the ones that do bear fruit bear delicious fruit, justifying the larger effort.

At some time during this 2001 - 2017 timeframe that I was in Product Planning, Tadge was placed in the Chief Engineer's role under Tom Wallace (then Executive Chief Engineer) to develop C6. Same position Ed Piatek holds now in Tadge's organization. In that role he had the ability to put SERIOUS effort and resources into mid-engine, even though it was clear C6 would be FE. By the time C7 development started, Tadge was Exec. Chief and had the mid-engine concept pretty well ready to go, but bankruptcy hit and the program was cancelled. C7 became "improvement over C6", not "all new". When C7 launched as a front engine, per the Product Plan, Tadge and his team immediately started work on C8 being ME with full blessing of Product Planning and GM leadership. So, even though there were lots of side projects and test wells looking at ME over the years, the real work started when Tadge got to high level positions in Product Engineering.

I believe you Jim. You’re one of the cool GM guys here. You have my respect.

Prior to your time, there were mid engine vette efforts as well - with actual roadgoing prototypes in the 60s.

But your insight is pretty great. Thank you much for sharing. Glad the mid engine is out now rather than in the c7 timeframe with GM in a better place and the tech bring further along.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Glad the mid engine is out now rather than in the c7 timeframe with GM in a better place and the tech bring further along.

If the C7 had been mid engine, I would have been driving one and not likely have ordered my S550. I had no interest in the actual C7. I'll be adding a 2021 C8 if the C8 proves to be reliable and what it seems to be. I'll need to figure out which of my cars it will replace but definitely NOT the Mustang.

 

[EcoVert]

It's interesting that there hasn't been any aftermarket IRS for the s197. Here's a article I found on the canceled Ford IRS for the s197.


http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-blog/2011/09/03/all-about-the-missing-mustang-irs/

 

[9secondko]

People seem to forget that when the S197 was put to market, there was no competition. Nothing. No Camaro, no challenger. Just a cheap platform with a carryover anemic engine.

The Camaro had just died a couple years prior, so Ford had to navigate some tricky waters there. Not using an IRS was a safety factor for them in terms of finances.

It was actually really sad. But Ford new the retro thing was going to be big and that's what sold the car.

However, they did gun for it with the GT500 model, but really only in the engine department. 500 - 550 hp at the time was HUGE. It made the power, but it didn't put it down very well. And it didn't handle like it should have due to the lack of IRS.

But Ford made money off of the platform because they designed it to be cheap. And it was. Even the S550 isn't an expensive platform. But the S197 was downright cheap.

It didn't weigh much and it had an SRA, so given good traction, the Gt and 500 cold take off in a hurry, and they handled well "for an SRA."

the 13 500 probably pushed the live axle suspension to the limit as it actually handled pretty well.

But that was years after platform and powertrain upgrades.

It's no shock that the IRS didn't make it into the S197. ford simply wanted it to be cheap.

 

[EcoVert]

the S197 was put to market,

carryover anemic engine.

Completely wrong when the s197 came out it had a 300HP 3 valve 4.6 not the sn95s 260HP 2 valve 4.6 engine. Ford could have carried over the 2 valve engine if they had wanted and saved more money sense there was no competition but they didn't. You have to look at the 300HP in the context of the time it came out not looking at it in 2019 terms 300HP standard equipment engine from the factory was a big deal in 2004 when the s197 was unveiled to the public.

 

[martinjlm]

Saw this at the Lions / Chiefs game. Well, it is Ford Field...

Stripes are painted on.

 

[4V Mayhem]

lol.. 0-60 is a paper metric. Used to determine if you can beat Karen's mini van to the next stop light. And no one races to top speed. This is isn't Europe. try 1\4 mile.

Quarter mile racing is not always the say all end all. Some people do enjoy stop light runs while others who are more, enthusiastic, enjoy top speed runs. No one parameter is for everyone.

So, true, GM flat out lies just like dodge did with the Demon with its 9.65 ET... lol Some people just don't get it, the mustang is the best car to mod. in the world! Boosted, untuned C8s will be catching on fire while modded GT500s will be going 8's in their first month out of the dealership doors. LMAO...

Well going by what we have seen in the past it will probably be a Mustang that has the chance of catching fire. I've had many Ford (and Ford other) vehicles. I can't tell you how many times I received a notice in the mail to bring a Ford car in to the dealership for a recall related to a fire issue. On the notices were always warnings that said to park the car away from buildings and trees until the service was performed. We also saw the GT350s have fire related recalls. But I doubt that we will see any of this with the GT500 or the C8. At least I hope.

I agree that the Mustang is the best car to mod. The GT500 will be no different. Ford does a good job of building the Mustang to a point that allows the buyer to build it how they want. GM does a good job of building a vehicle that has great out the box performance even if it usually comes at a higher price. I do suspect we will see some 750 - 800+ at minimum RWHP GT500s with nothing more than a pulley and 93 octane. It will be quite exciting to see. Which is why I wish Ford would have made more of them and at a lower price. It would have been the best of everything. Stock high performance with decent options and extreme mod potential on a setup that handles really well and at an affordable price that is available to people who can afford it. That would have been great.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Stripes are painted on.

Did you lay hands on? Some were hoping there was NO tactile indication of the stripes. I suspect there will be since the stripes are added after the base color. Might not be much to feel with the new clear on the panels flowing around the edges but would still be able to feel.

 

[martinjlm]

Did you lay hands on? Some were hoping there was NO tactile indication of the stripes. I suspect there will be since the stripes are added after the base color. Might not be much to feel with the new clear on the panels flowing around the edges but would still be able to feel.

Yeah, there was laying on of hands. The most infinitesimal amount of edge feel. But I could also feel that the minute edge was under the clearcoat. So it was either painted stripe with clearcoat over or the best vinyl stripe job in the history of man.

 

[martinjlm]

Quarter mile racing is not always the say all end all. Some people do enjoy stop light runs while others who are more, enthusiastic, enjoy top speed runs. No one parameter is for everyone.

Well going by what we have seen in the past it will probably be a Mustang that has the chance of catching fire.

One day I was driving my ‘79 Mustang Pace Car and noticed people waving at me. I figured “yeah, I know. Cool car. Thanks for noticing”. Came to a stop light and smoke started billowing up my windshield. I was a block away from a fire station so I pulled into the parking lot of the drug store across the street from the fire station. That was smart. The next thing I did was not so smart. I got out and opened the hood.

Long story short, the fire crew put out the fire. Root cause turned out to be the gas line leaked right onto the turbo. Brilliant engineering to put the gas line right above the hottest part of the engine.

 

[EcoVert]

Brilliant engineering to put the gas line right above the hottest part of the engine.

I know what you mean but I've seen some brilliant engineering from all the different auto makers. One that comes to mind is having to take the front bumper cover off in order to change a head light in a Malibu.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Yeah, there was laying on of hands. The most infinitesimal amount of edge feel. But I could also feel that the minute edge was under the clearcoat. So it was either painted stripe with clearcoat over or the best vinyl stripe job in the history of man.

I'm not doubting it was painted. I was pretty sure you could feel the "edge" or more accurately the flow of clear transitioning from the stripe and the rest of the panel. Some members here were hoping it would be undetectable but I didn't see how that was possible without putting 3 times the clear and sanding the part over the stripe to the same level as the rest of the panel and did not think that was practical not to mention risking having to start over.

 

[9secondko]

Completely wrong when the s197 came out it had a 300HP 3 valve 4.6 not the sn95s 260HP 2 valve 4.6 engine. Ford could have carried over the 2 valve engine if they had wanted and saved more money sense there was no competition but they didn't. You have to look at the 300HP in the context of the time it came out not looking at it in 2019 terms 300HP standard equipment engine from the factory was a big deal in 2004 when the s197 was unveiled to the public.

It was carryover in that it should have been making plenty more power for a V8. 300 was only OK. We had 320 hp in the Mach 1 prior. it wasn’t great. It was weak. I took a resurrected Camaro to finally push the GT above 400 HP. WE had to deal with even Hyundai V6 cars competing with the S197 GT. Not cool. Not cool at all. Ford di as little as possible to sell the car. They had to do SOMETHING on the new platform. But they didn’t do much of anything in terms of power.

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