Is it really free will?

[Briebee72]

Was talking with someone the other day. They said that god gave man free will. My questions is do I really have free will? I mean depending on your religion and the vernacular it uses. IN some sort of form or fashion you have to conform to a specific set of instructions/ rules/ steps and behave in a certain manor and live your life a certain way or your deity of choice won't let you into whatever after life you believe in. Do things my way or else more or less. So I ask is that really free will?

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[SiMuL]

Which begs the next question: Does God do anything at all, if he has truly given everyone free will? The logical answer: No, he doesn't do anything at all, or he's a Goddamned liar. Even if he so much as moved the wind in one direction or another, he has thwarted his will on the rest of us.

It would be nice if religions recognized their own silliness. The logic bombs they produce are entertaining, though.

 

[Doc69]

Imaginary Friends...

 

[Hack]

Was talking with someone the other day. They said that god gave man free will. My questions is do I really have free will? I mean depending on your religion and the vernacular it uses. IN some sort of form or fashion you have to conform to a specific set of instructions/ rules/ steps and behave in a certain manor and live your life a certain way or your deity of choice won't let you into whatever after life you believe in. Do things my way or else more or less. So I ask is that really free will?

Of course you have free will. 30 seconds looking at fails on YouTube will confirm that people do all kinds of dumb things all the time. And other people excel to the highest degree. Every day we make choices that form our future lives.

There are lots of things you could do right now that would land you in prison. It's more complicated, but you could make the right choices and end up very wealthy. There are many worthwhile goals you can come up with and if you work hard to pursue them you are likely to achieve them.

I think of organized religion and especially the bible as a book with a lot of common sense advice about how to live your life. Whether you want to believe that there is an actual omniscient being out there or not, following (most of) the advice in the bible is a really good idea.

 

[Hack]

Which begs the next question: Does God do anything at all, if he has truly given everyone free will? The logical answer: No, he doesn't do anything at all, or he's a Goddamned liar. Even if he so much as moved the wind in one direction or another, he has thwarted his will on the rest of us.

It would be nice if religions recognized their own silliness. The logic bombs they produce are entertaining, though.

I don't believe you have a causal relationship there. Good try though.

 

[SiMuL]

I don't believe you have a causal relationship there. Good try though.

Hack, my example was more than sound and made my point quite clearly. If God affects even the slightest quark in the universe he has thwarted free will and has set his own agenda in some way. Causality has nothing to do with my point.

 

[SiMuL]

Was talking with someone the other day. They said that god gave man free will. My questions is do I really have free will? I mean depending on your religion and the vernacular it uses. IN some sort of form or fashion you have to conform to a specific set of instructions/ rules/ steps and behave in a certain manor and live your life a certain way or your deity of choice won't let you into whatever after life you believe in. Do things my way or else more or less. So I ask is that really free will?

More to your point, you could say that we have a limited free will, at best. We are still limited by our nature and the limits of our current physical form and by the choices presented to us in each moment of now. There really is no such thing as "free" will in the universe, simply by the nature of the way the universe works. Everything has it's purpose and it can't really define itself outside of that purpose.

 

[Hack]

Hack, my example was more than sound and made my point quite clearly. If God affects even the slightest quark in the universe he has thwarted free will and has set his own agenda in some way. Causality has nothing to do with my point.

There's no causal relationship between God doing something and human free will being thwarted. That's like saying that I can't have free will if you have free will. It's just incorrect.

 

[Hack]

More to your point, you could say that we have a limited free will, at best. We are still limited by our nature and the limits of our current physical form and by the choices presented to us in each moment of now. There really is no such thing as "free" will in the universe, simply by the nature of the way the universe works. Everything has it's purpose and it can't really define itself outside of that purpose.

Those really aren't limitations on free will, they are just limitations on what we can accomplish.

 

[SiMuL]

Now I'm questioning your ability to think logically or perhaps we're arguing different meanings for the word "will". If you affect one molecule in a system, you have thwarted your desire on it. You've changed its state from what it would have otherwise been. That's the concept of will that I'm using here.

If I cause the water to hit your face, I've imposed my will on you. Maybe you didn't want to get wet and I've now caused something that you didn't desire, which is against your will in very simple technical terms. This would be the same thing in my example of God changing the direction of the wind. He (she/it/whatever) has imposed its desire on a system that was otherwise already operating on its own accord.

If we truly have free will, then God does nothing. If God does do anything to affect the universe in any way, then free will is not possible, only the will of God. Now, you could say that everything IS God, therefore, God's will and free will are the same thing. God IS doing everything AS the universe, so technically, all will is God's will, including our's.

 

[Hack]

Now I'm questioning your ability to think logically or perhaps we're arguing different meanings for the word "will". If you affect one molecule in a system, you have thwarted your desire on it. You've changed its state from what it would have otherwise been. That's the concept of will that I'm using here.

If I cause the water to hit your face, I've imposed my will on you. Maybe you didn't want to get wet and I've now caused something that you didn't desire, which is against your will in very simple technical terms. This would be the same thing in my example of God changing the direction of the wind. He (she/it/whatever) has imposed its desire on a system that was otherwise already operating on its own accord.

If we truly have free will, then God does nothing. If God does do anything to affect the universe in any way, then free will is not possible, only the will of God. Now, you could say that everything IS God, therefore, God's will and free will are the same thing. God IS doing everything AS the universe, so technically, all will is God's will, including our's.

Free will is something that happens inside our minds, independent of anything we choose to actually do or not do. I'm free to consider whether I will do something or not. Whether I'm going to succeed in doing that thing or whether I even decide to try it doesn't make my will a slave.

You throw water towards me, because you decide that it's a good idea to do so. If you don't manage to hit me with the water, that doesn't mean you don't have free will. It just means you throw like a girl.

I may consider ramming my FiST into another car on the way home - because they are driving too slowly. But I will probably stop myself from doing it because I don't want to go through the repercussions. My will is free even though I constrain myself from doing something stupid. If I didn't have free will it wouldn't even occur to me that I might prefer to ram into someone rather than just following traffic like a lemming.

 

[Doc69]

Free Will vs Acquired Morality...

 

[Hack]

Free Will vs Acquired Morality...

Even with a very short and vague statement I'm still going to argue with you and say you are incorrect. It's not vs, it's both together. The concept of morality implies free will. A person can't be moral if they don't have free will.

 

[Doc69]

Even with a very short and vague statement I'm still going to argue with you and say you are incorrect. It's not vs, it's both together. The concept of morality implies free will. A person can't be moral if they don't have free will.

Morality is environmental..and you are going to say everybody’s incorrect..except You...
Regards

 

[Hack]

Morality is environmental..and you are going to say everybody’s incorrect..except You...
Regards

I agree that morality is environmental. You are correct - on that...

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