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Is it really free will?

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Hack

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So, takes us full circle to the question of whether we really have free will...
I would apply Occam's Razor in this case.
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Free will = yes
Control of consequences = no
 

Hack

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To chose between what alternatives?
I thought it would be apparent.

I said we have free will.

You implied and I said that God could control everyone and make them think that they have free will but really God is controlling them. So then maybe we don't really have free will but rather it's an elaborate hoax being played on all of us.

I said Occam's Razor - in other words the simplest explanation is most likely.
 

Caballus

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I thought it would be apparent.

I said we have free will.

You implied and I said that God could control everyone and make them think that they have free will but really God is controlling them. So then maybe we don't really have free will but rather it's an elaborate hoax being played on all of us.

I said Occam's Razor - in other words the simplest explanation is most likely.
Sorry, I am not saying that God can control everyone and make them think they have free will. I am saying that if God influences our will, then it it is still our will because God is part of us--according to Christian beliefs. The logical counter to that would be to assert that free will means free of God's influence, which is counter to Christian belief (Deism being the obvious exception).

Regarding Occam's Razor, as I was taught it, requires evidential support--empirical or otherwise. So, without some sort of substantiation, it's difficult to apply the razor in this instance, because religion is based on faith, not evidence.
 

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Hack

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Sorry, I am not saying that God can control everyone and make them think they have free will. I am saying that if God influences our will, then it it is still our will because God is part of us--according to Christian beliefs. The logical counter to that would be to assert that free will means free of God's influence, which is counter to Christian belief (Deism being the obvious exception).

Regarding Occam's Razor, as I was taught it, requires evidential support--empirical or otherwise. So, without some sort of substantiation, it's difficult to apply the razor in this instance, because religion is based on faith, not evidence.
Interesting thoughts. I haven't heard the "God is part of us" thing said that way before, but I'm with you on it. I think even if God isn't part of us and even if God influences SOME of our actions, we can still have free will if God doesn't influence ALL of our actions.

If you are comparing two explanations of why something happens or what is happening, Occam's Razor just says that the simplest explanation is most likely. If you have all kinds of evidence in favor of one or the other cause, then the evidence could sway you to the more complex explanation. In the absence of evidence or if the evidence is insufficient as a guide, O.R. would favor a simple explanation over a complex one. To me Occam's Razor is a statistical type of premise. What is more likely with a coin toss, 50 heads in a row, or 25 heads and 25 tails? What is more likely in any situation, something very complex - or something simple?
 

Caballus

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Interesting thoughts. I haven't heard the "God is part of us" thing said that way before, but I'm with you on it. I think even if God isn't part of us and even if God influences SOME of our actions, we can still have free will if God doesn't influence ALL of our actions.

If you are comparing two explanations of why something happens or what is happening, Occam's Razor just says that the simplest explanation is most likely. If you have all kinds of evidence in favor of one or the other cause, then the evidence could sway you to the more complex explanation. In the absence of evidence or if the evidence is insufficient as a guide, O.R. would favor a simple explanation over a complex one. To me Occam's Razor is a statistical type of premise. What is most likely with a coin toss, 50 heads in a row, or 25 heads and 25 tails? What is most likely in any situation, something very complex - or something simple?
The strongest argument for free will in Christian context is supported by Deism, which is founded on the concept of free will granted by God.

Agree in general with your description of the razor, but trap with it is oversimplification. The compared explanations have to be justified in their own right before the razor can be applied. Unlike the coin toss analgoy, in the case of religion, it cannot be explained because it is completely faith based. There is no tangible measurement or justification that can be used to explain it. Therefore, from a scientific standpoint, the razor cannot be logically applied.
 

Hack

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The strongest argument for free will in Christian context is supported by Deism, which is founded on the concept of free will granted by God.

Agree in general with your description of the razor, but trap with it is oversimplification. The compared explanations have to be justified in their own right before the razor can be applied. Unlike the coin toss analgoy, in the case of religion, it cannot be explained because it is completely faith based. There is no tangible measurement or justification that can be used to explain it. Therefore, from a scientific standpoint, the razor cannot be logically applied.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that people can't have free will without there being religion involved? I think it's obvious we have free will.
 

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I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that people can't have free will without there being religion involved? I think it's obvious we have free will.
Depends on religious belief. As the OP said, if one believes in most versions of Christianity (Deism being an obvious exception), then the only way to have free will is to believe that our will includes God's will. They are inseparable; therefore they are one in the same.

Otherwise, we do not have free will because all thoughts and actions are influenced by a higher being.
 

Hack

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Depends on religious belief. As the OP said, if one believes in most versions of Christianity (Deism being an obvious exception), then the only way to have free will is to believe that our will includes God's will. They are inseparable; therefore they are one in the same.

Otherwise, we do not have free will because all thoughts and actions are influenced by a higher being.
The universe is unnecessarily complex if every single thought and action of every person is governed by some higher being. Without evidence/proof, that scenario is unlikely and I reject it.

I disagree with your statement that the beliefs of mainstream Christianity preclude free will.
 

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Hack

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The basic premise of Christianity is that people have trouble behaving properly and they need help. IMO that basic premise implies free will.
 

Caballus

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Premise of religion as interpreted by whom? Certainly not as laid out by the Scripture, which doesn't seek to justify Christianity. It is...because it is. The idea that people need help behaving is a rationalization from outside the religious community.

From a religious perspective, the question of free will is inherently contradictory. If our destiny is preordained, per Ephesians 1, then we have zero free will. On the other hand, there are several other passages that contradict that one. Additionally, from a practical perspective, if our fate is predetermined and we have no control over our will, why bother trying? I'm going to Heaven or Hell and I have no say. In this case, religion is certainly not a behavioral control mechanism.

So, if religion is factored in, it boils down to belief...faith...interpretation. Does God control us or does he grant us self-control and then determine our fate based on our thoughts and actions?
 

Hack

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Premise of religion as interpreted by whom? Certainly not as laid out by the Scripture, which doesn't seek to justify Christianity. It is...because it is. The idea that people need help behaving is a rationalization from outside the religious community.

From a religious perspective, the question of free will is inherently contradictory. If our destiny is preordained, per Ephesians 1, then we have zero free will. On the other hand, there are several other passages that contradict that one. Additionally, from a practical perspective, if our fate is predetermined and we have no control over our will, why bother trying? I'm going to Heaven or Hell and I have no say. In this case, religion is certainly not a behavioral control mechanism.

So, if religion is factored in, it boils down to belief...faith...interpretation. Does God control us or does he grant us self-control and then determine our fate based on our thoughts and actions?
So why do you think that a significant part of any Christian faith is the fact that God forgives our sins? And yes, it says in the bible that God forgives our sins. So yes, it is laid out in scripture.

The 10 commandments are in the bible. Guidelines on what to do and what not to do. And there's a ton of additional common sense advice in the bible. IMO the lions share of the bible is advice. Some is straight up advice, but much of it is told metaphorically through stories.

IF we don't have free will, why would we need advice or our sins forgiven?

I see zero conflict between an all powerful God and free will. I'm open to being taught something new though.
 

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Was talking with someone the other day. They said that god gave man free will. My questions is do I really have free will? I mean depending on your religion and the vernacular it uses. IN some sort of form or fashion you have to conform to a specific set of instructions/ rules/ steps and behave in a certain manor and live your life a certain way or your deity of choice won't let you into whatever after life you believe in. Do things my way or else more or less. So I ask is that really free will?
This is really a great question, and many Christians are split on this issue. Most evangelicals such as myself believe in free will. I will do my best to explain what initially appears to be circular reasoning. I believe that God knows all and everything - so he already knows which way one is going to believe. I also believe that God gives people free will. To put that into perspective, suppose you have a mouse in a maze. You know that the mouse will go for the cheese, but, you give the mouse a choice in that if it decides to go another way, they can. So the mouse isn't forced into going to the cheese - you aren't pushing it, you (more of less) know it's going to go for the cheese.

In terms of evangelicalism, I believe that God already knows if someone is going to hell. But I believe that if I talk to them about Jesus, and they decide on their own to believe in him, they will not go to hell. I am ultimately a tool that God uses. So from my mindset, not knowing what God knows, I should spread the Gospel to those who are willing to discuss it. Some of which may believe in Him, and others won't, but I know that I did what I believe to be right. In my mind, if free choice didn't exist, then God wouldn't have give people consciousness and decision making skills. God knew Adam would eat the apple, even though he didn't want him to. Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified, but even so prayed that "let this cup pass from me" (Matther 26:39, KJV).

While I don't expect this will change your opinion, I hope it at least explains how some of us "Free will" Christians think.
 

Hack

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This is really a great question, and many Christians are split on this issue. Most evangelicals such as myself believe in free will. I will do my best to explain what initially appears to be circular reasoning. I believe that God knows all and everything - so he already knows which way one is going to believe. I also believe that God gives people free will. To put that into perspective, suppose you have a mouse in a maze. You know that the mouse will go for the cheese, but, you give the mouse a choice in that if it decides to go another way, they can. So the mouse isn't forced into going to the cheese - you aren't pushing it, you (more of less) know it's going to go for the cheese.

In terms of evangelicalism, I believe that God already knows if someone is going to hell. But I believe that if I talk to them about Jesus, and they decide on their own to believe in him, they will not go to hell. I am ultimately a tool that God uses. So from my mindset, not knowing what God knows, I should spread the Gospel to those who are willing to discuss it. Some of which may believe in Him, and others won't, but I know that I did what I believe to be right. In my mind, if free choice didn't exist, then God wouldn't have give people consciousness and decision making skills. God knew Adam would eat the apple, even though he didn't want him to. Jesus knew that he was going to be crucified, but even so prayed that "let this cup pass from me" (Matther 26:39, KJV).

While I don't expect this will change your opinion, I hope it at least explains how some of us "Free will" Christians think.
Good post. I think some people want to bring down religion and they think that logic is a tool that can be used to do it. The argument looks like it's attacking free will, but really it's going after the existence of God.

By my way of thinking - I can't prove whether or not God exists, but either way I think it is smart to behave as though there is a God. The "rules" in the bible mostly just help people to get by and live a good life. Going against the bible's advice tends to be self-destructive.
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