Is Ford lacking on performance?

[millhouse]

How is it not fair? Ford intended for it to be a certain price, and just because some people want the car bad enough to pay extra for it does not mean that that's its intended market. If that were the case, we'd be comparing GT350Rs to Z06s

Agreed. An item is worth what someone wants to pay for it. It's the dealers that are making the extra profits, not Ford.

And it's funny some people like to compare a supercharged 6.2L camaro making 650HP and 650lb-ft of torque against a mustang with a 5.2L engine making 526hp and 429lb-ft of torque...and then puffing their chests when it manages a puny 0.39 second win around a (large, fast) track. I'm curious if the GT350R would have actually beat the Zl1 around a smaller, more technical track such as Streets of Willow.

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[tyler2k]

I'm sorry but all this, well if ford put a blower on the gt350 it would kill the zl1 or why are we compairing them when one has 650 and the other has 529 hp, sounds like the old ls1 guys crying about the terminator having a blower on it. bottom line they are compared because of what the car is for and price point and the zl1 wins In that reguard. yea the gt350r is a better driving experience but that's not what we're talking about. we're talking performance plain and simple the zl1 wins in that

 

[Norm Peterson]

That's similar to my thinking. Ford used to have a track pack for the S197s, but they changed the name to Performance Pack for the S550 GTs, so I figured they were protecting themselves from saying it's a full-on track car.

More likely so they could sell the package to lots of people who would never, ever take a car out on a real race track. "Performance" doesn't sound nearly as hardcore (or hard-riding) as 'Track'.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I didn't buy a PP1 to have a track ready car. Who would even confuse PP1 as a track car? Who, indeed?

But before the advent of the PP2, Ford had to have been hoping that people would assume that the PP1 could fill that role without having to rework too much. They just might have under-estimated what people who would track a PP1 might want from an "out of the box" GT/PP.

It has regular HP summer tires.

Which is an entirely appropriate tire category when you're first getting started (tire sizing being a separate matter). Summer performance tires are better suited for a rainy track day than R-comps, and can save you having to invest in a tow rig to get you to the track and back when you're no longer a novice.

PP2 is closer to a track pack, but I don't believe Ford ever advertised it in this way. Even at that, the PP2 is a great bargain for someone looking at a starting point for a track car.

Undoubtedly, Ford is thinking along a similar line.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

Late to this conversation but the way I look at it the Base/Premium GT does get compared to the SS. Like it, or not, they are both the lowest cost V8 offering so they are naturally compared to each other.

That's the way you'd compare the Mustang against the Camaro when you look at cars as devices for transporting you from here to there, or as production numbers, inventory, and sales commissions. Performance enthusiasts don't look at these cars the same way.


Norm

 

[bootlegger]

But before the advent of the PP2, Ford had to have been hoping that people would assume that the PP1 could fill that role without having to rework too much. They just might have under-estimated what people who would track a PP1 might want from an "out of the box" GT/PP.

I don't think a company like Ford, with decades of racing experience, assumed this would fill the role of a track car. Thus, they offer the Ford Racing Track suspension kits. PP1 is basically just a handling and "looks" package for the base mustang. If all you want is a base GT with some extra handling goodies, the PP1 is still a decent deal. Those of us hooked by the allure of magneride tend to lose some of that benefit. You can pay a little more for the PP2 (cloth), and you have a nice base track setup. If you want a premium (leather) interior and track level performance, the 1LE is a great deal.

Which is an entirely appropriate tire category when you're first getting started (tire sizing being a separate matter). Summer performance tires are better suited for a rainy track day than R-comps, and can save you having to invest in a tow rig to get you to the track and back when you're no longer a novice.

I was comparing to something like a Sport Cup 2 on the PP2, which is a streetable track tire (rain or dry). Now the 18 PP1 does have a more acceptable tire, but the previous PP1 tires were extremely lacking for track use. And as you said, the tire size should also tell you that this wasn't a track package. To be honest, the only part of the PP1 package I am really disappointed with is the staggered tires and 255 up front. Square with 285s would have been my choice.

 

[Abb0nz]

That's the way you'd compare the Mustang against the Camaro when you look at cars as devices for transporting you from here to there, or as production numbers, inventory, and sales commissions. Performance enthusiasts don't look at these cars the same way.


Norm

Agree 100%.

 

[howlins550]

I don't think a company like Ford, with decades of racing experience, assumed this would fill the role of a track car. Thus, they offer the Ford Racing Track suspension kits. PP1 is basically just a handling and "looks" package for the base mustang. If all you want is a base GT with some extra handling goodies, the PP1 is still a decent deal. Those of us hooked by the allure of magneride tend to lose some of that benefit. You can pay a little more for the PP2 (cloth), and you have a nice base track setup. If you want a premium (leather) interior and track level performance, the 1LE is a great deal.


I was comparing to something like a Sport Cup 2 on the PP2, which is a streetable track tire (rain or dry). Now the 18 PP1 does have a more acceptable tire, but the previous PP1 tires were extremely lacking for track use. And as you said, the tire size should also tell you that this wasn't a track package. To be honest, the only part of the PP1 package I am really disappointed with is the staggered tires and 255 up front. Square with 285s would have been my choice.

You can't get a PP2 with cloth, it requires you to have the top premium interior

 

[Kevin08]

You can't get a PP2 with cloth, it requires you to have the top premium interior

This is false. You only need 301A for PP2.

 

[howlins550]

This is false. You only need 301A for PP2.

Well that dirty dealer lied haha... I would have to have leather over cloth tho, but good to know

 

[Norm Peterson]

I think, as many others have already said, the competition for the standard SS. It's not meant to go up against the 1LE, and should never be compared to that car.

I never did consider the PP1 to be on the same level as the 1LE, not even when it first appeared. But for some reason, MT compared those two not once, but twice. With the same general result (just more so the second time around).

In one of the early comparisons, there was a specific comment concerning the PP1's shock damping calibration, which could have told people all they needed to know about how serious (not) Ford was about its track capability. That's if 30mm less front tire in a taller profile than the apparent competition wasn't a big enough hint.

Bottom line is that it is a performance car. Just because it doesn't fit your standard of "performance" doesn't make it not a performance car.

Of course. But that doesn't mean that Ford tried hard enough, either. The PP2 is pretty strong evidence that eventually even they realized they hadn't.

So suppose I take my cornering standards (whatever those might be) and turn that 90° so that it's about forward acceleration instead? How much more commotion do you think there would have been if the PP1 had started out being clearly beaten at the dragstrip, and instead of catching up in round 2, fell still further behind?


Norm

 

[Silver Bullitt]

You can't get a PP2 with cloth, it requires you to have the top premium interior

Not only can you get a PP2 with cloth, you can get cloth Recaros with no upcharge (at least for MY 18). My PP2 w/ active exhaust and Recaros stickered for $45,485. With rebates and private cash, I'm at $39,750. I think that's pretty decent value if you ask me.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Yes, it's a performance car. That's what spawned this conversation, was that Norm was saying the car isn't deserving of the "performance pack" moniker, which I am saying is incorrect.

When it takes your "performance pack" to only run even with (at most, slightly ahead of) the competition's non-performance-packaged car, it's hard to take it as seriously as Ford obviously hopes I would.

Advertising and marketing folks probably hate people like me who don't simply take their word for it on what they're trying to sell. No matter what it is they want me to buy (not just cars and car stuff).


Norm

 

[howlins550]

When it takes your "performance pack" to only run even with (at most, slightly ahead of) the competition's non-performance-packaged car, it's hard to take it as seriously as Ford obviously hopes I would.

Advertising and marketing folks probably hate people like me who don't simply take their word for it on what they're trying to sell. No matter what it is they want me to buy (not just cars and car stuff).


Norm

That's what I'm saying, you market and advertise functional aero, wide tires, stiffer suspension blah blah blah, then end with it is not a track car or competition to the 1le....what the hell Ford

 

[millhouse]

When it takes your "performance pack" to only run even with (at most, slightly ahead of) the competition's non-performance-packaged car, it's hard to take it as seriously as Ford obviously hopes I would.

Advertising and marketing folks probably hate people like me who don't simply take their word for it on what they're trying to sell. No matter what it is they want me to buy (not just cars and car stuff).


Norm

And GM knows they missed the mark on the SS, making it too performance oriented (more $$$)...so they are reducing content and tire sizes to better compete with the GT. It goes both ways.

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