Is a 2019GT350R worth the extra vs the 2019GT350

[Stuntman]

you obviously didn't get it. The 19 updates to the base car is what they learned from the R, just look at the grill and aero they did. They obviously can't make the same car... (you honestly think they will have a same wing and spoiler?) then what is the point of having a gt350 and a gt350r... and of course parts commonality reduces costs, what do you think all the car manufactuers do across different models... they can't all have the same parts exactly but they share when they can... whatever.. some people just don't get it some do, what needs to be said is said and what is done is done. Its all up to FP anyway.

What exactly was "learned from the R"? Only the grill was used from the R. Nothing else from 2019 was "learned from" nor were "Most of the 19 changes to the base car was from the R". Not the wheels, not the tires, not the suspension, not the aero (other than the grill, also for parts commonality). What differentiates the R is the wheels, special Cup 2 tires, wing, splitter, and rear seat delete. Why you would insinuate anyone would think Ford would put any of that on a regular GT350 is beyond me.

You seem to imply the R has the 500 rack because it's cheaper and it's not outright better. Then explain the price increase and why the rack isn't in the GT350. Why would they put something worse on the flagship GT350R?

It makes sense that the GT500 geometry and rack is overall better for the S550 chassis. If it wasn't, they wouldn't put it on the R. If it costs more, it would explain the R's increased price, and be the reason why they didn't put it on the base GT350, which would increase it's price. Your argument is all over the place with no reasoning.

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[awildpony]

go ahead and say my argument's all over the place when its just you that don't get it. It's honestly not that hard to understand. what I meant with this statement "Most of the 19 changes to the base car was from the R" was they did the changes to the 19 350 based on their experience (lessons) from the R, and to get it closer to the R, which FP said. Again they can't just put the same R specific parts directly into the base car... I don't know why you keep thinking that.

Also I didn't state they are putting something worse, no one knows at this point whether its good or bad. it's not outright better because it just isn't. I don't care if the 500 rack is cheaper or more expensive, it is not designed for the R, it is designed for the 500. They put the part into the R to save money which is true, its cheaper not because of the part itself its because they can just produce the same part... I didn't say the new part would be worse, it means they have to retune the whole front to work with the R and whether that retune can be the same as the really good steering the original R had is questionable. If you've driven the R, you would know how good the steering response is. FP said the main purpose of this is to reduce tramlining, the rest is marketing.

As for the price increase, it happens every year in the auto industry... manufacturers make price increase without even making changes, don't know why you think if theres a price increase the product must be better. Auto manufacturers must love ones like you. I already explained why the rack won't be in the gt350. The rack works with the 500 and of course it will work for the R, but the part is just a part you need to get over this, its designed and tuned for the heavy front end of the 500 with the supercharger, the R doesn't have that, its going to work obviously but the R doesn't need it, especially when it was so good to begin with. This change is due to production needs and marketing other than a true improvement, that's what I'm trying to say.

Of course you can go for the 20 R if you believe what you believe, Im just saying personally the changes aren't real improvements and doesn't justify the price increase, and I'd also like to have the original R setup, so I'm going to look for a previous year R. Don't want to keep arguing with you, its really a simple issue, you whether get it or you don't. You can do what you want, keep believing and buy what you like, its your car at the end of the day.

 

[sigintel]

TLDR: new suspension changes is desirable.

Dunno, but I ‘assume’ the geometry change includes a higher kingpin/caster angle which substantially improves dynamic camber. Tons of benefits.

Imagine setting up a car for circle track making only one turn. One side gets positive camber and the other gets negative camber.
Caster angle provides this dynamically, in the correct direction (negative once side, positive opposite side)!

My Whippled 2015 I moved the lower K member 0.6” forward 2016 and another ~1.0” forward 2017 season to increase the caster angle. This allowed me to decrease the static camber to keep a wider contact patch flat in 150+ mph braking (less static camber means flatter contact patches straight line braking). Higher caster angle means dynamically adding desired camber in the desired manner BOTH inside and outside tires when you turn the wheel.

When I tried only adding the static camber for cornering, inside tire shoulders would get roasted in 150+ mph braking. But if I didnt add static camber, the outside shoulders got roasted in corners. So roasting outside shoulders in turns and inside shoulders braking. Great.... Caster(kingpin) angle is the answer. This will likely increase steering rack margin requirements which is fine. Lol, I know I trashed mine.

It is important to consider contact patch management on the inside tire when cornering. With high static camber and lower caster, the inside tire in a corner will have horrible opposite camber: a contact patch heavily overloading the inside shoulder with the outside shoulder tread possibly completely unloaded. Increased caster significantly improves the camber angle in the direction needed dynamically!

The added weight jacking is a whole ‘nother conversation.


A sharp eye *might* notice this difference evident in available GT500 track photos with inside corner visible particularly with the chassis and tires saturated at limit.

I suspect Ford engineers might have seen the inside front tire was “contact patch challenged” if they tried to further tune the abs to take advantage of the inside front load. A highly skewed load patch can create wonky ABS tuning issues. Eventually someone says wtf and points a camera (maybe even a thermal imaging type) at the inside corner and notices the inside shoulder is basically dragging around the corner with horrible sidewall interaction.

The caster angle will eventually be released with alignment specs, or maybe Ford will do a special video on it with thermal imaging cameras showing differences on the same track/vehicle/etc only with the geometry change. (that be interesting + marketing)

They likely did suspension tuning on this change alone on the GT350. They might desire as few variables as possible to understand what they were getting into. Then maybe add in the increased weight and power of the GT500 and final tune. I DOUBT they solely developed this on the GT500 and then brought it over to the GT350 as an after thought. Most engineers reduce variables/complexity/risk when possible so my bet is this was tuned on GT350 first. Again, Ford, please spot light some engineers and do a video presentation on this?

 

[awildpony]

dont get how one can say the change is "desirable" when no one tested and no one drove the new car yet.

the best way to say it at this point is the change is going to be different, of course not going to be worse (well might be a possibility) but i have faith in FP... but its not going to be outright "better", especially when the original R's steering was already so good. Steering feel is one thing and pretty dependent on the person and how he/she uses it, the other is we expected something much more as an improvement. What they did isn't really substantial and hard to justify the price increase, and thats where most of the complaints are coming from.

If they really wanted to improve the car there's plenty other things they can do that can improve it. If you know Ford's production well enough you'd know the primary reason they're doing this to share parts which is to save money not to improving the car. They're not going to spend more time and money on a car that's going to end production soon.

And yes the new front steering setup is pretty much developed and designed for the gt500 because of how different the front end weight is between the cars. And now the parts are flowing back to the Rs.

 

[FLETCshooter]

My two cents. 1) Test drive both before you buy. 2) If the question was about competitively tracking the car and which one was better, the answer would be easy - buy a track only car. Why anyone would think either car was anything but a weekend warrior track car makes me laugh. Yes the R is better for the track! It is set up to be that way. But is it worth worrying about the CF wheels getting messed up or the bragging rights of owning an R? I could have easily afforded an R, but why pay the extra money? They are both great cars. We all buy what we want and can afford, but the OP will need to decide if the difference is worth it. Again - test drive both! Our opinions are biased based on our own experiences and desires. I drove both and picked the 2019 GT350. Coming from a 2015 Z/28 I wanted more comfort and the base was still a blast to drive. With some minor mods and some boost (with the new block I'm more comfortable doing); which I'll do with money saved from buying an R, this car will be insane! In the end, neither will be collector cars (but the R will hold its value better) so get what rings your bell. Too me the GT350 needed more power and torque - so that is what I'm investing in. For some it maybe the CF wheels or bragging rights of owning an R. I couldn't give a $h!T what others think about my car. Its my car! What I care about is the driving experience. So I'll repeat myself again - test drive both! In today's market you should be able to find two. I would suggest driving the R first. Just because it is better.

 

[sigintel]

And yes the new front steering setup is pretty much developed and designed for the gt500 because of how different the front end weight is between the cars.

Uhh Not exactly.
Caster and camber geometry is dependent on travel position.
The springs and sway bar are different between the GT500 and R resulting in the same travel position per chassis loading. Maybe if Ford publishes the 500/R suspension position data overlaid on the lap videos from Gattan you’d approve?
Dunno, could be a deep state conspiracy where Ford screws up the GT350R handling?

 

[BillyJRacing]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the GT350s because they're all great and very special cars.

GT350R's are more rare, are faster, and hold their value a little better than regular GT350s (which already hold their value pretty well for a new car). The increased downforce, aggressive Cup 2 tires, and especially the under-rated carbon wheels (which make a HUGE difference) all add to the improved steering, handling, and performance of the R over a base GT350.

The 2015-18 GT350R is quite a bit faster than the 2015-18 GT350. This R also won Best Drivers Car along with many accolades, but the GT350 is still an amazing car.

-The 2019 GT350 has bespoke Cup 2 tires that are more in line with the bespoke PSS tires they replace in terms of wet grip, longevity, and overall 'streetability'.

-Meanwhile the GT350R Cup 2 is DIFFERENT and is far more aggressive, dry grip focused, and not as good in the wet.

-If you're happy with the PSS on your 2015-18 GT350, you'll probably be happy with the 2019 GT350 Cup 2.


The 2019 GT350 also has the "swing" from the GT500, and a SIGNIFICANTLY improved ABS and Magneride calibration that makes for a better performing, handling, more responsive car with better ride quality and FAR better trail-braking ability. The 2019 GT350 is quite a bit faster than the 15-18 car, but not as fast as the GT350R.

The 2019 GT350R has the improved ABS calibration and is even faster on track than the 2015-18 GT350R because of it. You can brake later, trial-brake, and rotate the car, to drive it much faster on track. It's close to a second on most tracks.

The 2020 GT350R did not get a big suspension and aero change due to its touted balance, but it still has the updated ABS calibration from the 2019 cars. However, it did acquire the GT500's steering rack, front knuckle and geometry which GREATLY improves steering feel even further than what the Carbon Wheels and suspension setup has already been praised for. Rut-wandering and tram-lining is greatly reduced with the GT500 front geometry, and overall the 2020 GT350R is outright the fastest, best handling, best feeling, best balanced, and has the best steering of any GT350.

As I said before, you really can't go wrong with any generation of GT350. Pick what makes sense in terms of your budget, intended use, goals, and desires. Newer GT350s have been improved here and there, and are faster cars. But this should not make owners of the older cars feel bad. That's just a fact of life. But it shouldn't take away anything from how great the older GT350s are.

 

[Greg35]

This ^^^! Well written, clear,concise.
Should be of tremendous help to anyone-newbie OR a current GT350 owner-to better evaluate and therefore select best ride for them. Thanks again Billy!

 

[PP0001]

I don't think you can go wrong with any of the GT350s because they're all great and very special cars.

GT350R's are more rare, are faster, and hold their value a little better than regular GT350s (which already hold their value pretty well for a new car). The increased downforce, aggressive Cup 2 tires, and especially the under-rated carbon wheels (which make a HUGE difference) all add to the improved steering, handling, and performance of the R over a base GT350.

The 2015-18 GT350R is quite a bit faster than the 2015-18 GT350. This R also won Best Drivers Car along with many accolades, but the GT350 is still an amazing car.

-The 2019 GT350 has bespoke Cup 2 tires that are more in line with the bespoke PSS tires they replace in terms of wet grip, longevity, and overall 'streetability'.

-Meanwhile the GT350R Cup 2 is DIFFERENT and is far more aggressive, dry grip focused, and not as good in the wet.

-If you're happy with the PSS on your 2015-18 GT350, you'll probably be happy with the 2019 GT350 Cup 2.


The 2019 GT350 also has the "swing" from the GT500, and a SIGNIFICANTLY improved ABS and Magneride calibration that makes for a better performing, handling, more responsive car with better ride quality and FAR better trail-braking ability. The 2019 GT350 is quite a bit faster than the 15-18 car, but not as fast as the GT350R.

The 2019 GT350R has the improved ABS calibration and is even faster on track than the 2015-18 GT350R because of it. You can brake later, trial-brake, and rotate the car, to drive it much faster on track. It's close to a second on most tracks.

The 2020 GT350R did not get a big suspension and aero change due to its touted balance, but it still has the updated ABS calibration from the 2019 cars. However, it did acquire the GT500's steering rack, front knuckle and geometry which GREATLY improves steering feel even further than what the Carbon Wheels and suspension setup has already been praised for. Rut-wandering and tram-lining is greatly reduced with the GT500 front geometry, and overall the 2020 GT350R is outright the fastest, best handling, best feeling, best balanced, and has the best steering of any GT350.

As I said before, you really can't go wrong with any generation of GT350. Pick what makes sense in terms of your budget, intended use, goals, and desires. Newer GT350s have been improved here and there, and are faster cars. But this should not make owners of the older cars feel bad. That's just a fact of life. But it shouldn't take away anything from how great the older GT350s are.

Billy, really appreciate your detailed, comprehensive and in depth comments with respect to the various MY's for the GT350 and the GT350R.

Based on your confirmation that the 2020 GT350R was able to acquire the GT500's steering rack which substantially helps reduce tram-lining and rut-wandering along with your personal driving experience and analysis that the 2020 GT350R is the absolute best overall performing R model ever over the last 6 MY's I should be all over a new 2020 R model if I just wasn't getting so old and looking to retire very soon.

For you much younger guys if you want the best R ever based on comments and feedback from the most well qualified and experienced individual out there I would suggest that you need to take a serious look at a 2020 R.

In addition to your very positive comments surrounding the 2020 R model it is my understanding that the 2020 MY may be the very last production year for the GT350/R's as we know them and also understand that 2020 production numbers for both GT350/R models will be reduced substantially for this year therefore what a great opportunity to purchase not only the best R model to date but also one of the rarest R's built for any MY aside from the anomaly for the 2015 50th Anniversary cars.

Again all of us certainly appreciate and thank you for the time that you took in order to help us better understand, appreciate and learn more about each of these great Shelby GT350/R's !!

 

[FogcitySF]

Well there you go..."debate" over (not sure there should have been one to begin with ;)). Only makes sense that using the GT500 knuckle and steering parts only for the 2020R and not the 350 means that it will be an improvement, as confirmed by BillyJ. Anyone who has driven an R knows that the tram-lining is terrible and something you really have to pay attention to on public roads. That alone is a win in my view.

Also interesting how the ABS calibration can yield a 1 sec improvement on most tracks,--that's amazing. I already thought the ABS and trail braking ability were quite good on my '17 R.

 

[MikeR397]

Well there you go..."debate" over (not sure there should have been one to begin with ;)). Only makes sense that using the GT500 knuckle and steering parts only for the 2020R and not the 350 means that it will be an improvement, as confirmed by BillyJ. Anyone who has driven an R knows that the tram-lining is terrible and something you really have to pay attention to on public roads. That alone is a win in my view.

Also interesting how the ABS calibration can yield a 1 sec improvement on most tracks,--that's amazing. I already thought the ABS and trail braking ability were quite good on my '17 R.

Ya can’t say I’ve had any issues with abs and trail braking with stock pads and cup 2s on my 17R either .

I’ll get to drive a gt500 later this fall, not on track, but still looking forward to seeing the differences (of which there are a lot). I think my R will still be a faster/better and more fun (Manual) track car for the MI tracks I run.

 

[svttim]

Billy, really appreciate your detailed, comprehensive and in depth comments with respect to the various MY's for the GT350 and the GT350R.

Based on your confirmation that the 2020 GT350R was able to acquire the GT500's steering rack which substantially helps reduce tram-lining and rut-wandering along with your personal driving experience and analysis that the 2020 GT350R is the absolute best overall performing R model ever over the last 6 MY's I should be all over a new 2020 R model if I just wasn't getting so old and looking to retire very soon.

For you much younger guys if you want the best R ever based on comments and feedback from the most well qualified and experienced individual out there I would suggest that you need to take a serious look at a 2020 R.

In addition to your very positive comments surrounding the 2020 R model it is my understanding that the 2020 MY may be the very last production year for the GT350/R's as we know them and also understand that 2020 production numbers for both GT350/R models will be reduced substantially for this year therefore what a great opportunity to purchase not only the best R model to date but also one of the rarest R's built for any MY aside from the anomaly for the 2015 50th Anniversary cars.

Again all of us certainly appreciate and thank you for the time that you took in order to help us better understand, appreciate and learn more about each of these great Shelby GT350/R's !!

I dont think Billy is saying the 2020 R will be faster than the 19 but, Billy can speak to that. Again, I have no tramlining with my 19 R. I assume that is a function of the alignment.

 

[PP0001]

I dont think Billy is saying the 2020 R will be faster than the 19 but, Billy can speak to that. Again, I have no tramlining with my 19 R. I assume that is a function of the alignment.

From what I can see Billy did speak to that point as I just reread his second last paragraph for post #37 whereby he stated the following.

"and overall the 2020 GT350R is the outright fastest, best handling, best feeling, best balanced, and has the best steering of any GT350".

Maybe I have interpreted Billy's above statement the wrong way but it seems to me that he was very clear in stating that the 2020 R is the outright fastest of any GT350 to date including the 2019 R.

Obviously I can't speak to tramlining on your 2019 R but can tell you that I have had a 2016, 2017 and 2018 R model and based on my experience each of my R models varies significantly with respect to the tramlining issue.

 

[FLETCshooter]

From what I can see Billy did speak to that point as I just reread his second last paragraph for post #37 whereby he stated the following.

"and overall the 2020 GT350R is the outright fastest, best handling, best feeling, best balanced, and has the best steering of any GT350".

Maybe I have interpreted Billy's above statement the wrong way but it seems to me that he was very clear in stating that the 2020 R is the outright fastest of any GT350 to date including the 2019 R.

Obviously I can't speak to tramlining on your 2019 R but can tell you that I have had a 2016, 2017 and 2018 R model and based on my experience each of my R models varies significantly with respect to the tramlining issue.

LOL - on any given track day any car can be slower or faster. However, if a car manufacture can’t keep improving their cars then they are in for a real problem, so safe bet is it is at least newer

 

[svttim]

LOL - on any given track day any car can be slower or faster. However, if a car manufacture can’t keep improving their cars then they are in for a real problem, so safe bet is it is at least newer

Very true, Driver Driver Driver

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