Interesting article on 2015 materials and design

[15GTConv]

Convertible Platform Mods

I noticed in the Platform Conv. Mods slide that the Performance Pack Tower brace from the firewall to the towers has been added to the convertibles. At the Indy car show a few weeks ago, I noticed that a 5.0 Conv. also had a tower-to-tower (cross brace) brace also installed. (See picture) It appears to be factory installed. Anyone out there know if this is true? That the convertibles come standard with the cross brace?

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[cbrookre]

I noticed in the Platform Conv. Mods slide that the Performance Pack Tower brace from the firewall to the towers has been added to the convertibles. At the Indy car show a few weeks ago, I noticed that a 5.0 Conv. also had a tower-to-tower (cross brace) brace also installed. (See picture) It appears to be factory installed. Anyone out there know if this is true? That the convertibles come standard with the cross brace?

Or the 5.0 it is standard, not sure for the rest of the lineup

 

[limequat]

Meh, I don't see the Camaro being much lighter, but good on them if it is.
The current ATS 2 door 4 cyl, 6 speed is 3479 lbs. This compares to the EB manual, which is 3532 lbs. So, currently a 53 lb difference apples to apples.
I get the feeling that the new Camaro is going to be larger than the ATS though.

Well gents we might have some issues with the 6G Camaro. The S550 body in white weighs say 347kg or 765lbs. Not terribly Heavy, not that light either. I am looking at the body of 4dr ATS, it weighs 284kg or 626 lbs.

Granted the 2dr ATS is overall a hundred pounds heavier that 4dr at approximately 3570lbs. But I am not sure where the weight difference is between the 4dr and 2dr body in white ATS's. let's hope it's all in the body, and the base for the Camaro is only 40lbs Lighter in the body. And still heavier everywhere else.

Also no one including the big three use the English system of measurement, except in cursory fashion in big meetings with regards to weight. Everything is done in Metric.

EDIT on the plus side:

ATS
– I-4 and V-6 cylinder engines with manual or automatic
transmissions, rear and all wheel drive variants were
required
– GVM ranges from 1910 to 2125 kg
– V8 engines were not treated as part of the bandwidth
http://www.autosteel.org/~/media/Fi...eel Technologies in the 2013 Cadillac ATS.pdf

 

[1320']

The bowtie folks need to look at what the ATS-V is going to come out at in terms of weight..that'll give a better indication of what a 6th Gen LT1 Camaro is going to weigh.

They're taking the ATS coupe weight (3,570) and saying "Well the ATS is 3,570 lbs that must mean the LT1 Camaro is going to be only like 3,650lbs due to the heavier weight of the LT1"...ignoring the heavier suspension, brakes, rear end, CV half shafts, bracing, cooling..those add up with a quickness.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, 3,800lbs best (realistic) number for a manual LT1, 3,825 for an auto 1SS (cloth interior, etc).

 

[68fbjjz109]

Meh, I don't see the Camaro being much lighter, but good on them if it is.
The current ATS 2 door 4 cyl, 6 speed is 3479 lbs. This compares to the EB manual, which is 3532 lbs. So, currently a 53 lb difference apples to apples.
I get the feeling that the new Camaro is going to be larger than the ATS though.

We are talking about body structure. One of the key advantages the Mustang has enjoyed is a lighter one. When your foundation is strong and light as the ATS is. That really sets the tone for what you can do with the vehicle. You can spend a ton of money later to lightweight certain components. But you want to start with a good foundation.

GM has gotten alot of flak for the weight of the Camaro. It the largest reason the Coyote cars are able to best the Camaro. Sure the ATS is 3500+ lbs. The ATS I have information is a 2.0T that comes in about 320 lbs, but it also has 370+ lbs of AWD transmission/provisions. That really counts towards the Up scaling of RWD V8 suspension components.

I am not sure on what changes the Camaro will have, but the ATS also has luxury features which pork on some pounds.

What we do know is the there is a 200 lb difference between the current V6 Camaro and he V8. We also know the Corvette got heavier and much faster.

I could defiantly see 3600-3700 V8 Camaro. And if the 6gen is making 450 horsepower...

2025 is coming, the easiest way to get the internal combustion engine to get better mileage is lighten the cars.

EDIT:
Keep in mind the ATS wasn't meant for a V8 so changes will be made to it, so the Mustang having a dedicated platform is helpful.

 

[thePill]

Well gents we might have some issues with the 6G Camaro. The S550 body in white weighs say 347kg or 765lbs. Not terribly Heavy, not that light either. I am looking at the body of 4dr ATS, it weighs 284kg or 626 lbs.

Granted the 2dr ATS is overall a hundred pounds heavier that 4dr at approximately 3570lbs. But I am not sure where the weight difference is between the 4dr and 2dr body in white ATS's. let's hope it's all in the body, and the base for the Camaro is only 40lbs Lighter in the body. And still heavier everywhere else.

Also no one including the big three use the English system of measurement, except in cursory fashion in big meetings with regards to weight. Everything is done in Metric.

EDIT on the plus side:

ATS
– I-4 and V-6 cylinder engines with manual or automatic
transmissions, rear and all wheel drive variants were
required
– GVM ranges from 1910 to 2125 kg
– V8 engines were not treated as part of the bandwidth
http://www.autosteel.org/~/media/Fi...eel Technologies in the 2013 Cadillac ATS.pdf

WOW!!! The last line confirms my ATS Alpha suspicions, the entire platform is not V8 ready. If the Alpha Camaro wants to support a V8, it will need extensive reinforcement like the S550 has. This extra weight will be from front rail, torque box and hinge area, rockers, runners, firewall... Sh!t... pretty much everything. The Alpha is also not ready to support a convertible. This weight will come on like last Gen and, will come as an additional layer of sheet metal sandwiched between the existing structure. The last Camaro put on a few pounds just by engineering the convertible reinforcement into the structure in 2012. The Mustang is V8, HiPo (at least the A-Pillar back) and Vert ready. The Alpha is none of these which allows it to remain weight competitive in that particular segment. In fact, the wagons and coupes were not initially built into the platform. You can see this by the sub-frame connectors in the ATSV coupe structure.

I was told the ATS Alpha was made to support a 450lbs engine but only in its specific configuration. Once the depth, width and height of the power plant is altered, the rails lose their original capabilities. There will be a lot of differences between the ATS, Camaro and CTS...

From what I understand, the S197's BIW was a tad lighter than the S550's, maybe 50lbs or so. Once the supporting body structures are mounted, the S550 becomes lighter than the S197 equally dressed. Most likely due to exterior panel shrinkage and less glass. However, the S550 could be a tad lighter in rolling chassis even though the S550 has IRS.

The weight gain came from exhaust, brakes, some suspension components, new standard safety equipment and new standard luxury equipment.

The S550 is just a few bits of aluminum away from being lighter than the S197 in every area. I have no idea how much weight can be shed from some factory de-contenting. I do know the GT has some pretty decent standard equipment so, who knows.

Just dropping to a 4 speaker stereo system from a 6,9 and 12 will help on a large scale. I also have no idea on what extent sound deadening has been used... I can't say with any certainty how much was placed in the GT and how much a standard GT350 can lose just by reducing some of these things.

 

[thePill]

Yes they did say the GT350 was redesigned from A pillar forward.

What strikes me is it is clear the S197 was the basis for this. It's a more advanced design but definitely more evolved than they made it seem.

I also found this interesting: "Overall increase in vehicle size to improve proportions and competitiveness in the segment"

What kind of competitiveness are they talking about? It seems the competition now is to drop weight and reduce size.

Lots of good things to read here. Yes, to pretty much everything. This is just an evolved S197... There was a guy on here trying to drive this point across and no one wanted to listen. I would like to talk to that guy now, S550Boss? You there??? Sure, the rear rails are completely different, rockers, runners, tunnel, pans.. strut towers, greenhouse... Okay, a lot is different but, in many respects, it's an extreme evolution that uses materials (very little imo) and advanced techniques... Long overdue techniques for sure. The advantage the Mustang enjoys is, it's own dedicated platform.

Okay, I want to know what has changed from A-Pillar up... Did they use the Fusions S and Y braces to save weight? That would be two different cars IMO... and hard to do...

The Mustang did increase in size, although it's only in the track. This allows more seat room between the wheels in the rear as well as IRS. The Mustang did shrink in BIW Mass and most likely Mass overall.

... In other words brother man, the shoe sole got bigger but the shoe itself shrank. Lower CG, RC and, it's even more optimal than the S197's. You will notice the C7 and Mustang almost share a WB and Track. That's because they are built to an optimal WB and track. As in, it is optimally proportioned.

Longer WB cars have a harder time building to an optimal WB/Track ratio. This is because the real world can only handle a certain width of vehicle. Small cars have lots of freedom but, nowadays, offer little or no room. 107 is about as low as a 2 Door coupe should go today.

 

[Mystic_Cobra]

Thanks that makes more sense. Glad they took to heart some of the complaints about body flex, cowl shake, vibration, poor ride quality.

Poor ride quality? Are you joking? Have you ever driven anything older than an S197 Mustang? All of these factors are improved on each revision of the car.

Best pic of this I could find online:
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/foru...57619119-sn95-fox-body-floor-pan-sdc11217.jpg

 

[68fbjjz109]

I was told the ATS Alpha was made to support a 450lbs engine but only in its specific configuration. Once the depth, width and height of the power plant is altered, the rails lose their original capabilities. There will be a lot of differences between the ATS, Camaro and CTS...

The ATS is a very stout platform. Lots primary and supplemental structural elements in that platform. I don't foresee near the amount of changes you are implying to get a Pushrod V8 to fit where a DOHC V6 Twin turbo of comparable power that resides in the ATS-V.

They use alot of smart structural design aspects aswell. Cast Aluminum Shock towers, Sheet metal Scalloping, Sheet metal Castllation of panels and matting surfaces, Race tracked and flanged holes.

This being said, with the prevalence of bonding and the large structural members in the S550 as is. When a Mid Cycle Action comes up, I think we'll see more aluminum and other materials bonded to less integrated structure.
to cut more weight since Ford has invested so much in Aluminum body structure.

 

[1320']

The ATS is a very stout platform. Lots primary and supplemental structural elements in that platform. I don't foresee near the amount of changes you are implying to get a Pushrod V8 to fit where a DOHC V6 Twin turbo of comparable power that resides in the ATS-V.

They use alot of smart structural design aspects aswell. Cast Aluminum Shock towers, Sheet metal Scalloping, Sheet metal Castllation of panels and matting surfaces, Race tracked and flanged holes.

This being said, with the prevalence of bonding and the large structural members in the S550 as is. When a Mid Cycle Action comes up, I think we'll see more aluminum and other materials bonded to less integrated structure.
to cut more weight since Ford has invested so much in Aluminum body structure.

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the doors don't go to aluminum next. That'll cut a sold 25lbs off the car right there.

 

[phil1336]

Lots of good things to read here. Yes, to pretty much everything. This is just an evolved S197... There was a guy on here trying to drive this point across and no one wanted to listen. I would like to talk to that guy now, S550Boss? You there??? Sure, the rear rails are completely different, rockers, runners, tunnel, pans.. strut towers, greenhouse... Okay, a lot is different but, in many respects, it's an extreme evolution that uses materials (very little imo) and advanced techniques... Long overdue techniques for sure. The advantage the Mustang enjoys is, it's own dedicated platform.

Okay, I want to know what has changed from A-Pillar up... Did they use the Fusions S and Y braces to save weight? That would be two different cars IMO... and hard to do...

The Mustang did increase in size, although it's only in the track. This allows more seat room between the wheels in the rear as well as IRS. The Mustang did shrink in BIW Mass and most likely Mass overall.

... In other words brother man, the shoe sole got bigger but the shoe itself shrank. Lower CG, RC and, it's even more optimal than the S197's. You will notice the C7 and Mustang almost share a WB and Track. That's because they are built to an optimal WB and track. As in, it is optimally proportioned.

Longer WB cars have a harder time building to an optimal WB/Track ratio. This is because the real world can only handle a certain width of vehicle. Small cars have lots of freedom but, nowadays, offer little or no room. 107 is about as low as a 2 Door coupe should go today.

Other then those that can boast of being a Member of the MIT Alumni, all this technology jargon is a bit much for those of us that purchased a S550 Convertible as a "Daily Driver", you think? Can you spare a Caplet or two of Aleve?:frusty:

 

[68fbjjz109]

It's packing a twin-turbocharged 3.6-liter V6, routing 455 HP and 445 pound-feet of torque to the rear wheels through either an eight-speed automatic or – holy of holies – a six-speed manual equipped with Active Rev Match for the heel-toe-averse. Final curb weight still hasn't been released, but we're hearing something in the neighborhood of 3,700 pounds, partially thanks to a standard carbon fiber hood

3700 lbs is being regurgitated across the interwebs. I think that's is a solid guesstimate off what I know, and what people are talking about.

A 450hp LS powered, 3700 lb car is a problem for the 6gen Mustang.

 

[1320']

It's packing a twin-turbocharged 3.6-liter V6, routing 455 HP and 445 pound-feet of torque to the rear wheels through either an eight-speed automatic or – holy of holies – a six-speed manual equipped with Active Rev Match for the heel-toe-averse. Final curb weight still hasn't been released, but we're hearing something in the neighborhood of 3,700 pounds, partially thanks to a standard carbon fiber hood

3700 lbs is being regurgitated across the interwebs. I think that's is a solid guesstimate off what I know, and what people are talking about.

You can bet a Camaro will not have a "standard" CF hood.

 

[Ugly John]

Great find. For the curious that wants to know about the different materials and for the engineers that might understand what they are reading: http://www.autosteel.org/Research/AHSS Data Utilization.aspx

On the right side, Under "Steel Grades" heading are most of the steels listed...

Gah!!! All the engineering data is metric. My head hurts too bad already to convert to compare to the steels we use on aircraft.

 

[68fbjjz109]

You can bet a Camaro will not have a "standard" CF hood.

It's also a Cadillac. It likely has alot more content then the highest trim level Camaro. The hood is likely retain the 50/50 weight distribution.

The fact is, we know what the Mustang weighs. We know what the body in white weighs, granted it's only a couple pounds more than the SN197. It's still not light. There are Minivans with lighter body structure. But we know the S550 performs, and performs well, and the GT350 needed no additional reinforcement which is a good sign.

Assuming the Camaro will be heavier because it always has would be short sighted on our community since we have information on the many ATS offerings.

I am not sure what the Body structure for the Camaro will weigh but we do know that GM has 100 pounds to play with before they are equal in weight to the Mustang.

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