GT350 vs. Z/28

[Sabre]

Stuntman - do you know what channel carries these races and what time they are normal on? TIA.

CTSCC and PWC can be watched live on their respective web page's live race coverage. TV broadcasts are usually about a week after the race. Fox Sports 1 broadcasts the CTSCC and CBS Sports HD channel broadcasts the PWC.

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[Todd15Fastback]

CTSCC and PWC can be watched live on their respective web page's live race coverage. TV broadcasts are usually about a week after the race. Fox Sports 1 broadcasts the CTSCC and CBS Sports HD channel broadcasts the PWC.

Thank you:cheers:

 

[thePill]

The Boss 302 is allowed A TON of geometry changes in PWC. Almost EVERY suspension link is non-OEM and has changed geometry from factory. As per the rules:




You would absolutely lose it if the Z28 so clearly described changing nearly every suspension component out with non-OEM components with CHANGED GEOMETRY like the Boss 302 is in PWC.

You are so hypocritical in your Camaro-hating rants that you are blind to reality; and blind to the fact that the Boss is very similarly modified and departed from 'stock' for racing.

But I ask: WHO CARES? These are professional racecars with big aftermarket wings and professional drivers in a series that has a "Balance of Performance" to 'equalize' the field - whether that's catering to the bottom denominator of a car, team, or driver to make racing closer; that's what happens.

I don't care that any of these cars are not perfectly "As delivered" off the showroom floor. They likely wouldn't hold up to professional racing abuse if they were; which is why chassis' are stitch welded, reinforced, caged, and racing components go on them. Despite those changes, this is as close to showroom-stock professional racing as you can get. Quit nit-picking the pointless, skewing reality, lying and coming up with moronic reasons why brand X is better than brand Y. Whether you like GM, Kia, Porsche, or Ford. Watch the racing and root for your favorite team/car/driver. If everyone complains about racing and doesn't follow it; it will lose popularity and die altogether. It's already hurting and I for sure won't contribute to the death of motorsports. I'll be watching on Sunday (figuratively speaking, a lot of PWC and CTSCC races are on Saturdays) rooting for: :ford:

Replacing suspension components does not change the Boss 302's wheelbase. It is very possible with camber and the cambered axle that the track has changed. Replacing arms and links usually won't alter your wheelbase. It could very well alter your track though.

I'm not sure if you are aware or not BUT, Road Racing IS dying. Every season, every race, people watch less and care less. This was one of the reasons NASCAR decided to make Grand Am more OEM. It eventually changed.

Everything I posted from before has come painfully true. I don't knock the PWC Camaro much because I knew the extent of the Boss 302S. When a Boss 302 is unrestricted, it does fairly well.

This isn't nit-picking, this is an actual discovery that solidifies my gripe about the 5th Gens wheelbase and track ratio.

Was I lying about any of this? Now that it is out in the open? No, in fact it makes thePill's post from the last few weeks make a lot of sense.

You can tell when people start to "Get it"...

You can hear a Cricket fart on these forums once my "Lies" start to become "Fact".

So what, the Camaro uses a shortened wheelbase in PWC. I specifically pointed the need for this out over the last several years. Even more so once the next Gen platform came under discussion.

For sure, the Camaro needed a wheelbase reduction prior to the z28 for sure, that is in the PWC VTS. However, the z28 has had a track increase SO, it is possible that they skipped the Black Dog suspension and stayed stock. It doesn't appear that way per the rulebook but, as they say, it is TBA.

 

[02gtnh]

Yes, but you still have not shown that the Camaro has shortened there WB. Looking at the pic of the race cars, the rear wheels look to be just like stock. Nearly 2" would be a noticeable difference.

 

[thePill]

Yes, but you still have not shown that the Camaro has shortened there WB. Looking at the pic of the race cars, the rear wheels look to be just like stock. Nearly 2" would be a noticeable difference.

Holy shit man...

I provided the SCCA Pirelli World Challenge Vehicle Technical Sheets from 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. All say the Camaro used a 110.5 inch wheelbase. Sorry, that is that...

AND, since Chevy does have a Camaro Zeta Prototype with a 110.5 inch wheelbase, it makes sense that a Zeta Camaro can be altered BACK to that original setting.

Just like an S197 can be fitted with IRS, it was originally design with IRS in 2004.

You can literally SEE the rear wheel resting forward.

If those tires have a 35mm side wall, that alone is 1.5 inches, counting the tread it should be over 2 inches. You guys say I can't see geometry deformation on a picture that clearly shows it. Yet you guys can do precision measurement by eye on a picture that is not to scale. They come stock at what, nearly 29 inch diameter tires. These look like 26 inch diameter. About 3 extra inches of room to play with so no body work needed altered.

Also, right in the Camaro VTS.

Alternate Rear Shock Mount allowed subject to approval and must meet photo description on file.

Does anyone know what happens if you move the rear shock mount? Anyone wanna take a stab at this one?

You can't move it out, and you can't move it in. The assembly moves with the mount location forward or back. The links and arms don't stay put while the shock location is moved...


ANYONE THAT IS REALLY IN MOTORSPORT WOULD HAVE ALREADY KNOWN THE 5th GEN SUCKS. There is NO dispute. Again, just because YOU are unaware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[02gtnh]

That tech data doesn't answer as the #1 says general data and shows 110.5 WB. Where the #5 shows chassis data which shows WB, length, width, and height. I would tend to believe the #5 as it's more detailed, thus showing 112.3. Plus WB is center of wheel to center of wheel, so the width of the tire has no bearing what so ever on WB.


Then put black dogs race car in one pic and a stock car right below. If the WB is shorter we will see it.

 

[thePill]

That tech data doesn't answer as the #1 says general data and shows 110.5 WB. Where the #5 shows chassis data which shows WB, length, width, and height. I would tend to believe the #5 as it's more detailed, thus showing 112.3. Plus WB is center of wheel to center of wheel, so the width of the tire has no bearing what so ever on WB.


Then put black dogs race car in one pic and a stock car right below. If the WB is shorter we will see it.

That "Miscellaneous" section box is after each component breakdown. That box contains the APPROVED alternate replacement components and settings. That means that while a stock Camaro 112.3 inch wheelbase IS ALLOWED (in this Stock class, imagine that ;) ), the actual configuration in use is the 110.5 inch wheelbase.

If a stock 112.3 inch wheelbase was used, it would probably generate another Camaro VTS PDF with a completely different set of restriction and regulation.

Now, this doesn't automatically mean the Z/28.R will use this 110.5 either. As of right now, Black Dog is in a "Development Year" and will determine after this season IF a 112.3 or a 110.5 is going to be submitted.

Paul Brown did this with the Boss 302 in 2011, Black Dog with the ZL1 in 2012.

In the 2013 VTS, you can see the Camaro's wheelbase is colored RED. This means it was an approved SCCA modification. The following years the number turns black... meaning it is still in effect.




As I said, lets just NOT talk about PWC. Please, it just isn't worth talking about until the class discovers itself. An all out OEM battle would be cool but everyone needs to be able to play.

 

[thePill]

I will say this though, yet this is just logical speculation and I know you hate when I do that. The Z/28.R is permitted to use it's stock OEM 19's. The reason is obviously because it can't use the 15.5 CCB's on the old 18 right?

If that is true, then there is no way to reduce the wheelbase without altering the body. They either use a 112.3 now or the body will need altered to host a shortened WB.

Another thing is, if we don't see the 15.5's and 19 inch wheels next season and the old set up is used, they probably decided to go back down to a 110.5.

That is just my observation though.

We will have to wait until next season to see what they submitted.

 

[Sabre]

NASCAR bought Grand Am in 2012. (Edit: Deal was done in September 2008, Mustang's first major NASCAR rule enforcement came in 2010). Looks like it was sold completely in 2013. The IMSA merger happened at the end of 2013.

Ok, a TT6. The BMW might return and not use the 4.0 V8. I am not even sure BMW is returning next year.

I would nitpick too if thePill just wiped his ass with my LS7 argument. :lol:

Feel?

No, there are two things that happen in traffic that don't during a flying lap.

First, your braking systems are taxed far beyond just cornering. A flying lap only has you braking in your traditional braking zones where in real racing, you are braking far more often. You can't get this type of feedback without traffic. This ultimately test the entire braking system far better than a solo lap.

Second, real world cooling. See, since your so smart, you should know that aerodynamics and engine cooing are limited by traffic. You know all the wind tunnel testing? Well, all that goes to hell once you put another vehicle in front of you blocking your airflow. But of course you probably already knew that. Even the best designs fall victim to bad air in traffic.

Another advantage is endurance in general. A flying lap is pretty much automatic after a few laps. The track never changes... However, in traffic, you are forced to slow, stop, accel and run the track off the line in some cases. This cannot be simulated or guessed at nor would a solo lap help in this area. This is 2 and a half hours of harsh conditions... On top of the solo runs. More track time is always better. I have never heard of continuous R&D without some type of real world trial. Have you?

Oh yeah, the z28 skipped all of this...

You won't need to contact Ford, they probably already know this very basic information. I am sure they would feel better about it too. Could be the main reason they are scratching and clawing for a 2015, so they can get a GT350R in there legally. Don't build a race car without racing it... The Boss had a couple of races in the 2010 season at least. Let the GT350 do some laps... But of course, when it's Ford, the rules are suddenly the Bible and must be followed EXACTLY as they are written. The z28 on the other hand...

Chevy made the OEM car, then Prat engineered the Z/28.R in CTSC, then Black Dog moves to a Z/28.R in SCCA. Should have been Pratt's Z/28.R, the OEM version using near GS compliant equipment, Black Dog builds the SCCA car based on the factory offering. IMSA and SCCA are backwards, IMSA requires an OEM offering based on the race car before the race cars first race. The SCCA requires that the car be in production and the race cars are based on the OEM car. I think it was set up that way just to be different but, it is actually working out for car makers.

Yeah well I've read through this post a couple of times....read and re-read your wise and learned words.....thought it over and done a 180...you're probably right. They do need to get the GT 350R into racing right now.

Ford and Multimatic have such limited experience in racing, that they don't realize these things. Even if they did, they don't have the money, resources, or technical know how, to explore and resolve these issues without putting the car into direct competition to work through all these issues and build a car that can compete. Sure wish they would get a clue. Maybe in a few years, with more time and experience under their belts, they'll be able to build a car that they could introduce to the series "race ready". But sadly, that can't be said for Ford and Multimatic right now. It's really to bad that they just don't see it and will waste valuable time trying to engineer the car only with the limited experience, technical knowledge and resources that they have. They must race the car right NOW at all costs!!!

Too bad really...it's such a nice looking car. Now that I realize how wrong I've been all along, makes me wish I hadn't tied my wagon to Ford....and I had such high hopes! Well lesson learned. I won't be taken in by a pretty face and slick marketing so easily ever again. This has been quite the revelation!

And I owe it all to thePill!

 

[thePill]

Yeah well I've read through this post a couple of times....read and re-read your wise and learned words.....thought it over and done a 180...you're probably right. They do need to get the GT 350R into racing right now.

Ford and Multimatic have such limited experience in racing, that they don't realize these things. Even if they did, they don't have the money, resources, or technical know how, to explore and resolve these issues without putting the car into direct competition to work through all these issues and build a car that can compete. Sure wish they would get a clue. Maybe in a few years, with more time and experience under their belts, they'll be able to build a car that they could introduce to the series "race ready". But sadly, that can't be said for Ford and Multimatic right now. It's really to bad that they just don't see it and will waste valuable time trying to engineer the car only with the limited experience, technical knowledge and resources that they have. They must race the car right NOW at all costs!!!

Too bad really...it's such a nice looking car. Now that I realize how wrong I've been all along, makes me wish I hadn't tied my wagon to Ford....and I had such high hopes! Well lesson learned. I won't be taken in by a pretty face and slick marketing so easily ever again. This has been quite the revelation!

And I owe it all to thePill!

Nothing stopped Ford or Multimatic from doing the same for the Boss 302. Literally, I am anxious to see the GT350 developed the same way the Boss 302 was.

Ford and Multimatic developed the Boss 302 DURING the 2010 season. It had maybe a Top 3 finish once. It ran for a majority of the season and the OEM Boss wasn't available until Jan 2011. Imagine that, Ford used their resources in Racing to develop a series specific race car. Not hard to believe this is still the intention.

I think your upset that Ford does this with the Mustang and Chevy didn't with any Camaro. Even though they pretend they do and get plenty of pats on the back.

...all because of thePill's lying, off the wall, loose speculation he provides here for entertainment.

 

[thePill]

ATS-V's FIRST TEST!!!


WEIGHED 3760lbs!!!!


thePill was RIGHT!!!!!

Good luck boys!!!!

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2016-cadillac-ats-v-coupe-test-review

Edit: Motor Trends car was over 3800lbs but they didn't report the weight. :lol:

C&D's car had Recaro's ($2100), the lightweight Polished 18's and the Track Pack. The Track Package ($6200) includes lightweight suspension components to offset MRC. I also believe it uses some Carbon pieces too. The performance package adds lighter wheels, keeps the same brakes (I think caliper upgrade) and adds mostly light weighing, endurance or handling equipment.


I know I'm not smart and I tend to lie quite a bit BUT, how does Chevy intend on pulling a 200lbs weight reduction off on the SS? The ATS-V above was weighed at 3760lbs. even at 3700lbs flat, most of my figures had a 6th Gen above 3750lbs anyway.

I would feel blessed if they got one below 3800lbs BASE as it looks right now. There could be 40-70lbs of structural heft added just figuring in the size difference.

We are talking the weight loss potential of a $63,000 dollar car which adds light weight components and Recaro's to get that 3760lbs vs. a $36,505 dollar Camaro.

Something has got to give fella's... something has absolutely got to give...

 

[Erik427]

Interesting......

 

[02gtnh]

Doesn't the GT gain over 100lbs from base to fully loaded with pp? This looks to be a fully loaded ATS. Then what is the base weight?

 

[thePill]

Doesn't the GT gain over 100lbs from base to fully loaded with pp? This looks to be a fully loaded ATS. Then what is the base weight?

The GTPP takes on larger, heavier tires, 15 inch rotors and I think larger in the rear, NO weight loss, Coolers, larger rad, suspension and front section reinforcement.

The ATS-V's Track Package adds Carbon Fiber, aluminum suspension, aero, same brake size, same tire size but light weight wheels.

That 100lbs the GTPP gained was also Premium weight too with a 12 Speaker System. It was fully loaded.

A Base GTPP weighs between 3720-3750lbs.

A EU GTPP Premium's curb weight is 3639lbs w/ 90% fuel, and 9 Speaker system but at a $47,000 dollar MSRP (About $3000 more than our loaded GTPP Premium)

The Mustang has a decent weight loss program in store but will drive the US MSRP up to $35,000-$36,000 Base. We are not read y for that until the Camaro comes out at $36,500-$37,990.

Even then, we may not get all that weight savings... or more if the 15's, 275's or 9 Speaker system doesn't become standard. But I doubt that will be the case.

The PP is about 50-60lbs
The Premium is about 30-40lbs
The 9 Speaker System is like 10lbs (20lbs for the 12)
The crazy seats are probably 20lbs heavier than the standard seats, 25-30lbs heavier than Recaro's.





A 3760lbs ATS-V Track Pack Coupe is not looking good for even a Base Camaro. MRC might add 20lbs, the HALO Suspension absorbs some of that. The Camaro's rear rotors should be the same size as the ATS-V's at 13.3 but the Camaro's front rotors will be 13.79 (not 14.6). There is some weight to be saved in the brakes BUT, the wheel/tires in the Camaro may exceed that savings right away.

The drivetrains are close, the LT1 weighs 465lbs, the TT3.6 is suppose to be 485lbs. The TR6060 weighs around 165lbs in M10 form, and LT1 TR6060 would gain maybe 5-10lbs. The TR6070 is nearly 200lbs alone... It would need a TR3160/3165 or Getrag.

The structure is where we can't expect any weight loss. In fact, we can likely expect some significant weight gain to accommodate even the same wheelbase and track. I strongly believe the LT1 Manual Base Camaro has grown in track to at least 64fr/63rr inches. There is also a loose chance the wheelbase has slightly increased but this is just my assumption.

 

[Sabre]

Nothing stopped Ford or Multimatic from doing the same for the Boss 302. Literally, I am anxious to see the GT350 developed the same way the Boss 302 was.

Ford and Multimatic developed the Boss 302 DURING the 2010 season. It had maybe a Top 3 finish once. It ran for a majority of the season and the OEM Boss wasn't available until Jan 2011. Imagine that, Ford used their resources in Racing to develop a series specific race car. Not hard to believe this is still the intention.

I think your upset that Ford does this with the Mustang and Chevy didn't with any Camaro. Even though they pretend they do and get plenty of pats on the back.

...all because of thePill's lying, off the wall, loose speculation he provides here for entertainment.

Upset? Au Contraire!

In fact...it seems to me that you're the one upset...though I think your feelings are misplaced. As I've said before, if you're going to be angry, be angry with the racing series that let the Camaro slide so easily into competition. Start a petition or a letter writing campaign or something. Apparently Chevy knew how to "play" the system. Go after the folks who compromised their own rules and regulations to let the Camaro into competition.

In 2010 Multimatic had some limited success, but was PLAGUED by reliability issues with both cars for the entire season. Had they waited and done their testing and race engineering off track, they would have had a much more refined and competition ready car for the debut. It was not a good "image" debut for the car. They rebounded in the 2011 season after they had time to resolve many of the 2010 problems in "off season" testing.

The 2015 Gen6 GT 350 is a bit of a halo car for Ford. I sincerely doubt that Ford wants a repeat of the 2010 reliability issue for this car. They will wait until they and Multimatic are satisfied that they have the car as competition ready as it can be, before we ever see it on track.

So...upset? No...not in the least. I leave getting upset to important life issues. As much as I love cars, Mustangs and racing, they are nowhere near important enough to get upset over.

I would say, irritated.

Your constant Chevy/Camaro whining, coupled with your dubious and erroneous fact posting, are like the annoying and irritating drone of a mosquito....hovering just about the head and out of swatting distance.

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