GT350 vs. Z/28

[1320']

The most track capable Camaro ever...when you keep it supplied in $3,000 sets of tires.

And $18,000 engines

And $1,500 CC brake rotors

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[Todd15Fastback]

All good points, 1320'.

Here is that post for reference:

2015 Z28 two days at track..engine failure
As title says

Two days at the track..first time I pushed the car a little in a TT class revving to redline and the check lamp comes on..starts flashing
Code po300 and po306 come up for misfire.
Reset it....went out for a 5/10ths lap and the felt like crap...but no lamp or code.

Reset the ECM...unhooked the battery ..and parked the car for the day.

On the way home mil came up again ....it ain't a bad injector or bum coil..engine internal..ran some testing at my shop to confirm this...don't care to get into it further.


Btw my background is 15 years in road racing with a comp license, racing many different fast cars..I'm easy on the equipment...no money shifts here that broke the motor...

Moral of the story don't flash your ecm and void your motor warranty with the ls7

 

[thePill]

When they said the z28 was a "Track Day" car, they actually meant you get about one (01) track day.

Joking aside, that is unfortunate. Sounds like possibly a bad tune. Does detonation throw a misfire code? I am not an engine man nor an ECU guy. Lund has made us numb to any ECU adventures, he is right next door. Did the 3rd Coyote cam job in the country (RIP Ernie) and will likely do more.

I wish Ford offered a Warranty Buy Back just for those that intend on voiding it. A lovely MSRP cut would really get me thinking...

 

[200MPHCOBRA]

I wish Ford offered a Warranty Buy Back just for those that intend on voiding it. A lovely MSRP cut would really get me thinking...

What a great idea, I would have saved a lot of money the last 30 years, no vehicle I ever owned makes it out of warranty without getting something done to it, and I don't let anyone else work on my vehicles anyway.

 

[Sasuketr]

It has been revealed that the camaro ss will be getting the lt1 engine probably 450hp version! My guess is that GM will sup up the lt1 to around 500hp and put it in the new z28 or zl1! I dont know which one will get the zo7 supercharged engine! They also said 70% of the car is brand new design! If they really loose weight i m guessing a 3500 lb z28 with 500hp lt1 engine! Lets hope the 350r is lower in weight and better weight distribution!

 

[Trackaholic]

When they said the z28 was a "Track Day" car, they actually meant you get about one (01) track day.

Joking aside, that is unfortunate. Sounds like possibly a bad tune. Does detonation throw a misfire code? I am not an engine man nor an ECU guy. Lund has made us numb to any ECU adventures, he is right next door. Did the 3rd Coyote cam job in the country (RIP Ernie) and will likely do more.

I wish Ford offered a Warranty Buy Back just for those that intend on voiding it. A lovely MSRP cut would really get me thinking...

It wasn't tuned. He was just saying that people should not tune the LS7 because the warranty is important in that engine.

-T

 

[thePill]

It wasn't tuned. He was just saying that people should not tune the LS7 because the warranty is important in that engine.

-T

Oh, man... He will be alright then. I knew the LS7 had some minor issues, I don't think it is common but, it certainly is a roulette.

I feel bad for the guy. Unless the LS7 become holocaustic, and to save that guy some ribbing, thePill's just gonna let this one slide. It can happen, it will happen... to anyone, on any product at any time in spirited conditions.

Lets support this driver as much as we can. March is a very bad month to have a failure :(

He wasn't in a competing class (because z28) and I don't think it is his actual race car. It still sucks...

...we'll find out after I get the car back over to Chevrolet...I suspect valve train.

Yea the motors stock.

The cars was on redline 1050w oil

I can't really go into many more details...warranty is pending.

I ran the track the same way in my 2013 boss for almost 2 years and a GTR and had no problems.

Damn... Chevy needed to do extensive testing on the z28 like the ZL1. I am afraid most of the "testing" was just big numbers from a prepped car and showmanship. "We tested it for 24 hours"

Yeah, thats probably about it too... 24 hours and then they wrapped it up and shipped it out... Lap time it can do... Over and over it cannot...

 

[thePill]

The z28's win at Sebring again. IMSA tried to hand Chevy the title last year but they F'd it in the B. This year will be the Camaro and z28's Championship season.

I am happy Chevy did ZERO Research and Development in this program but are still readily available for pats on the back.

What a disgraceful, tasteless circus that class has become...

I am sure Porsche and BMW are screaming as we speak...

Lets check the z28.R's specs again as see if it had any additional restrictions...

The Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge features sports cars from manufacturers worldwide, straight from the showroom floor, racing side-by-side with only minor modifications. The two classes competing simultaneously on track are Grand Sport (GS) and Street Tuner (ST).

Grand Sport (GS) - As with all Continental Tire SportsCar Challenge cars, GS class cars start out as stock, production model cars that race with minor modifications only. The GS class contains the top performing cars and include the Aston Martin Vantage, BMW M3, Chevy Camaro GS.R, Ford Mustang Boss 302 R, Nissan 370Z, Porsche 911 and Subaru WRX-STI. The engines are tuned to produce between 350 and 405 horsepower and are cabable of speeds in excess of 160 mph.

LOL!!!!

That is great and all IMSA BUT, the z28.R is a 470hp set up only using a 15mm restrictor. The Boss 302.R is pretty much stock as well as the M3, both are 30-40mm restricted and down to about 350hp... Why does the z28 get away with the "Minor Mod" waiver and "Minimum HP" restriction?

Oh... because it sucks that bad?

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

This is what the class needs, this is a direct replacement for the Boss 302R and was spawned from the very beginning to class here and compete with other World Class Sports Coupes.

Class racing in Motorsport is exactly what fuels the R&D for these types of vehicles. I instantly knew the z28 would need help once I seen that they hadn't tested the car until a few days prior. That is bad news... Then the restrictions and modifications were used to further enhance the Camaro's chances. Like I said, the 5th Gen Camaro was an awful platform for competitive Motorsport and the LS3 wasn't enough to handle the other cars in its class. I understand the need to raise the bar and keep the product fresh. Don't skirt the rulebook because you can't meet them eye to eye.

Let the Camaro finally win a damn championship. It will be sweeter for the GT350 to come back right where it left off... smashin' the z28 way back in 1966.

The Mustang is a far better looking car than the Camaro in my honest opinion.

Edit: Rumor is, the Voodoo is Ford's answer to BMW's Flat Plane Crank V8 in ALMS. They expected it to arrive in the M4 (and possibly still could) as well as IMSA. Right now, it is a 485+ HP V8. Little else is known about the engine as of now. We could possibly expect it in a future M3/M4 if a V8 is needed. I doubt it is over 5 liters too...

Edit #2: Apparently, the "5.2" became a 5.2 because a FPC V8 over 5 liters is difficult to do. This was due to the extreme vibration it produced. They say that BMW was experimenting with a large displacement FPC V8 in ALMS and Ford somehow either acquired the exact displacement OR, took a stab at it not being over 5 liters. I'm wondering if the goal is the class maximum of 5.5 liters... BMW's engine entered ALMS sometime during the 2010 season. It is said that the engine is a P65 4.0-liter and carries over the S65 production engine bore... It is rumored that the stroke was carried over as well but, that may not be the case. They desire a nice square 92x92 which would be a 4.9 liter (92.0 x 75.2 stock), We could possibly assume that BMW did in fact reach 5.0 liters if this is all true, which pushed Ford to a 5.2. We could see the displacement shrink or grow depending on the needs on the GT350 in it's classes.

This is all pure rumor and speculation...

I think Chevy is working on an NA V8 for racing too...

 

[mustangletback]

The z28's win at Sebring again. IMSA tried to hand Chevy the title last year but they F'd it in the B. This year will be the Camaro and z28's Championship season.

I am happy Chevy did ZERO Research and Development in this program but are still readily available for pats on the back.

What a disgraceful, tasteless circus that class has become...

I am sure Porsche and BMW are screaming as we speak...

Lets check the z28.R's specs again as see if it had any additional restrictions...

LOL!!!!

That is great and all IMSA BUT, the z28.R is a 470hp set up only using a 15mm restrictor. The Boss 302.R is pretty much stock as well as the M3, both are 30-40mm restricted and down to about 350hp... Why does the z28 get away with the "Minor Mod" waiver and "Minimum HP" restriction?

Oh... because it sucks that bad?

as we know,thats the only way for Garbage Motors to win.:cheers::lol:

 

[thePill]

Can anyone confirm if BMW is still working on a FPC V8? Or ever was for that matter... Started in 2009-2010 in ALMS GT2.

Please see Edit #2 above.

 

[Fox5.0]

No. Last I heard BMW scrapped the idea. Plus it wouldn't make sense to be switching their whole line up to smaller motors with FI, and then throw a new FPC V8 in them. Maybe just for the series but I don't see it coming anytime soon to actual production cars.

 

[thePill]

No. Last I heard BMW scrapped the idea. Plus it wouldn't make sense to be switching their whole line up to smaller motors with FI, and then throw a new FPC V8 in them. Maybe just for the series but I don't see it coming anytime soon to actual production cars.

Perhaps the Voodoo was the answer to that and Ford decided to use it anyway. I mean 100hp per liter is 100hp per liter. Hard to scrap the idea if it works and has been tested since 2011-ish.

Nobody knows if BMW really had a FPC V8 in the works to begin with. Come to think of it, nobody knew about the Voodoo really either. Motorsport Programs are guarded far more heavier than OEM stuff.

If anything, I look for Ford to move the Voodoo back to a square bore/stroke if given the chance. Not sure if it would be back to a 93/93, push the engine out to the limit at a 95.7/95.7 or go down to a 4.4/4.5 liter. A 4.4 liter would be a fine engine for a Mustang GT. A 4.4 FPC w/ DI? 440hp, 350tq...

I know one thing, if I was going to hold the Mustang to a true road racing standard, the FPC V8 was the greatest decision Ford ever made. It will be very successful in this particular area... It is the proper tool for this job. I imagine with PTWA, the bore is very scalable.

I have a video of Ford's actual process, the machine and the spinning whatever you call it. The video was removed from the internet and I believe it is protected. If I can dig it up and get permission, I will post it. I will search the internet to see if I can find it. The process it awesome... They coat Steel to Aluminum... You need to stop and understand how incredible that is. The would typically eat each other to nothing BU, this PTWA process burns so hot at such a velocity that it eliminates the electrolytes that causes the corrosion process. The steel and aluminum never rust/corrode... Ford permitted Nissan to use the tech for the GTR and Ford got some stuff from them I am sure. Here is a short video, I will search for the other and maybe talk about this crazy GT500 coming up.

[ame]

Ford's device hones in a spinning something, it looks like a Jumping Jack Firework I played with as a kid. Up and down and around in each bore.

INVENTOR of the YEAR for PTWA

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/03/ford-gets-inventor-of-the-year-award-for-engine-block-coating-sy/

Edit: Sorry guys, the video is gone. I cannot repost it :(


http://jalopnik.com/5467038/the-ford-engine-technology-good-enough-for-the-nissan-gt-r

 

[Stuntman]

IIRC, the FPC P65 used in the 2009 ALMS M3 GT2 cars had the same 92x75.2mm bore x stroke as the M3's 3,999cc S65B40 street engine. The P65 was later bumped up to 4,361cc with an 82mm stroke to match the S65B44 street engine used in the homologation-special M3 GTS (125 built) and E90 CRT cars.

This 4.4L FPC engine was used in the Z4 GT3 car as well as the ALMS GT2/GTE Z4s despite the fact that no Z4 production car is equipped with a V8. BMW is pretty good at politics and also got away with using a V8 in the E46 M3 GTR for a while before they were banned from using it.

 

[thePill]

IIRC, the FPC P65 used in the 2009 ALMS M3 GT2 cars had the same 92x75.2mm bore x stroke as the M3's 3,999cc S65B40 street engine. The P65 was later bumped up to 4,361cc with an 82mm stroke to match the S65B44 street engine used in the homologation-special M3 GTS (125 built) and E90 CRT cars.

This 4.4L FPC engine was used in the Z4 GT3 car as well as the ALMS GT2/GTE Z4s despite the fact that no Z4 production car is equipped with a V8. BMW is pretty good at politics and also got away with using a V8 in the E46 M3 GTR for a while before they were banned from using it.

So the desire was there as was the engine but no homologation was met on production.

I don't remember who brought it up but, I had heard the Voodoo was originally a smaller displacement. If PTWA is used, anything is possible. I doubt Ford want's to push a 5.5 liter FPC V8 just for a record.

[ame]

 

[thePill]

The Voodoo uses a 94x92.7 Bore and Stroke, slightly oversquare. If in fact these measurements are true, the 5.2 Voodoo isn't really a 5.2 at all... It is a 5.1.

Regardless, the z28 isn't car enough to handle this things potential Power to Weight ratio. There had to be a competitive and marketable reason for a FPC V8 attempt, one over 5 liters at that. Motorsport and BMW would be the only reason an engine like this exist...

If you don't see a BMW FPC, Ford will likely lower the Bore back down to the Coyote's 92.7mm. This reduction in both mass and weight will see a 5.0 Liter Voodoo touching 9000RPM and would have a slightly faster rev than a 5.2.

I have a feeling if Motorsport organizations start restricting these Voodoo engines, Ford will opt to decrease the bore, limit the max output and save tons of engines from failures from over restriction (like the Boss). With PTWA in use, 5.2 can get heads turning while a more competitive (maybe DI) 5.0 Voodoo is the answer for over restriction.

Don't expect the Flat Plane Crank V8 to go anywhere. Now that Ford has a very good offering for a very good price, it will plague Road Racing...

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