GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

I feel these arguments are petty and a waste of time... I usually don't get very far into them.

People come in here to read and have fun. A LOT of people come in here to read and have fun...

It sounds like a handful of you are not enjoying my wild speculation, especially if it gets too close for comfort. Now, people want to split theoretical hairs with little or no experience or education in these areas. I am grateful for the interaction but don't feel any of your initial arguments held water... I'm not ignoring you, just trying to get this moving along.


The original question was, is there any weight in the GT's that isn't accounted for that could possibly be "discovered" when Ford goes "Official" with the GT350?

I say Yes, there is. Not much but, considering the 135lbs claim, 20-40lbs of that could be a dirty trick. I am hoping that it isn't.

This is the issue with the media reporting an 82lbs gain when in reality, the gap is much closer. We can at least for a fact say that there was an instance where a 2011 and 2015 were only 30lbs apart. That is a significant chunk if you ask me. Will there be instances where that gap is closer or, god forbid, they actually swap lighter/heavier? Yeah, there is a very good chance, especially with the initial spread we have witnessed.

But it was something I myself witnessed. Obviously, any statement I make as well as my very person needs to be discredited. Because it supports my original findings and makes it seem like I am telling the truth. Discredit the Mustang Specialty Shops in my area too, truly incompetent fools if you ask me... and tampering with the "Official" scales to make it seem like the S550 is lighter than it actually is.



I think you guys have had enough, when your arguments become this petty, you become too unique to argue with. I try to avoid arguments completely, especially from a wave of nit-picking stupidity... or the stupid in general... which only want to drag you down and beat you with their vast experience.

Cages have A-pillar tubes that connect to the B-pillar hoop, door intrusion bars, bars that connect the L to R side under the dash and at the top of the windshield. You continue to be ambiguous with your posts and flip flop on everything you say.

Door bars are very heavy as is all of the work forward of the B-pillar on a "cage". You keep saying "cage" which has a fairly central mass while you talk in a context referring to a "roll bar" which is indeed entirely behind the driver. You have always been very difficult person to communicate with due to your vagueness and inconsistencies.

A Cage doesn't need a roof to be a cage. Loop, doors, loop triangulation and rear towers... That is an 8 point roll cage. You could have a 6 point cage if you remove the triangulation and just use a cross bar for the harness.

This is why I don't discuss these things here...

This is a basic 8 point roll cage bud...

A Chrome Moly of this very example weighed almost 60lbs. It would be around 100lbs in .120 if I remember correctly.

Why is door tube so much heavier? It should only be .118 if that... Most remain .120.

I know what you are talking about with the roof loop, that is far heavier than what I am discussing here. That is truly a full-tilt cage similar to what the Camaro's used at the Ring. If we use OEM frames, we are required to connect the Roll bar portion of the Roll cage to the frame. This is our loop, triangulation and rear tower braces. Nothing more is required.

A 6 Point Roll Bar would be the absence of the door tubes. A 4 point would be the triangulation removed and only the loop, cross bar and rear tower braces remain. I guess you could argue either way but we were taught that any enclosure around the driver was a cage.

Here is a nice depiction of where the weight is when using a complex roll bar. That is pretty much the entire unit and at least 70lbs.

Sponsored

 

[thePill]

Here was some very good speculation that we were previously discussing.

Guys i wish not but there is a huge chance the loaded or a base gt350 might weight as much as or even higher than a regular gt! It seems for the R package they are following what GM did to z28 and removing creature comforts and adding carbon fiber. The car is still going to be tail happy. They can move the battery and some stuff in the back to compensate the weight distribution! My estimate 3505lb gt350 r and no less than that!

...and...

I think that is a good estimate. If the Base GT350 is sub-3700lbs, I would be impressed.

I think that only leaves the GT350R at 3565-ish.

The Track Package could be another 50-80lbs too. They said 135lbs lighter than the Track Package GT350 right?

It is possible the GT350 ends up being the light one in the 3650-ish range. The GT350TP would be about equal to the GTPP in the 3720-3750lbs range. That would make a sub-3600lbs GT350R more difficult.

However, if the Power to Weight Ratio is true (6.63), how much would the 5.2 need to produce?

At exactly 3600lbs, it would need to produce about 543hp. I was thinking 520hp would be outstanding. 530+ seems out of reach in my opinion...




Anyway, here is some pretty nice pics of the Killer Bee posted by TN elsewhere. Being in Pittsburgh, I love the Black and Gold...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chorwedel/

The Power to Weight info needs to be accurate in order for this to work out.

At 520HP (100HP per Liter) a GT350R would need to weigh 3450lbs to match the 911 GT3's 6.63.

A 3450lbs Mustang this generation would be fantastic!

 

[thePill]

The Challenger SRT Hellcat will have an eight speed automatic transmission or a six-speed manual. It will be competing against cars like General Motors (GM)' Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 with its 580 horsepower V8 and the 662 horsepower Ford (F) Shelby GT500 which recently went out of production. A Ford spokesman wouldn't comment on its competitors car, but a new Shelby GT500 with, potentially, more power is expected to be revealed some time soon.
A General Motors spokesman indicated that that automaker has no plans to try to approach the Hellcat's horsepower output, at least in a Camaro. GM has already unveiled a version of the Corvette two-seat sports car, the Z06, with a 650 horsepower engine.

Uh Oh!!!! The 500 has cometh!!!!


...and apparently the z28 and ZL1 will be mated... and out powered... :(.

What about an 808HP Twin Turbo Coyote? Very doable since the 3.5 is over 600.

You don't what any... The Challenger is definitely going to live up to its name. The z28? It will be mixed with the ZL1 and go the way of the Z06.

Nurburgring being the major marketing angle most likely... heating and stopwatch issues being even more likely...

I still like some of these...

 

[Rated R]

I had some initial interest in the Hellcat. I had a '12 SRT8 Challenger for 3k miles and dumped it. Just too heavy, didn't handle that great. Just freaking really BIG. My B302 is a way better car. The Hellcat is just throwing more power at a pig. i wish Mopar would build a proper 'Cuda but they're hamstrung with that old LX chassis for some reason. Can't wait to get my GT350.

 

[02gtnh]

I think that is a good estimate. If the Base GT350 is sub-3700lbs, I would be impressed.

I think that only leaves the GT350R at 3565-ish.

The Track Package could be another 50-80lbs too. They said 135lbs lighter than the Track Package GT350 right?

It is possible the GT350 ends up being the light one in the 3650-ish range. The GT350TP would be about equal to the GTPP in the 3720-3750lbs range. That would make a sub-3600lbs GT350R more difficult.

However, if the Power to Weight Ratio is true (6.63), how much would the 5.2 need to produce?

At exactly 3600lbs, it would need to produce about 543hp. I was thinking 520hp would be outstanding. 530+ seems out of reach in my opinion...




Anyway, here is some pretty nice pics of the Killer Bee posted by TN elsewhere. Being in Pittsburgh, I love the Black and Gold...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/chorwedel/



I never said Fact, I looked at a picture and made an estimate to debunk the 200-300lbs weight gain claim by a trusted "Insider". Besides, I was correct the structure was smaller and it was only 2.2lbs heavier in BIW. The whole structure and support panels more than likely got lighter. As I said then, if the Mustang does gain any weight, it will be in content. Trust me, once I seen the standard equipment list I changed my mind real quick. I never expected the S197's Brembo/Boss and Premium packages would have become mostly standard.

I think a good majority of my claims actually held water. Maybe not on the S550 because it was a big secret... I think most other areas I touch on are at least honest to the best of my knowledge or, has some sound reasoning behind it.

I called attention to the z28 not being able to beat the ZL1 for the entire 2 week session. Called the top speed...

Got the ZL1's weight almost exactly correct.

Reported the 7:30-7:40 GT500 Ring run.

Helped guide the S550 Renders.

Was bragging about a 600+ GT500 way back in 2010.

Predicted the sales drop on the 5th Gen at year 3.

Predicted the '14 refresh...

Had a full 2013 Z/28 Concept for C5 in 2011...

I have been as helpful as any random internet guy in my opinion.

If people didn't like what I have been writing, why does the View counter keep going up? Seems like some people are interested and more than likely get my point.


I had passion for the Camaro at one time...

I am glad they are at least trying to listen to me

Needs more grill area ya' dumb asses!!!!

These words don't look like your making a estimate.

 

[Stuntman]

A Cage doesn't need a roof to be a cage. Loop, doors, loop triangulation and rear towers... That is an 8 point roll cage. You could have a 6 point cage if you remove the triangulation and just use a cross bar for the harness.

This is why I don't discuss these things here...

Actually it does need a roof. Every sanctioning body which requires a 'cage', especially for wheel to wheel competition requires a true "cage" with a roof, not your definition of 'cage' which is in fact a "roll bar". With all of your claimed experience in racing, you should know this. Statements like these (as well as comments like tire pressure affecting weight distribution) prove that you are embellishing your real world experience and don't quite understand what you are talking about.

You constantly demonstrate that you are unfamiliar with any rulebook from club racing, IMSA, PWC, etc... and constantly make incorrect claims and statements for each series. You should know that a roll bar will not fly in wheel to wheel racing, which you claim that you are going to do with the car, hence your PAGES of comments talking down to others by saying how stupid they are for wanting luxurious features in their daily drivers/weekend toys when you pretend that you are going to race yours.

This is a basic 8 point roll cage bud...

Are you really so lazy to post the first picture that comes up on a google search for "8-point roll cage" (which happens to be a roll bar) without even clicking on the image to read about it? Or is it because at first glance it serves your narrow focus, so you run with it and use it as supporting evidence, which is what you do in every argument on every topic that you debate about).

*If you clicked on the image of the "Competition Engineering 8-point rollBAR", it would take you to this page:

http://www.americanmuscle.com/sw-8p...=&AMID=sw-8point-rollbar-0509-FPReplacementV1

Which states: "this Mustang roll bar meets both NHRA and IHRA requirements for track use." -probably not approved for wheel to wheel road racing.

I know what you are talking about with the roof loop, that is far heavier than what I am discussing here. That is truly a full-tilt cage similar to what the Camaro's used at the Ring. If we use OEM frames, we are required to connect the Roll bar portion of the Roll cage to the frame. This is our loop, triangulation and rear tower braces. Nothing more is required.

I really don't like beating a dead horse but a CAGE has A-pillar bars, bars that run from the left side to the right side of the top of the windshield (typically another that runs under the dash), goes from the A-pillar to the B-Pillar, with substantial door intrusion bars (NASCAR style or FIA-spec "X"-bars). All of this is weight that results in a CAGE having a fairly central mass when compared to all of the pictures of roll BARS that you are posting.

A 6 Point Roll Bar would be the absence of the door tubes. A 4 point would be the triangulation removed and only the loop, cross bar and rear tower braces remain.

Your "8-point roll cage" is ACTUALLY a 6 point roll BAR with "down-bars"/"door-bars". Or if you want to argue semantics, it's a 8-point 'roll bar' with down/door bars. It's not a cage.

I guess you could argue either way but we were taught that any enclosure around the driver was a cage.

Here is a nice depiction of where the weight is when using a complex roll bar. That is pretty much the entire unit and at least 70lbs.

Does "We" in this sentence mean "students of WyoTech"? Is there documented source that calls a roll bar with door bars a "cage" or was that a misinterpretation or false verbal statement by a professor?

No one in the industry calls a roll bar with down bars a "cage". I'm not up to date with all of the rules of club racing, but i've never heard of or seen cars compete at anything other than maybe time trials without a proper "cage" (by the definition that everyone accepts, not your definition).


Just google "roll cage" and all credible manufacturers follow the same understanding of a "roll cage" vs. a "roll bar":

Not a great/credible source, but it explains the difference between roll bars & cages well:
http://bangshift.com/general-news/tech-stories/roll-cage-roll-bar-vs-roll-cage-show-whats/

MUSTANG:​

-Maximum Motorsports Roll Bars (There's a cage at the bottom, called a "cage"):

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/1994-04-Hardtop-C276.aspx

Street/Strip: 6-pt roll bar, standard door bars, removable harness mount:

Autopower Road Race Roll Cage, 1994-04 Hardtop:

-More Maximum Motorsports Roll Bars:

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Mustang-Roll-Bars-2005-2014-Hardtop-C414.aspx

Street Strip 6-point Mustang Roll Bar, E-Z-Remove door bars, no harness mount, 2005-2014 hardtop:

VIPER​

http://www.viperpartsrack.com/rollcage-6-point

-SCCA approved CAGE:

http://www.btrviper.com/rollbar.html

-BTR Viper roll bar:

MIATA:​

http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=5651&parentid=0&stocknumber=20-65000

-M3 Hard Dog Petty bar upgrade:

http://www.bethania-garage.com/door_bar.htm

-Miata Bolt-In Door Bars in conjunction with any version Hard Dog Roll Bar:

http://www.gomiata.com/rocakit19.html

-Miata Roll Cage Kit 90-97

The industry has the same understanding of roll "bar" vs "cage". You seem to be the only one who says outherwise (probably solely out of saving face). You say other's have issues with admitting they are wrong, yet you are the worst of them all and will fight tooth and nail and use any small shred of evidence or heresay, even those that are out of context, that support or agree with what you say.

You are not a credible source and you continue to talk "at" and "down" to people in a narcissistic way pretending to be an expert in engineering, motorsports, or any other topic and you continue to spew out mis-information. Your constant use of "we" and "our" (without defining who you are talking about) is about as weird as referring to yourself in the third person. I'm sure you'll have a novel to respond to this and frankly pointing out your misinformation is as time consuming as your posts are to begin with and it's not worth the time.

For others reading this, DO NOT take any of ThePills comments as sound advice. Take it with a grain of salt and view it for entertainment purposes only. He's not the expert that he claims to be and he has given a lot of bad advice.​

FWIW, IMO if you plan on tracking your car occasionally or drive the car aggressively, I'd go with the PP for the larger brakes, Torsen Diff, and larger radiator (and apparently an oil cooler which the std car does not have -something I learned here). While slightly heavier, it is a great bang for the buck if the car isn't a A-B form of transportation for you (ie: you drive the car) and you can always go to a lighter 2-pc 15" rotor to help reduce some weight. The added pad volume of the 6 piston caliper and larger heat sink of the 15" rotor are huge benefits.

/tangent.

 

[200MPHCOBRA]

Mods, could you please end this bickering. Its getting childish.

 

[02gtnh]

Mods, could you please end this bickering. Its getting childish.

Nobody's forcing you to read it. Points are being made.

 

[Taneras]

Nobody's forcing you to read it. Point are being made.

I agree, while there is attitude involved I am learning quite a few things. I don't think its gotten out of hand or anything, just adults having an adult conversation. We are human, I don't mind a little emotion thrown in.

 

[200MPHCOBRA]

Sorry children, I don't just go away. You are arguing semantics. Pill brings insider information into this place, you guys don't. You try to argue inane points that don't mean squat. Your trying to play some kind of gotcha over nothing. People are here to learn about the GT350. Fact is, nobody knows what every car weighs, nobody owns the name and rights to define a roll cage from a roll bar, and if you ever carried a sofa up stairs you know that changing the angle of the support through the CG of an object affects the supports. So, do you know any insider scoop or something relevant to the GT350? If not, you get out.

 

[Taneras]

Sorry children...

Didn't you just ask the mods to end "childish" behavior?

So, do you know any insider scoop or something relevant to the GT350? If not, you get out.

If that's the standard, after you

Pill brings insider information into this place, you guys don't.

Ah, now your behavior and motives have become clear. Don't get mad that people are calling The Pill out, its childish to try and limit speech you don't agree with.

 

[02gtnh]

Sorry children, I don't just go away. You are arguing semantics. Pill brings insider information into this place, you guys don't. You try to argue inane points that don't mean squat. Your trying to play some kind of gotcha over nothing. People are here to learn about the GT350. Fact is, nobody knows what every car weighs, nobody owns the name and rights to define a roll cage from a roll bar, and if you ever carried a sofa up stairs you know that changing the angle of the support through the CG of an object affects the supports. So, do you know any insider scoop or something relevant to the GT350? If not, you get out.

Are you thepill using another name??

 

[Brent302]

Lol this place has gone way down hill. Yall should buy a car that makes you happy and quit being keyboard warriors. 4200 miles and still smiling and not worried about magazine stats or what's next. Worst then a bunch of girls bickering about purses.

 

[Taneras]

quit being keyboard warriors... Worst then a bunch of girls bickering about purses.

LOL some people just can't stop themselves can they?

 

[thePill]

Actually it does need a roof. Every sanctioning body which requires a 'cage', especially for wheel to wheel competition requires a true "cage" with a roof, not your definition of 'cage' which is in fact a "roll bar". With all of your claimed experience in racing, you should know this. Statements like these (as well as comments like tire pressure affecting weight distribution) prove that you are embellishing your real world experience and don't quite understand what you are talking about.

You constantly demonstrate that you are unfamiliar with any rulebook from club racing, IMSA, PWC, etc... and constantly make incorrect claims and statements for each series. You should know that a roll bar will not fly in wheel to wheel racing, which you claim that you are going to do with the car, hence your PAGES of comments talking down to others by saying how stupid they are for wanting luxurious features in their daily drivers/weekend toys when you pretend that you are going to race yours.


Are you really so lazy to post the first picture that comes up on a google search for "8-point roll cage" (which happens to be a roll bar) without even clicking on the image to read about it? Or is it because at first glance it serves your narrow focus, so you run with it and use it as supporting evidence, which is what you do in every argument on every topic that you debate about).

*If you clicked on the image of the "Competition Engineering 8-point rollBAR", it would take you to this page:

http://www.americanmuscle.com/sw-8p...=&AMID=sw-8point-rollbar-0509-FPReplacementV1

Which states: "this Mustang roll bar meets both NHRA and IHRA requirements for track use." -probably not approved for wheel to wheel road racing.


I really don't like beating a dead horse but a CAGE has A-pillar bars, bars that run from the left side to the right side of the top of the windshield (typically another that runs under the dash), goes from the A-pillar to the B-Pillar, with substantial door intrusion bars (NASCAR style or FIA-spec "X"-bars). All of this is weight that results in a CAGE having a fairly central mass when compared to all of the pictures of roll BARS that you are posting.


Your "8-point roll cage" is ACTUALLY a 6 point roll BAR with "down-bars"/"door-bars". Or if you want to argue semantics, it's a 8-point 'roll bar' with down/door bars. It's not a cage.


Does "We" in this sentence mean "students of WyoTech"? Is there documented source that calls a roll bar with door bars a "cage" or was that a misinterpretation or false verbal statement by a professor?

No one in the industry calls a roll bar with down bars a "cage". I'm not up to date with all of the rules of club racing, but i've never heard of or seen cars compete at anything other than maybe time trials without a proper "cage" (by the definition that everyone accepts, not your definition).


Just google "roll cage" and all credible manufacturers follow the same understanding of a "roll cage" vs. a "roll bar":

Not a great/credible source, but it explains the difference between roll bars & cages well:
http://bangshift.com/general-news/tech-stories/roll-cage-roll-bar-vs-roll-cage-show-whats/

MUSTANG:​

-Maximum Motorsports Roll Bars (There's a cage at the bottom, called a "cage"):

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/1994-04-Hardtop-C276.aspx

Street/Strip: 6-pt roll bar, standard door bars, removable harness mount:

Autopower Road Race Roll Cage, 1994-04 Hardtop:

-More Maximum Motorsports Roll Bars:

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Mustang-Roll-Bars-2005-2014-Hardtop-C414.aspx

Street Strip 6-point Mustang Roll Bar, E-Z-Remove door bars, no harness mount, 2005-2014 hardtop:

VIPER​

http://www.viperpartsrack.com/rollcage-6-point

-SCCA approved CAGE:

http://www.btrviper.com/rollbar.html

-BTR Viper roll bar:

MIATA:​

http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=5651&parentid=0&stocknumber=20-65000

-M3 Hard Dog Petty bar upgrade:

http://www.bethania-garage.com/door_bar.htm

-Miata Bolt-In Door Bars in conjunction with any version Hard Dog Roll Bar:

http://www.gomiata.com/rocakit19.html

-Miata Roll Cage Kit 90-97

The industry has the same understanding of roll "bar" vs "cage". You seem to be the only one who says outherwise (probably solely out of saving face). You say other's have issues with admitting they are wrong, yet you are the worst of them all and will fight tooth and nail and use any small shred of evidence or heresay, even those that are out of context, that support or agree with what you say.

You are not a credible source and you continue to talk "at" and "down" to people in a narcissistic way pretending to be an expert in engineering, motorsports, or any other topic and you continue to spew out mis-information. Your constant use of "we" and "our" (without defining who you are talking about) is about as weird as referring to yourself in the third person. I'm sure you'll have a novel to respond to this and frankly pointing out your misinformation is as time consuming as your posts are to begin with and it's not worth the time.

For others reading this, DO NOT take any of ThePills comments as sound advice. Take it with a grain of salt and view it for entertainment purposes only. He's not the expert that he claims to be and he has given a lot of bad advice.​

FWIW, IMO if you plan on tracking your car occasionally or drive the car aggressively, I'd go with the PP for the larger brakes, Torsen Diff, and larger radiator (and apparently an oil cooler which the std car does not have -something I learned here). While slightly heavier, it is a great bang for the buck if the car isn't a A-B form of transportation for you (ie: you drive the car) and you can always go to a lighter 2-pc 15" rotor to help reduce some weight. The added pad volume of the 6 piston caliper and larger heat sink of the 15" rotor are huge benefits.

/tangent.

Except Jegs sells an 8 Point "Roll Cage" without roof loop. They have a good explaination why and I agree. I can see it both ways as it really isn't an issue. It's about 80-120lbs for an 8 point roll bar/cage and that is a full tank of gas.

For all my readers here... Just skip over the butt hurting and nit-picking.


Just stop... All this to distract you readers from the main issues.

1st: these guys HATE that the S197 and S550 are close in weight. Absolutely hate it... It boils there very blood that I was correct. Now it's a pout fest...

2nd: these guys only come over here when I call out the z28's short comings and cheating at the Ring. CHEVY cheated... Get over it.

This is an attempt to discredit the messenger because the message was accurate.

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