GT350 vs. Z/28

[Trackaholic]

Your Autoweek and MT links are combined into a single one. Also, that Autoweek article is almost a year old! Surprised I missed it. They must have tested a GT3 prior to the fire incidents and subsequent recall? In that particular article, the Z/28 seemed to do very well, BTW. Certainly wasn't vanquished. Especially given the price discrepancy.

As far as the GT350(R) in comparison to the GT3? Well a huge factor will be availability. It may actually be easier to get a GT3 than a GT350R. Will be interesting to see how pricing for the R works out. If the GT350 (non-R) can come anywhere close, it will be a great success for Ford, as the GT3 seems to be an extremely good car.

Also, 6 lbs per HP on the GT350R is pretty crazy and probably not accurate. First of all, the GT3 is 3150 lbs with 475 HP...so 6.6 lbs per HP. I estimated around 3550 lbs for the GT350R, so 3550/6.6 = 537 HP. My guess on the Voodoo HP was 535, so those number seem believable. Can Ford get the power/weight down to 6 flat? That would be over 590 HP (for a 3550 lbs GT350R), which seems like too much power.

So, I believe 6.6 lbs per HP, but not 6. With much less weight over the rear and an "archaic" (but much more exciting, IMO) stick shift, the Ford will be slower 0-60 and in the 1/4. Track times may suffer somewhat due to that as well. Should be an interesting comparison, that's for sure.

-T

Sponsored

 

[Grimace427]

http://autoweek.com/article/car-new...let_camaro_z28_vs_porsche_911_gt3_comparison/

Link doesn't work.


Edit: you mashed two separate links together.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests...let_camaro_z28_vs_porsche_911_gt3_comparison/

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/chevy-camaro-z28-vs-porsche-911-gt3-track-day-shootout

 

[9secondko]

The gt3 basically curbstomped the z28 by the numbers.

But they are different classes of car.

Good to see an American pony car compete in that class.

Though I expect the gt350r (the one actually meant to answer the z) will do better.

Saw the video a while back. Pro at seem to like chevy on the American side of things. But he seemed like he couldn't hold back his enthusiasm for the Porsche.

 

[traxiii]

Oh man this is gonna be fun!

 

[thePill]

The next hurdle for our horse is not from Physics or Geometry, it isn't the footprint or the shoes... it's the damn Doppelkupplung PDK transmission. I heard someone on here mention a "Performance" Automatic and rolled and lol'd on my very own floor. Yes, these automatic are good... beyond good, they are great. Not what we are looking for though. Well then... Why not just equip the GT3 with the Getrag, bring that MSRP down a bit and let them go at it... Well... I'm here to tell you that there is NO manual transmission available for the GT3 :(

For what we need the GT350 to do, a "Performance Automatic" is something we don't want to do... period... I would gladly take a Sequential Gearbox in place of the MT82 or TR3160 for sure. Still saving time on shifts, using a paddle-shift configuration without needing to say "automatic" during conversation concerning my vehicle. Regardless, the GT350R will be at a disadvantage in these magazine comparisons coveted by those damn benchers.

Throughout my never ending quest for a quicker time, I found that automatic transmissions are lacking. I have never been comfortable not having complete control of the vehicle. Through every turn, entry, mid-corner and on exit, I need complete control of the revs with little or no gimmicks... I find that this comfort zone is difficult to achieve while the car is performing automatically. Again, not mentioning that an automatic transmission meets class regulation with an abrupt end. All that aside, the PDK will be hard to handle, even with Randy driving.

Ba-Ba-Ba-Ba-Brakes!!!

Oh man, the GT3 is rolling on some heavy metal. I criticized the gargantuan 20 inch wheels the GT3 uses. Now that I see 16.1 inch disc on the front and 15.4 on the rear, it's understandable. All four of them bad boys done up as cross-drilled, carbon-ceramic disc. Oh boy...

Look at that outstanding profile on these new Mustang's!!!

Our GT350R comes standard with some pretty heavy hardware, 15.5/15 fr/rr. The R will have extreme difficulty classing for competition due to the Track Packages' Magnetic Ride Control. MRC comes standard on the 350R and, if the CCB's are an option, the GT350R won't be any less legal if deciding to go that way. I see this area as a good and bad... Bad because of magazine comparisons... Good because the GT350R's are more disposable, easily changeable and cheap...er... I for one would probably save my OEM wheels from the curbs, go down to an 18 in all four corners, rewrap them in some better rubber and find a more appropriate disc to go under my new wheels. All while saving me some weight... some much needed rotational mass removal is a diamond in the ruff stuff ;)

In other words, the Porsche has loads and loads of brake the Mustang doesn't.


(Cont...)

 

[thePill]

A shot in the dark by a site desperate for clicks? Or is it a closer guess than many want to believe???

Just as the Porsche offers the 911 GT3 and GT3 RS, the Mustang comes in equal flavors too. One of the offerings is the magazine HALO car, or, as I have come to know them, the HERO car. A car specifically engineered to be driven by some Internet HERO for a single lap, on a different day in different weather conditions... for a single lap... Did I say that already?

Not wanting to really give the z28 credit for anything, this new genre of automobile devoted strictly to hypothetical competitiveness sorta began with the z28. This classless competitor spawned enemies and, will likely be quickly overrun from here on out. Now, manufacturers are stacking statistics not only to win a race... but to decisively dominate their competition on paper... Well... On paper... the GT3 has a lot going for it.

First thing that comes to mind, other than what was discussed briefly above, it the 911's balance. It stands at a 40/60 and, is pretty balanced from left to right. We don't know what the GT350R sits at currently but it is safe to assume that 50/50 is always the goal in a front engine/rear drive sports coupe. Balance is something very difficult to compensate for, more tire, more tire, more tire right??? That's about it if you don't want to move equipment out back and eliminate AC.

The 911 GT3 RS goes beyond competition and becomes the HERO Porsche their fans have been waiting for. I personally never felt comfortable in a rear engine car but, the 911 in general is a great car.

America has lost it's iconic road racer once the Z06 became a shadow of it's former self. The C6 Z06 has forfeited it's title and it is out of the way. The GT350 moves up to take the place of America's Naturally Aspirated Street Fighter. It is a heavy burden in a highly disputed area of competitive engineering. Now that Ford and Dave P. are actively raising the flag, it says to me that the Mustang is ready to win...

...or die trying...

I think the GT350 will challenge the GT3, more than the 4000lbs z28 did for sure. It was determined fairly early on that the GT350 would dominate the older car, it is just the natural way of the automotive industry. The GT3 on the other hand... isn't no comic book cartoon figure, donning the utmost super-HERO car equipment just so children will buy the poster. That is the z28 and that is the z28's heritage... The Porsche has heritage and purpose. It will not come down easily, especially with the advantage stacked in the 911's favor.

But can it be done? At Laguna or VIR? Sebring, Willow or any of the countless tracks here in the US of A?

I am eager to hear others insight on this very topic. From what is being rumored and thrown out there, I think the GT350 has a lot of tricks up it's sleeves... it would have to in order for anyone at Ford to make such a specific comment about that particular competitor.

What do you think? What else could be a factor when these two meet up?

Edit: Just a correction on some GT3 stats, Porsche officially list the GT3 at 3152.6lbs (a little too precise don't cha' think?). 3152lbs @ 475hp is a PtW of 6.63. If what we are hearing is true, the z28 will be light years behind the GT350R. Basing what we know of the GT3 and it's Power to weight ratio, the z28 is at a 7.62 PtW. The GT350R could be "approximately" 6.63.

That's a lot more...

 

[traxiii]

A shot in the dark by a site desperate for clicks? Or is it a closer guess than many want to believe???

Just as the Porsche offers the 911 GT3 and GT3 RS, the Mustang comes in equal flavors too. One of the offerings is the magazine HALO car, or, as I have come to know them, the HERO car. A car specifically engineered to be driven by some Internet HERO for a single lap, on a different day in different weather conditions... for a single lap... Did I say that already?

Not wanting to really give the z28 credit for anything, this new genre of automobile devoted strictly to hypothetical competitiveness sorta began with the z28. This classless competitor spawned enemies and, will likely be quickly overrun from here on out. Now, manufacturers are stacking statistics not only to win a race... but to decisively dominate their competition on paper... Well... On paper... the GT3 has a lot going for it.

First thing that comes to mind, other than what was discussed briefly above, it the 911's balance. It stands at a 40/60 and, is pretty balanced from left to right. We don't know what the GT350R sits at currently but it is safe to assume that 50/50 is always the goal in a front engine/rear drive sports coupe. Balance is something very difficult to compensate for, more tire, more tire, more tire right??? That's about it if you don't want to move equipment out back and eliminate AC.

The 911 GT3 RS goes beyond competition and becomes the HERO Porsche their fans have been waiting for. I personally never felt comfortable in a rear engine car but, the 911 in general is a great car.

America has lost it's iconic road racer once the Z06 became a shadow of it's former self. The C6 Z06 has forfeited it's title and it is out of the way. The GT350 moves up to take the place of America's Naturally Aspirated Street Fighter. It is a heavy burden in a highly disputed area of competitive engineering. Now that Ford and Dave P. are actively raising the flag, it says to me that the Mustang is ready to win...

...or die trying...

I think the GT350 will challenge the GT3, more than the 4000lbs z28 did for sure. It was determined fairly early on that the GT350 would dominate the older car, it is just the natural way of the automotive industry. The GT3 on the other hand... isn't no comic book cartoon figure, donning the utmost super-HERO car equipment just so children will buy the poster. That is the z28 and that is the z28's heritage... The Porsche has heritage and purpose. It will not come down easily, especially with the advantage stacked in the 911's favor.

But can it be done? At Laguna or VIR? Sebring, Willow or any of the countless tracks here in the US of A?

I am eager to hear others insight on this very topic. From what is being rumored and thrown out there, I think the GT350 has a lot of tricks up it's sleeves... it would have to in order for anyone at Ford to make such a specific comment about that particular competitor.

What do you think? What else could be a factor when these two meet up?

Edit: Just a correction on some GT3 stats, Porsche officially list the GT3 at 3152.6lbs (a little too precise don't cha' think?). 3152lbs @ 475hp is a PtW of 6.63. If what we are hearing is true, the z28 will be light years behind the GT350R. Basing what we know of the GT3 and it's Power to weight ratio, the z28 is at a 7.62 PtW. The GT350R could be "approximately" 6.63.

That's a lot more...

It will be interesting to see how long this stays up before the mods slash and burn the references to that website that shall not be even referenced.

 

[thePill]

It will be interesting to see how long this stays up before the mods slash and burn the references to that website that shall not be even referenced.

The Mods are cool, just no direct links to the site. Besides, they love thePill...

Looking at some of the old z28 comparisons, it seems like the Z's charm wore off (or the ad space was up for rent again). By the time Motor Trend received a GT3, their tone on the z28 had changed dramatically.

Neither the regular 911 nor the base Camaro provide an ideal baseline package for a hardcore track car. The Chevy is too big and heavy, and the Porsche's engine is in the wrong place. The Z/28 development team worked hard -- lighter engine, brakes, wheels, thinner rear glass -- but the car still weighs 3,882 pounds, a hefty 615 pounds more than the GT3, and 53 percent of that is on the front wheels. That explains the Z/28's killer app: what Chevy says are the widest and stickiest front tires ever fitted to a production car. The GT3's weight-bias problem, of course, is at the other end of the car. Porsche's killer app? Rear-wheel steering. Electric actuators steer the rear wheels in the opposite direction to the fronts at low speeds to improve agility and in the same direction at high speeds to improve stability.

 

[traxiii]

The Mods are cool, just no direct links to the site. Besides, they love thePill...

I linked to a picture I downloaded to my computer, edited the web address off of and put on my dropbox host and they still axed it within a couple hours.:headbonk:

 

[thePill]

I linked to a picture I downloaded to my computer, edited the web address off of and put on my dropbox host and they still axed it within a couple hours.:headbonk:

Hopefully my openning line keeps it intact. If not, I will think of something.

Oh lord... I remember a time when all 5th Gen owners were convinced they had a sharp handler. I mean they were hand on the Bible convinced. There were never any doubt in their minds because there were never any negative reviews stating as such. What if Motor Trend was honest during their first Camaro review?

And I'll never forget my first stab at a fifth-gen, Zeta-platform Chevrolet Camaro SS, because it was the only time I drove straight off Turn 3 at Streets of Willow. What a miserable, bad car. And yet, here we are. That's right, my friends, Motor Trend is pitting the new Camaro Z/28 against the 911 Turbo S and the Nissan GT-R Track Edition.

Now here is the BS I'm talking about. With Chevy engineers on hand, they seemed to have set the tire pressure incorrectly. Oh no... that means the z28 lost its compariison by a second...

...but wait!!! Let's adjust the tire pressure and head back out to get some extra laps in the z28.

The track was a little bit wet because it had rained all night. The Nissan was first to run, and after four hot laps, Randy's best time around Barber's 2.4-mile circuit was 1:36.45. Next up was the potent Porsche, and it clicked off a quicker lap time of 1:36.34, beating the GT-R Track by 0.11 second. Finally, it was the Camaro's time to shine, but the best Randy could muster was 1:37.28. So there you go. The Camaro Z/28 lost to the bonkers Nissan and the German superfreak. The Chevy put up a good fight, but America, it seems, simply can't compete.

Just kidding!

Turns out we had the tire pressures set wrong. After dropping 6 psi per wheel, Randy went back out and knocked over a second off his lap. Yes, friends, despite having less power, an antiquated row-your-own transmission, and only RWD, the Camaro Z/28 laid down a time of 1:36.17, beating the Porsche by a larger margin (0.17 second) than the Turbo S clipped Godzilla (0.11 second). I went into this comparison thinking the Z/28 would be pretty damn great, but, at the end of the day, not as skilled nor as fleet as the Nissan or Porsche.

 

[9secondko]

And you have to wonder...

How was the "tire pressure" in the other cars. Did they also receive an additional run?

Probst is an interesting guy too.

Seems to be objective at times, but always seems to be noting things that favor his bias car when he drives both.

While noting the superior acceleration of a rival car, he'll bring up something like steering feel while blasting on a straight just to knock it down a peg. Lol

 

[thePill]

No, there was no tire pressure checks or re-runs after the z28 got some additional laps. Some things that were not discussed was, the GT-R was not a Track Pack GT-R, the 911's tires were P Zero's with a 220 TW rating, the z28 ran last while the other cars ran in mostly wet conditions in the morning...

A big deal to me is that the z28 initially lost... until they made some adjustments...

That is Chevy for ya'

And you thought only Tom Brady let the air out...

 

[thePill]

Your Autoweek and MT links are combined into a single one. Also, that Autoweek article is almost a year old! Surprised I missed it. They must have tested a GT3 prior to the fire incidents and subsequent recall? In that particular article, the Z/28 seemed to do very well, BTW. Certainly wasn't vanquished. Especially given the price discrepancy.

As far as the GT350(R) in comparison to the GT3? Well a huge factor will be availability. It may actually be easier to get a GT3 than a GT350R. Will be interesting to see how pricing for the R works out. If the GT350 (non-R) can come anywhere close, it will be a great success for Ford, as the GT3 seems to be an extremely good car.

Also, 6 lbs per HP on the GT350R is pretty crazy and probably not accurate. First of all, the GT3 is 3150 lbs with 475 HP...so 6.6 lbs per HP. I estimated around 3550 lbs for the GT350R, so 3550/6.6 = 537 HP. My guess on the Voodoo HP was 535, so those number seem believable. Can Ford get the power/weight down to 6 flat? That would be over 590 HP (for a 3550 lbs GT350R), which seems like too much power.

So, I believe 6.6 lbs per HP, but not 6. With much less weight over the rear and an "archaic" (but much more exciting, IMO) stick shift, the Ford will be slower 0-60 and in the 1/4. Track times may suffer somewhat due to that as well. Should be an interesting comparison, that's for sure.

-T

All squared away Track...

I would say vanquished, price was never any concern of theirs when placing a $77,000, 2014 Camaro against a $49,000, 2012 Boss 302. Nor was the model year gap a big deal back then. That is while the z28 is winning, now they cry foul because they are forced to watch a 2015 Camaro compared to a 2016 Mustang. I'm still hoping for a limited 2015 run just to shut that weakness down. Chevy couldn't afford a 2013 Boss 302 so they just kept using a 2012 for like 4 damn years. Besides, the 911 GT3 went on to defeat the z28 by 2.5 seconds correct? That is an ass-whoopin'.

As far as availiblity, I am not sure how limited a GT3 is. I'm getting the feeling that there will only be 500 GT350R's made the 1st year. That is the minimum requirement for homologation in CTSC GS. It would also mirror the z28's run of only 500 total. I feel the GT350 is more appropriate for the lesser z28 (yes, I said lesser). I have a feeling that the GT350TP was tailored more for the z28 and I'd expect production numbers to mirror the GT500's from the previous Gen. Before most of the GT350/TP/R models were really known, I had heard (and reported here) that the GT350 was using the z28 and C7 as benchmarks. The GT350R was using other vehicles to gauge its performance from. They were the 911 GT3, V10 R8, 458 and a few others. I would need to go back and look to be certain.

We have heard three different price points... The $52,995, $55,995 and $69,995... I assume that would be the 350/TP/R to scale. That is very attractive if true.

The 5.99 PtW ratio was from the 911 GT3 RSR, the baddest 911. The GT3's 475hp @ 3152lbs gives it a 6.63. Ford's current ballpark estimate of 500@3575 already puts our bad boy at 7.15. Already superior to the z28... far superior... Power to Weight Ratio is a difficult stat to overcome, especially the proposed gap between the R and z28. I think the GT350TP may be more the z28's speed. The 350TP will also be difficult to class due to MRC and possibly CCB's down the road. Regardless, there could be a $20,000 MSRP gap too... I think that's far out...

The GT350R will not be capable of out accelerating a GT3. I just don't see that happening in a magazine test. It would be ultra-rare in the wild as well.

3550@535hp? That sounds reasonable and, puts the PtW right where Dave said it would be. At 6.63, far better than the z28's 7.62. I imagine the GT350TP has a better PtW than the z28's as well. That would help support the rumors of the Street Fighter cleaning house with the z28 too. With a superior PtW ratio, it doesn't surprise me to hear that the z28 gets swept.

All good points, lots to think about here...

Edit: Here is something to think about... Do we really need a 3575lbs GT350 w/ 535hp?

What about 3500@525?

Or 3400@510?

If Ford intends on focusing on the GT3, should horsepower really be priority at this point? The GT3 is doing it with 475hp and a lot less torque. If we have a 6.63 PtW ratio, which one of those weight/HP packages would be the most optimal if the GT3 is the target?

I want to figure this out before anything is official...

I would say 100lbs is more valuable than the 15hp. Question now is... can it be accomplished?

If Dave is making this statement, it may say that weight was deemed priority. The vehicle weight between the two is one of the major factors here. It just seems like that would need to be in check before competing on that stage.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Edit: Just a correction on some GT3 stats, Porsche officially list the GT3 at 3152.6 lbs (a little too precise don't cha' think?).

Thimk (← ). . . how else would a German engineer translate 1430 kg? Which would be ±5 kg (±11.02 lbs ), BTW.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Thimk (← ). . . how else would a German engineer translate 1430 kg? Which would be ±5 kg (±11.02 lbs ), BTW.


Norm

Lol! Dumb Americans...

Sponsored