GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

You also have to keep in mind the possibility of a more efficient cage/bar design. For example, as the A pillar in new cars become even more angled, it's wise to NOT angle the A pillar tube. Going straight from the roof hoop to the side tube is far more efficient. I'm afraid the distance between the z28 and ZL1 is nothing more than an improved cage/bar design. You can't see the ZL1's cage in the video, I didn't know how built it was until the media event. The other z28's we're running full cages, this leads me to believe the run was a caged run. In fact, once manufacturers get close to the 8 minute mark, some sort of driver protection is added... It's not required as far as I know but, it's common sense. You guys were sold on it and are pathetically trying to justify it here.

Just because you were fooled doesn't mean everyone else needs to be gullible. Of course, GM feels that they are not liable for human death so... Who knows.

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[PowerUp]

This just in:
[ame]

 

[mustangletback]

You also have to keep in mind the possibility of a more efficient cage/bar design. For example, as the A pillar in new cars become even more angled, it's wise to NOT angle the A pillar tube. Going straight from the roof hoop to the side tube is far more efficient. I'm afraid the distance between the z28 and ZL1 is nothing more than an improved cage/bar design. You can't see the ZL1's cage in the video, I didn't know how built it was until the media event. The other z28's we're running full cages, this leads me to believe the run was a caged run. In fact, once manufacturers get close to the 8 minute mark, some sort of driver protection is added... It's not required as far as I know but, it's common sense. You guys were sold on it and are pathetically trying to justify it here.

Just because you were fooled doesn't mean everyone else needs to be gullible. Of course, GM feels that they are not liable for human death so... Who knows.

when people waste their money on the CRAPMARO z28 they will see just like the fools that bought the zl1,its not as fast as what the Gigantic Mistake claimed.:lol:

 

[thePill]

Uh Oh... While a 455rwhp is very good, that, along with its curb weight AND it's projected race weight drops it to the 8:1 classes in NASA. Have fun with that... It either needs detuned or add a lot of ballast weight.

I'm not sure what the drivetrain losses are but I think that makes it more than 505. I heard 15-18% so, closer to 530-550hp. Yet it still cannot manage some decent ET's for an almost 600hp car. Yes, it's not a drag car... In my opinion, the 5th Gen in general isn't a good drag car.

 

[Jim968]

Uh Oh... While a 455rwhp is very good, that, along with its curb weight AND it's projected race weight drops it to the 8:1 classes in NASA. Have fun with that... It either needs detuned or add a lot of ballast weight.

Nope. At that HP level the car can very easily run in NASA ST3.

Minimum race weight for ST3 at 455 RWHP = 455*9.0 = 4,095 lbs.

Subtract car weight of 3,862 lbs. and you get 233 lbs.

233 lbs. is pretty much perfect to cover driver weight and any net weight gain for safety equipment (Cage plus fire system plus race seat minus stock seats and interior stripping). If you have a really small driver you might end up adding a small amount of ballast. LOTS of race cars carry ballast to make minimum weight, and those that do usually end up running closer to their minimum weight than those that don’t.

 

[thePill]

Your pretty much screwed regardless... Either class in 8:1 or weigh 4100lbs. If your 200-230+lbs and driving, you should focus on your own weight reduction.

Anyone in here that knows me personally will vouch, thePill takes driver weight dead serious. Ballast are bad enough, a fat driver can't be repositioned.

Keep in mind, just a standard 6 point bar weighs 100lbs (.120 wall) along with 20-30lbs of additional safety equipment. You asking a driver to be less than 100lbs at this point.

I can tell you, after my own personal fitness experience, just carrying a 20-21BMI is difficult. We are looking at 300-400lbs over the z28's curb weight.

Unsat...

 

[Jim968]

Keep in mind, just a standard 6 point bar weighs 100lbs (.120 wall) along with 20-30lbs of additional safety equipment. You asking a driver to be less than 100lbs at this point.

I can tell you, after my own personal fitness experience, just carrying a 20-21BMI is difficult. We are looking at 300-400lbs over the z28's curb weight.

Unsat...

Spoken like someone who has never converted a street car to a race car. You’re forgetting to subtract the stuff that gets removed. Passenger seat and rear seats get removed. Driver’s seat gets replaced with a light weight racing shell. Interior trim is usually completely or at least partially removed for cage installation. Airbags get removed. Stereo and speaker(s) get removed. Tire repair/inflation kit gets removed. Side window glass is often removed.

You’re also overestimating the weight of the cage. The FULL cage that went into my race car weighed only 115 lbs. This was almost entirely offset by the weight that came out. Net weight gain was roughly 15 lbs.

 

[thePill]

Jim, I have no idea what your talking about. You said a driver, cage and safety equipment would weigh 233lbs. I was merely pointing out that 20 foot of .120 wall to build a simple 6 point roll bar weighed 100lbs. While the equipment YOU mentioned to justify your fantasy scenario would weigh close to 30lbs. That means, the driver you are suggesting would only be allowed to weigh 100lbs to make this make belief work.

I didn't bring up extensive weight reduction because crazy argument didn't include it. I don't care how much your cage weighed, 20 foot of .120 weighs 100lbs... Most cars can get a roll bar (especially the 5th Gens) out of 20 foot. .120 is the most common...

Don't drag in another garbage argument to make your initial nonsense make sense. Had enough of that with Stuntman.

As far as ST3 goes, your probably going to be the heaviest vehicle out there by 700lbs. It absolutely NEEDS to weigh 4100lbs to make the class. Thats post race weight too, 100lbs for fuel? Looking at closer to 4200lbs. That's a huge disadvantage...

 

[Jim968]

Jim, I have no idea what your talking about. You said a driver, cage and safety equipment would weigh 233lbs. I was merely pointing out that 20 foot of .120 wall to build a simple 6 point roll bar weighed 100lbs. While the equipment YOU mentioned to justify your fantasy scenario would weigh close to 30lbs. That means, the driver you are suggesting would only be allowed to weigh 100lbs to make this make belief work.

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. When you convert a car to go W2W racing you install a cage and other safety items, and remove non-essential items from the interior. The cage and safety items are weight additions and the non-essential items are weight reductions. Some of the non-essential items like rear seats are REQUIRED to be removed in order to install the cage.

Here's a simple example with conservative estimates as nobody has published weights for Z/28 interior items yet:

+ 3,862 - Car weight
+ 175 - Driver
+ 115 - Cage
+ 25 - Fire system and misc items
- 40 - Passenger seat removed
- 15 - Swap driver seat for racing seat
- 30 - Remove rear seats
= 4,092

From there you adjust up or down as needed with ballast or other easy weight reductions as mentioned in my previous post.

What I don't understand is why you don't know this. You claim to have race experience and this is really basic stuff.

 

[Norm Peterson]

5 lbs/ft is way high for what steel tubing weighs. Even the 2" x 0.120 wall stuff is only about 2.4 lbs/ft. 20 feet of that . . . I get closer to 50 lbs, plus a few more for plates at the platform attachment points.


Norm

 

[thePill]

I guess I'll pull out a piece and weigh it again. I could be wrong, but I doubt it's too far off. A 3rd Gens main hoop was 115-120 in. of .120, it weighed 40lbs with 2 1/8 inch plates. Unless the guys are cutting more than 20 foot.

I still have side tubes, triangulation at the base and a cross tube, probably another 40lbs not counting padding. It's pretty close to 100lbs in larger vehicles.

He's talking cage... I'm sorry, I just don't find 4000lbs cars attractive for anything. People with zero competition experience seem to love them.

A foot of .120 is not lightweight by any means.

Edit: Stop me if I'm wrong, isn't a 5th Gens main hoop well over 120 inches long? It was closer to 130in of .120 too...

 

[thePill]

I'm not sure what's so hard to understand. When you convert a car to go W2W racing you install a cage and other safety items, and remove non-essential items from the interior. The cage and safety items are weight additions and the non-essential items are weight reductions. Some of the non-essential items like rear seats are REQUIRED to be removed in order to install the cage.

Here's a simple example with conservative estimates as nobody has published weights for Z/28 interior items yet:

+ 3,862 - Car weight
+ 175 - Driver
+ 115 - Cage
+ 25 - Fire system and misc items
- 40 - Passenger seat removed
- 15 - Swap driver seat for racing seat
- 30 - Remove rear seats
= 4,092

From there you adjust up or down as needed with ballast or other easy weight reductions as mentioned in my previous post.

What I don't understand is why you don't know this. You claim to have race experience and this is really basic stuff.

Jim,

When, during your extensive racing experience, was a 4000+lbs car GOOD. Who taught you that was GOOD?

If you really have a leg to stand on Jim, you would be pointing and laughing if you were experienced. 4000lbs is a very funny joke.

Remember, you need to be at minimum weight after the race. Fuel will need to be figured in... I highly doubt your going to finish a race on a full tank.

Edit: I know it kills you guys to find out I'm educated and experienced in these areas. As long as you feel good about it, that's all that matters. If you want to drive a 4100lb car TO the track and compete... Just know, I'm probably getting a chuckle out of it. I get a chuckle out of you anyway Jim. I said 4100lbs and you came up with 4092lbs.. Oh my god, sue me for not being precise. I'm not precise with you because I don't think your brain can handle it. Just being honest... I don't actually have the time to do internet math. Did you see the sketch I posted on FB? I think I'm sick of Geometry and Trig on a daily basis... I estimate and rule of thumb because because...

...so excuse me for not knowing what some idiot on the internet is talking about...

 

[thePill]

Any competitive argument after 4000+lbs is concerned is either;

a.) trying to validate a broken ass personal argument or,

b.) trying to discredit me because they can't defend a 4000+lbs race car.

period... stop talking about it. I lose a great deal of respect for those that think otherwise. 4000lbs is a joke...

For reference, look at what a typical 5th gen weighs with a 6-8 point bar and 6 point cage. 4000+lbs without driver and full tank. Nah... You can keep it...

 

[thePill]

...and don't just rip your passenger seat out either. You need all four corner weights, the percentages and cross weights before you determine that. That 40lbs, with some of that in the "reclined" position can help your cross weight distribution as well as lower your CG and RC.

Don't just assume that 40lbs on the right side is bad... Especially after some driver seat weight reduction.

Lol!!! At this point, you should have worried about a 4100lbs Camaro 700lbs ago. What's 40lbs now lolol!!!

How about this expert... Why don't we try and detuned the engine first hotshot. We can do weight reduction then...

 

[Stuntman]

...and don't just rip your passenger seat out either. You need all four corner weights, the percentages and cross weights before you determine that. That 40lbs, with some of that in the "reclined" position can help your cross weight distribution as well as lower your CG and RC.

I can see if the reclined seat is lower than the CG it would lower it (probably insignificantly), but how would it affect the RC?

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