GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Simply, until the vehicles running at the Ring lays down a baseline, stock OEM lap, we will never know how much a cage helps.

That said, as long as a cage remains in the car for "official" runs, WE will never know the true potential of the platform. A cage can be constructed as needed when no Rulebooks are around. The ZL1 had a hefty cage, what if a small portion of the z28's advantage over the ZL1 was due to a new, more efficient cage design? Now that part is in the car and working to an unknown degree, it becomes part of the equation... Or in many regards, another missing link. This is a technical variable, a major one, that never makes production.

I think I'm done talking about the Ring, it's an elementary conversation that provides zero specifics about the car in question. There are no control measures to prevent Team Camaro from shaving lap times...

I said, SHAVING LAP TIMES....

I think the Ring conversation should end there. If you can't accept that they cheated in such a highly visible area, you won't understand Chassis Fabrication and Engineering.

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[thePill]

Show me the pic/vid it wasn't




I can't believe you're comparing tires to roll cages. You're better than that. No doubt they do help when the chasis is beyond its normal compromise which would be what 10-15 times on the ring allowing the car to gain tenths of a sec each time.

I'm just trying to dumb this down as best I can. It's a combined upgrade, the cage itself is not responsible. Once a cage is installed, all OEM suspension function changes. In order to get a caged z28 to run a 7:37, there had to be suspension, brake and tire tuning to compensate.

Now that the z28 that actually ran is missing (or never shown), I can't even really speculate how much would be gained. A tire may net you a second on the OEM chassis when stock suspension undergoes geometry changes... But, that same tires performance will be amplified to an unmeasurable degree (Torsional Rigidity Test required), once the suspension geometry is tied down. I was simply trying to give an example someone could understand.

I hope this helps some D, I have a feeling it will just piss upon their Cheerios.

 

[on d bit]

No doubt GM cheats at ring lap times as their is plenty of evidence over the years. Same with Nissan or anyone marketing ring times. That said the performance in the cars today we will always see some sort of cage in the for the protection of the driver/engineers.

 

[thePill]

I need to asked SID if I can use those screen captures of the z28's finish. It was classic, I won't ever let them live that down. He stopped it almost right at 7:37 and the finish line wasn't even in frame yet.

They just seem to ignore it and talk about the 11 seconds of rain, that cost them a now speculated 12.x seconds. But it's insane to think an uncaged ZL1 would lose its 7:41 to a 7:50. I CAN see a ZL1 picking up 9 seconds with the cage they used and the suspension, brakes and tire tuning to compensate. Hell, tuning would need to be done to compensate for just the extra 100lbs and new balance to run a 7:25-7:37. I'm sure those components were optimized for performance.

None of that really matters anyway, they started the stop watch late on that 7:41 run. Still would like to see some media repercussions from SID's findings.

How awful...

 

[Jim968]

Show me the pic/vid it wasn't

Check out the photos accompanying the video on this page. No roll bar.

http://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...at-nurburgring-in-misty-weather-ar160748.html

 

[Jim968]

Please find some evidence of it not being caged...

See previous post.

So the camo car was caged, then they came back with a different z28 without the cage? Why?

Why? To save weight.

 

[on d bit]

I don't see interior pics of the car. I also don't see the wet that everyone is talking about either.

 

[thePill]

Most of those pictures are from the Milford media packet... I posted this some time ago on the other thread.

 

[on d bit]

They just seem to ignore it and talk about the 11 seconds of rain, that cost them a now speculated 12.x seconds.

They ran the z28 many many laps in the dry and on camera, not once did they break 37. They ran faster in the supposed rain than they ran in the dry. I wonder how that happened?

 

[thePill]

See, no graffiti and no chain link fence. The Corvette below was testing at Milford, it was part of a previous press release. Everyone knows there is a tall chain link fence at Nurburgring, and graffiti everywhere. They did try to pass these off as Nurburgring pics though... It even appears the z28 is running the Ring backwards as well.

FYI, that looks like the same exact location in both pics above. Look at the railing construction...

Booooooo....

 

[Jim968]

FYI, that looks like the same exact location in both pics above. Look at the railing construction...

I agree. It looks like those pictures are not taken at the Ring. But it is a silver car, and so was the one that turned the Ring lap. That's the best I can come up with a Google search.

You, on the other hand, can't come up with any pictures of a silver car with any cage pieces in it. Or any first hand account mentioning that a cage/roll bar was run. Or any evidence whatsoever... All you have is a video that conclusively proves that the car was not running a full cage.

 

[Jim968]

I don't see interior pics of the car.

The picture taken from the rear clearly shows that there is no diagonal bar as you would have with a rear half cage/roll bar.

Another picture shows the use of a stock seat belt. A car with a rear half cage/roll bar would be using harnesses.

 

[thePill]

I agree. It looks like those pictures are not taken at the Ring. But it is a silver car, and so was the one that turned the Ring lap. That's the best I can come up with a Google search.

You, on the other hand, can't come up with any pictures of a silver car with any cage pieces in it. Or any first hand account mentioning that a cage/roll bar was run. Or any evidence whatsoever... All you have is a video that conclusively proves that the car was not running a full cage.

I can't find that z28 anywhere, and I willing to bet it was caged. I haven't seen an uncaged, time run under maybe 7:55. There are a few old sports cars that did, but that was back during the standing start era. Until I see a phot of the real car, I say it probably was caged.

The ZL1 was caged and they marketed that pretty heavy. Although, they had the ZL1's doors open during that media spot. Now, the z28 is distributed in Mildord lap pics and a Nurburgring sticker on the back...

...SOLD!!! It must be true!!!

The reason the z28 is seen lapping Milford in the Nurburgring press release photos is, it's probably not the same car. Don't you think it's awfully shinny for a 2 week test car?

Come on bud, a single track day will beat a car up more than what they are selling.

Don't be so gullible Jim. The car in those photos are spotless Jim, look at the ZL1's paint job after 30 laps.

 

[thePill]

Auto week claims they rode shotgun with a 5 point harness, Sparco's and a roll bar in the media cars at Milford. I don't know...

Seems strange...

Even the reporter doesn't know better. These were the cars that were faster than the GT500 and Boss 302, no cages probably, and that's it... pbbbbbbbbbbbb....

 

[Trackaholic]

There is a big difference between a cage and a rollbar in terms of adding torsional (and bending) rigidity. The video seems to show that there is no support along the A-Pillar, so at most is seems the Z/28 would have had a rollbar, which would add very little to improve handling.

Keep in mind that adding a cage to the chassis is like adding another spring in parallel with the chassis (and both of those are in series with the relatively compliant suspension). If the chassis is already very stiff, adding a cage will not do much to improve handling (for example, McLaren claims that their 12C Spyder is about equal in stiffness to the hardtop version, with no added reinforcement to compensate for the missing roof). If the chassis is flexible, adding a cage will help, but adding a simple roll hoop will do little because it does not tie the front of the car to the rear.

Therefore, given that the Zeta platform is a beefy one, I'd suspect that a roll bar would not do much to improve the ring times of the Z/28. Therefore, all this concern over caged/non-caged is not applicable to this situation, IMO.

The lack of transparency is a valid concern, but given all the other tests of the Z/28, I think it is fair to say that the car performs damn well.

I think it makes a great performance target for some version of the Mustang, hopefully at a significantly reduced price.

-T

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