GT350 vs. Z/28

[garagelogic]

As long as his claims detract from anything related to the a Camaro on this site, I'm all for it! Pretty sure I'm not alone in that position.

You'll have better things to do tomorrow when the Probst review of the z/28 is released.

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[thePill]

I wasn't aware the fan guide superseded the IMSA Rulebook, I will referance that from now on. The term "factory racing" would suggest perticpants need to be near OEM, including drivetrains. I wasn't aware Nissan and Porsche were granted an additional 50hp to be competitive. With all that nonsense aside, this is a factory class... There were absolutely NO output levels over 400hp. Sorry bud, the rules are the rules...

If the Boss produced 444hp and the M3 makes 412, how do you reckon those engines maintain those power levels (or increase) with such large restrictions? That is a mystery....

A rule of thumb, less air equals less horsepower.... A 33mm restrictor would more than likely decrease the Boss's power to well under 400hp. That's damn near 40% of its airflow reduced and you think it's still a 400-450hp car? So does the sealed OEM engines from Porsche and Nissan get an extra 100hp to be competitive? A cam and exhaust isn't gonna get a 6'er from 340 to 400hp, even if it did, it would be mandated for the 370Z to take on more weight. It wouldn't be a 3100lbs car. The Porsche engine is a 3.6 I believe, unless they brought in a 3.8 in 2012. It would explain the progress Porsche has made the last two seasons. No, it's in the Rulebook bud and until the Z/28.R is through with developement, it's very own restrictions will be tampered with. A 15mm restriction isn't going to get an LS7 below 400hp, NOT GONNA HAPPEN....

I know it hurts seeing an impotent platform stuffed with cubic inches in a class it's not ready for.

The Camaro needs 50-100 more horsepower to be competitive in that class. The outgoing GS initially had a restriction to bring the LS3 to sub-400hp levels. Due to the GS.R's uneventful season, Eventually, mid-2011, those restrictions were removed... Again, allowing the Camaro a HP advantage. It was the first V8 with an over 400hp waiver... Because it sucked pretty bad the first 2 seasons.

So, with a small 15mm restriction, your saying the LS7 makes what? From 505hp, with a 15mm restriction, what do you think the Z/28.R's LS7 makes in that class?

Keep in mind, the 444hp Boss 302 has a 33mm restriction... and your still convinced it sees less of a HP loss than the LS7 at a 15mm restriction? The M3 is another fine example...

Making 412HP, it uses a dual 30 something mm restriction. How is it that a Boss 302 and M3 can be restricted to such levels yet still make the same OEM horsepower. These are sealed crate engines too mind you.

No, I'm sorry, your fan guide is wrong. The MAXIMUM horsepower allowed in the class is 400 per IMSA. The Porsche and Nissan use OEM power levels which I believe is 355 and 340 but hose two entries are in the 3100lbs race weight range. So the HP/weight is pretty much on par with the 3300lbs Boss and M3. Both in which are heavily restricted in airflow.

Sounds pretty loose to me... I thought you Camaro guys were done kicking and screaming. It's lame I know...

PS: Didn't driver Matt Bell openly admit the restricted GS.R made 390hp? That was discussed on Camaro5 in the Motorsport section. it had a small restrictor on it, 10-12mm I think. I think my napkin math is more believable than your magic Chevy theory. I say, remove the Boss and M3's restrictions now that a 7 liter, LS7 is permitted to run such HP levels. They are V8's though, air is important.

So, let's re-adjust then...
Porsche 3.8 at 408hp @ 3050lbs
Nissan 3.7 at 350-400hp @ 3100lbs
BMW 4.0 (I6 Biturbo soon) w/ 412hp @ 3200lbs with a 36x2 restriction. Only a 12hp loss?
Mustang 5.0 w/444hp @ 3300lbs using a 57mm restrictor. I think that would bring it below 400hp, it's a 40% restriction.
Camaro 7.0 (lol) at 505hp @ 3400lbs w/ a 15mm restriction. Is that 15mm responsible for the 105 hp loss? Can't be... It would lose less than the M3 for sure, no doubt about that. That 470hp figure is from Camaro5. Doesn't look very honorable to me. King of the road course? I think not, at least not with a 7 liter V8.

Anyway, today is the day... The embargo is lifted... Let the smashing begin!!!

 

[thePill]

Ah, here we go... Paul Browns 2012 Boss 302S made 404rwhp straight from Ford Racing. The restricted SCCA GTS made 355rwhp, I still believe the IMSA's 57mm restriction is by far the largest. If the 302R is restricted, it should bring all the competitors down to a 350-375hp spread.

On the Camaro side, it's making 470rwhp (per Camaro5) with a 15mm restriction. The Boss lost 50hp with the restrictions (33mm). I'd say the Z/28.R's 25hp @ 15mm loss is on par with the Boss's 50hp loss w/ a 33mm restriction don't you?

Let's see, 470hp + 25hp is??? 495hp vs a 355hp Boss (restricted), 408hp Porsche, 340hp Nissan (plus upgrades) and a 412hp BMW... Sounds fair to me.

Keep in mind, an overall smaller displacement will suffer more from any air restrictions than a larger displacement engine. An FI engine see less drawbacks from air restrictions. Either way, the V8's are making less HP in that class than the 6's, probably why BMW has decided to replace the V8 with a Biturbo 6.

It won't surprise me if Ford moves to an Ecoboost 3.5 in this class down the road. It fits right in now...

 

[GMAN6]

I never was into personally racing on a road course, but after reading all these post and learning a little more about it, I don't think any of it really means anything.

All the cars are modified and restricted in various ways, all of which are determined by the sanctioning body so essentially, it is the sanctioning body that decides who ultimately has the best car.

I can see them wanting to "level" the playing field. I'm sure thins is done so that everyone has a chance to win which draws a bigger crowd and makes more money. It's mostly just politics geared toward making money.

Even if the playing field were level and each car had the exact same capabilities then it would only showcase driver skills, not manufactures abilities.

What I would like to see is a race where either everyone ran a bone stock car or everyone ran a stock car with the exact same tires. That would be awesome. We could see which cars held up best stock for stock, which cars had the best racing suspension setup, and which had the best power to weight ratio. Let the drivers alternate from race track to race track.

 

[thePill]

I was wrong, not 400hp class max, it was 405 as I reported on the Assault Thread on page 29.

You can start back peddling now ;)

IMSA must be mistaken, your probably right... Why the Camaro is allowed a 100hp advantage is still a very good question. I know that extra 100lbs isn't holding that 100 extra horsepower back. Regardless, it seems a restricted Boss 302S and 302R get closer to that 350 number than the class maximum.

That info took me all but 5 seconds to Google.

Therefore, a 444hp Boss 302 puts down 404rwhp without restrictions. However, with the SCCA GTS restrictions (need to check the size), the Boss makes 355rwhp OR, close to that 405hp at the crank. Either way, restricted... It makes close to the 405hp class maximum at the crank (not used for inspections). Unrestricted, it makes 404rwhp.

The Camaro needs a huge horsepower advantage in order to be competitive.

A restricted Boss 302 makes 355rwhp...

A restricted Z/28 makes 470rwhp...(According to Camaro5 via Racer.something which got the info from Stevenson.)

WOW!!! How much weight is between the two? You said 3360lbs vs. 3400lbs right? 115hp advantage only giving up 40lbs? Seems legit... I wouldn't hold my head high that's for sure...

It's very, very, very sad...

Edit: Now that the numbers are laid out, the Camaro seems even more pathetic.

 

[thePill]

Now, do the math...

Boss 302R + 57mm restrictor (33mm reduction) = 355RWHP from a 444hp engine (89hp loss)

Z/28.R + 75mm restrictor (15mm reduction) = 470RWHP from a 505hp engine (35hp loss)

The Boss 302R has an additional 18mm inlet restriction over the Z/28.R. The Boss 302R is also down an addional 54hp over the Z's losses.

Napkin math:
-15mm = -35hp
-30mm = -70hp
-33mm = -89hp

Remember, smaller displacement engines will see more loses as the restriction gets larger.

This isn't exact Science and I do not have a degree in Automotive Technology or HP Powertrain BUT, I am quite versed in simple logic and mathematics.

Anyone see an issue with these figures?

 

[thePill]

Listen bud, I'm sorry... That is that...

You can moan and groan all you want. This was a subject explored back in November- December. 350-405 has been the class standard for some time, back as far as the FR500.

Of course, if you car is a piece of shit, you get a waiver. Fat kids would get waivers in the military because they couldn't run. Same thing applies here.

...AND, the Boss 302S had the exact same engine. Reported by Mustang Monthly or 5.0 Mag in the Boss vs. Boss comparison, it was running from 355 restricted to 404 unrestricted. It is what it is...

Moving on...

 

[thePill]

Your argument has collapsed... again.

Both the Boss 302 and z28 have a 90mm TB. A millimeter is a millimeter, no matter how you measure it. Are we done with the Maximum Class HP argument? I guess we need to explore another angle to defend the Camaro with now.

Until your math makes more sense than mine, you lose... and you absolutely need to come in here armed with more than a Camaro lust. It doesn't belong CTSC, never did.

If the SCCA's GTS restrictor is larger than the IMSA CTSC's, I'll let ya know.

However, if Paul Brown said 355 in GTS, I said 370 to begin with. That would be pretty close to what I was told years ago.

 

[thePill]

BINGO! Found more dirt to bury you...

Now, this isn't set in stone and should be taken in for entertainment value ONLY. This individual, pretty experienced, says the GTS Boss 302S initially wore a 49mm restrictor (WOW) which is greater than the GS Boss 302R. He claims they were authorized a 52mm early/mid 2012. Now, the article I brought up about Pauls Championship Boss 302S said the car made 355rwhp with the SCCA restriction.

I claimed the Boss 302R made 370-375hp with a 57mm restriction.

Let's see how full of shit I am... Off of my memory alone...

Boss 302S = 355RWHP with a 49-52mm restriction in SCCA GTS.

I said: Boss 302R = 370hp with a 57mm restriction in IMSA CTSC.

I also say: Z/28.R = 470hp with a 75mm restriction...

Sounds like bullshit to me... especially the z28 part.

This was a thread response to the Boss 302 protest in SCCA.

I'll give you the rest of the day to back peddle... Because it is my favorite thing to watch.

 

[Jim968]

That's the fan guide NOT the rulebook

Give it up man. thePill is clearly incapable of reading and understanding a motorsports rule book.

 

[thePill]

Yes, the Camaro is pretty much exempt from CTSC Rules. It needs to be or it would never win. The GS.R also had its restrictions removed because it sucked hardcore. Now move along...

The reviews are out, once I get some free time I will look them over.

I see a 12.3 and 12.7 in the quarter, that is absolutely awful. What a shame...

It ran Barber in 1:36.1, it wasn't hot or humid at all, now they are saying the track was cold.. That is not a real strong time for a 505hp car at all... Not that lap times matter to a car that's not allowed to lap as is :(

 

[FATTBoss]

Stuntman, let me get this straight. The Camaro wins the last race and 3 other teams, Porsche, BMW and Ford, are given further weight penalties and nothing to Team Camaro? The penalties to the Porsche are lonnnnggg overdue, but I may not even bother watching anymore this season if this continues...

 

[FATTBoss]

Oh, and Pill, the track temps the day of the test were in the 30's. You know as well as most that temps that cold on what is essentially an R compound tire is an exercise in futility. My own Yoko Advans are slippery as hell below 40*.

We all get it, and to a point I agree with you, the Z/28 is not what we would consider a true Z/28. To me the 1LE is more in the spirit of the original, and even closer to the GS car than the Z will ever be. But at some point, all your ranting just destroys any credibility you may or may not have.

 

[FATTBoss]

Believe me, I was screaming at my TV the last 2 seasons about the sandbagging Porsches. No matter what penalty they were given, they still managed to set fastest lap at nearly every track, even when they didn't win. I can't believe they further penalized the Mustangs, even if it was just 10 pounds, given the dominance shown by the rest of the field.

I may watch in August as that may be when Multimatic begins campaigning the new Mustang, but other than that, I'll watch re-runs Pinks.

 

[Jim968]

It ran Barber in 1:36.1, it wasn't hot or humid at all, now they are saying the track was cold.. That is not a real strong time for a 505hp car at all... Not that lap times matter to a car that's not allowed to lap as is :(

Using your vast knowledge of motor racing in general, and Barber Motorsports Park specifically, what would be a good time for a 505 hp car on R tires with ambient temps in the 30’s?

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