GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

You tell me what was incorrect about the Z/28.R not being even close to OEM.

It is indeed just as bad as the Challenger that just left as far as upgrades? I was correct... You brought up the Challengers record, which I still can't see the historic results. Until 2011, the Camaro was winless and only had a a podium. It was sucking... All the GS.Rs restrictions were removed and it still sucks.

The previous FR500 was a better match for the Z/28.R. I was correct... You brought up a tube frame and sequential manual. The previous FR500 had none of that. Your talking composite bodies and things I never, ever seen in GS.

You said the Z/28.R was just as OEM as everyone else... Is that not misinformation?

Because that statement is what started my rampage. You didn't even know where the LS7 came from or that the ever was a Mustang GTR.

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[thePill]

I had already predetermined that you were an idiot far before your OEM statement. You don't know where the LS7 came from. That is the spirit of the entire topic...

...how you came in hear, unarmed with the basics. Misinformation and uninformed, that was your first two post buddy.

 

[thePill]

Awwww... Don't whine about it. That's accepted in the Camaro community but not here.

So the Z/28.R is near OEM? Is that the grain of salt they shouldn't listen to? Because I'm pretty sure that statement isn't accurate.

That's what you want to sell over here isn't it? Go ahead, tells us how I was incorrect. We will get this back on topic.

Go on...

Edit: STOP TRYING TO PASS OFF A STREET CAR AS A RACE CAR. That shit is seriously not cool. Stop treating people like that just to gain money and reputation not earned. It might be just as fast as the Z/28.R but they are not the same car.

 

[FATTBoss]

Somewhere in these last few posts someone mentioned seam welding and it read as if that was something only the Mustang teams did. Per the IMSA rules for all cars, seam welding is allowed, so I would bet all the GS and even ST cars are seam welded.

Oh and whomever pointed out that the current fuel is VP100, you were correct. That is also listed in the general specs I found today on the IMSA site.

As to the rest of this "discussion", there are way too many acronyms and numbers flying around and it's hurting my head. I think I'm done with this. Everyone knows my feelings on the Z/28R and whether it should be allowed. In case you don't know, I disagree with a 7.0 liter engine in the class.

 

[thePill]

Actually bud, all FR500's were seam welded (as advertised and the OEM standard). I was unaware teams were permitted to alter the car to that degree. Both the 500GT and GT3 were OEM shells. This guys upset because I had no idea the 500GT Ford developed for Grand Am GT was changed by a 3rd party. Even the GT3 car wasn't IRS, tube framed and so in. It was modified later.

If you don't have a seam welded body, then you need a tube frame. Seam welding is the OEM standard.

He just didn't want to discuss the z28 anymore because his ass was wrong. I'm not sure you even noticed how far from stock the GS Camaro is. He brought up everything to try and save some face after his uninformed comment. I absolutely can't stand morons who try and mislead you about their favorite product. I guess I have wounded some people to a degree that this is justified. Discredit the messenger to avoid discussing the message. Lame... Pick a different favorite car if the one you like sucks. I'm not sure what to say.

I for one do not think the Camaro should be in GS or GT. I don't want it in GTS or T1 either... It is ruining the class.

If what I post bothers you, PLEASE DO NOT READ MY POST. Obviously people are reading, over 2000 views this weekend.

To those that enjoy Vs. thanks for reading!!! We will hopefully get some info in a few weeks.

 

[thePill]

If the 5th Gen and z28 are so dominant at road racing, why do they require the changes? Is what they claim the z28 to be false? The Camaro's exterior panels are Carbon fiber, everything OEM has been removed and replaced with Pratt Miller race components. The 7 liter LS7 is the largest engine in the class by 2 liters. It also appears the z28 may be closer to 500hp. The class maximum is 400hp, a number the Boss and M3 needs to be restricted to.

Is this how you dominate road racing? With no Championships to look back on and only 7 wins worldwide in factory racing? Nice z28 heritage... I knew this issue wouldn't be fixed when I seen the z28's standard equipment. Everything needed removed. To shed weight, the OEM panels needed replaced. Once you start altering sheet metal to that degree, it's a wash. I never liked GT, at the time, there were too many modifications being done to some cars. The RX8 comes to mind. Nah... I'd much rather wait until the classes are cleaned up. I'm not boycotting GS, I don't really watch it now. I would get back into it if there wasn't sh!t like this going on.

 

[thePill]

Fair enough, I would really like to take a look at the old classes and the FR500. I know now why there was some conflict about the car choice. I assume Ford wanted to get a car into GT with a seam welded shell. The article I posted said neither Fords offering or the Crawford car was successful in GT. It could be that the 500GT was never picked up. I assumed it was run prior to 2007.

Stitch welding is a technique, it is a heat management technique. That means it was likely done by hand. I think they do have an automated system though. Every car on the road is seam welded, the technique in which it is done varies.

I do apologize for being harsh, most of that was built up for attacking my hopes for a 50th Anniversary Mustang GTR. As you can see, based on the class discussion, there are a lot of different variations of Mustang needed. I have a feeling the GT350 will be Fords first honest attempt at GT in a Mustang. I think there is a common misconception about the GT350, it is not the Boss replacement... The new GT is the Boss replacement. The GT350 may be poised to take some new ground. I never liked using the FR500 as a bragging point, not even the Championships. Those 4 years of FR500 dominance spawned the Boss program. That endeavor into Factory Racing has paid off for Ford...

...and it all started with the Mustang GTR. I think it is appropriate, regardless if Nissan trademarked the "GTR" in the US years later. The Nissan GTR has a dash I believe (GT-R) or maybe those were the Japanese Skylines that used a GT-R.

Anyway, I will debate all day, everyday. I will not however, let anyone leave smart ass replies about an idea. You were not debating anything, just short jabs at an idea. Not knowing that the car existed and how many roles needed filled.

Two more things real quick then I need to get back in there. I posted a picture of the MARC VDS engine bay on page 4 of this thread. The GT3 Mustang doesn't look like a composite body to me. It has been altered, but that looks like metal.

The Tudor class GT.Rs and the GS.R. In Grand Am (2011), if the car entered was heavily modified, it got a generic name. In GS, I believe both the Challenger and Camaro were GS.R's. You would need to look at IMSA's Score card to see how they are listed. The "Boss GT" in 2010 was named by Grand Am, not Ford. The Mustang in GT was never officially called a GT.R, the organization implemented this generic name scheme. In 2007, Black Forest called their Mustang a Cobra. It was an S197... I think this was one of the reasons this was implemented.

Seeing the Z/28.R and what was changed, comparing that to the Camaro GS.R, I don't understand how they were given the thumbs up. I just think there are far too many waivers for the Camaro happening right now. They failed to meet ALL class standards and yet go almost unrestricted. It is a 400hp class, the Boss and M3 are below that even... It's all pretty lame.

That was my original claim, the Z/28.R's non-compliant ass being allowed to race in a factory class. I only realized the engine was almost unrestricted during a conversation a few months back. There was nothing wild about that... It has a horrible record in road racing, it was one of the worst in Grand Am, NASCAR came in and helped some. The other cars are compliant... seems unfair but oh well. I'm still going to let people know it's no good. A lot of people don't realize how different it is (FATTBoss). Those same people didn't know the '14 z28 would not be permitted to race ANYWHERE. Once the Z/28.R showed up heavily modified, it only solidified my argument. Once tons of information is brought in unrelated to the topic, I get just as wild with my post as those who posted "wild claims" of their own. Once you find out the Z was what I said it was, that should have been it.

Here is the issue... Ford had to go the same route from 2005 to 2009, that's 4 years, maybe half a dozen Championships and Titles. Not saying they are worth nothing, just at the OEM level. The body was OEM and that was far better than the previous generations. The Boss GT changed everything, it was near OEM... and it eventually went on to be dominant in Grand Am. Restrictions loomed overhead and cost Team Mustang a Championship. The Boss did win 6 with Tiger Racing (RIP PAUL) and maybe another win with another team. Set an SCCA record held by PJ set in 1970 in his Boss 302. The GT won the T2 Championship and Run-Offs.... All brought on by the '05-'09 success...

On the Camaro side, they were following Ford's "How To" book. Chevy needed a Mustang GTR, they made the SSX. They started off with heavily modified Camaro's in GS and a tube framed car with a pop bottle body. They put in the time they needed to develop a proper OEM racer. From '09-'13... I suspected the 2014 z28 would be based off of the Z/28.R. I only assumed they would follow in the Mustangs footsteps. They didn't have the Championships the Mustang did, nor the wins. It only just recently finished 2nd overall... I expected a Z/28 created in the spirit of the original, or even in the image of the Boss. This should have been their change over season. It wasn't... In fact, it has gotten worse.

What I would have liked to seen was the Z/28.R, near OEM and an IMSA restricted 5.5 liter LS7. That very unique 5.5 LS7 would have been homologated to the 2014 Z/28, a real Z/28.R. It would have been really cool. Camaro fans would have went nuts...

 

[thePill]

Class rules were updated March 7th. The LS7 now has a 75mm restriction and rev limit dropped by 600rpm to 6300rpm. The LS7 is probably around 475hp now...

 

[thePill]

Welding: It never occurred to me that all OEM cars are iCar compliant. The stitch weld technique is standard, continuous welds are not practiced. The iCar standard is 4inches, that is the longest weld allowed (iCar certification as well). Stitch welding is a heat management technique. A continuous bead creates a larger heat affected zone and higher temperatures at the seam. Heat weakens the area surrounding the bead and too much heat over an extended period of time will warp the metal. The "seam welded" Ford advertises is just to assure the customer it has a full shell and is not a tube chassis. Seam welding simply meaning welded at the seams. There are types of welds such as a lap weld, butt-weld... all in which are done at the seams. Factory spot welds are another popular technique used today and is common practice. The 2015 Mustang will likely be Laser Welded, this makes everything above obsolete.

Sorry I didn't quote you directly, I'm tryin to keep the page scrolling to a minimum.

Z/28.R: I feel any alteration to the OEM panels is a no-go for that class. It has carbon fiber exterior and changes like that are major ones. Pratt Miller components under pin the entire car as well. GM Performance parts would have been a more suitable replacement I feel, when improvements are needed. I wouldn't want Steeda parts on the GT in factory racing, I hate that this occurs and was hoping the Z/28.R was the end. I seen the Sue-Bee and Chally drop out, I thought the car was going to be near OEM. What bothers me the most is the distance between the factory 2014 z28 and the Z/28.R. They are painfully different, it goes beyond glass, panels and brakes. It was everything the z28 wasn't. It was a move in the wrong direction and one I think some Camaro fans were ashamed of. There absolutely has to be some questioning and doubts about the 5th gens effectiveness in road racing. The use of 7 liters in this class is comical... They should have developed the car from the Continental Tire Challenge car. The front runners in that class have reverse engineered the OEM car from the GS vehicle. The suspension, braking systems, engine and tune, transmission (from the GT500 in the Boss's case), the body is untouched, factory glass... All the OEM parts were designed from those components with the exception of sponsor changes. They are as close as any Pro class gets except for maybe SCCA T2. The z28 lost everything from factory to race, it also came first before the race car. You need to develope the car first and THEN get it homologated.

The 5.5 LS7: No, ya' see... Your still thinking the OEM car comes first... It shouldn't, only in the Camaro's case. ALMS/IMSA mandated that the C6 limit the displacement of the LS7. This was done at the request of Porsche and maybe a few other manufacturers. The complaint was similar to the one I'm posting here. Why do you need 7 liters in this class? Of course, the displacement was reduced from 7 liters to 5.5. The C6 remained competitive even with the reduction of cubic inches (can't remember what the CI was). I thought it was great and I bet it could spin a higher RPM and probably had similar power levels once the old 7 liter restrictions were removed. A smaller, non-restricted displacement engine ran better than a restricted 427.

...this brings me to my point. Initially, I did see some complaints on C5 about the LS7 vs. the GS classes powertrains. They are valid questions, never answered...

They wanted a high revving, smaller displacement V8 that was not only Z/28 specific BUT, solely created to appease certain class (or organizations) rules. Like the original right? Remember that "heritage" that was talked about? That was it... The Chevy 302 was specifically built to comply with SCCA Trans Am class regulation. It was a smaller, higher revving V8 engine not only Z/28 specific but developed in racing, for racing by race car drivers and engineers. To comply with class rules, the SCCA mandated Chevy offer the Z/28 to the public.

I know an LS7.R would be expensive, perhaps... Perhaps no more expensive than an LS7 since the R&D was done during the season. Camaro fans would have went INSANE for the car.

...a 1LE with a 5.5 liter LS7.R and Pratt Miller based suspension components and braking system? It would have been $10,000 cheaper right off the bat AND, the Z/28.R would have been near OEM.

///End///

 

[Stuntman]

This seems on spot with my understanding of stitch and seam welding:

http://www.vista-industrial.com/blog/stitch-welding-vs-seam-welding/

 

[thePill]

Yeah, that is basically it. You won't see a chassis stitch welded unless the stitches are gradually filled in. Moving from one bead to the other, giving the metal time to cool. I also consider a lap weld a seam weld along with the butt-weld and fillet. Any time you join two mating surfaces together, it's a seam. Once you get under the exterior panels, spot welds are replaced by stitch welds that are joined. Continuious welds are not used since heat is an issue on chassis/safety structures.

The iCar maximum weld length for OEM vehicles is 4 inches. It's been awhile but I believe the coupons were only 4 inches. There is an iCar bead gauge that measures the bead lenght, bead height and bead penetration. On most panels (safety structure included), Continuious welding causes major distortion. It's almost impossible to weld like that and get good results.

Disclaimer: I also have degrees in Collision, Refinishing, Custom Street Rod and Advanced Metal Fabrication

ICAR Certified and eligible for 40 ICAR points. I have not selected my 10 CDs yet (All testing complete, $300-500 per point)

MIG, TIG and Gas for both Steel and Aluminum.

 

[Pablo GT350]

I had already predetermined that you were an idiot far before your OEM statement. You don't know where the LS7 came from. That is the spirit of the entire topic...

...how you came in hear, unarmed with the basics. Misinformation and uninformed, that was your first two post buddy.

Wow thats harsh You might be correct in your assessment but I'm willing to cut him a bit of slack.
LS7 or LT1 either way its a bull in a china closet. My theory is that the Z28 is marketing and business genius. GM had two thousand LS7's sitting in a warehouse. Gee how can we get rid of these. Genius.:(

 

[thePill]

Wow thats harsh You might be correct in your assessment but I'm willing to cut him a bit of slack.
LS7 or LT1 either way its a bull in a china closet. My theory is that the Z28 is marketing and business genius. GM had two thousand LS7's sitting in a warehouse. Gee how can we get rid of these. Genius.:(

I can be very harsh but try to reflect of the individual I'm in a debate with. I used this method during my Law Enforcement career...

I was under the impression GM Performance was responsible for the LS7.R. I'm sure there were not many built but, it would have been very cool. The 5.5 was just as dominating as the 7 liter. I think Corvette became even more productive with the new engine. The issue would be with the fuel economy testing.

 

[Pablo GT350]

The mpg's the LT1 gets are amazing. Its the rear end that stops me from getting a C7.
That, and I don't own any gold chains:doh:

 

[thePill]

The mpg's the LT1 gets are amazing. Its the rear end that stops me from getting a C7.
That, and I don't own any gold chains:doh:

I was referring to the C6 Corvette in ALMS, i do agree on the LT1 though. When the C6 Z06 was made to reduce the 7 liter to 5.5, the Corvette continued pressuring Porsche AND, I think they finally won the 24 hours of Le Mans... I would have to check.

I like the C7's rear, it is a little big compared to the rest of the car but that's my only complaint. I didn't like the 5th gen Camaro's big ol' Betty Boop, the '14 refresh made matters worse.

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