GT350 vs. Z/28

[908ssp]

Right Stuntman I think the proper quote should be the 2015 is faster than the 302...street car.

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[FATTBoss]

First I've heard that the Gt is quicker than the 302S. I thought the reports were quicker than the 302 Laguna Seca. I find it hard to believe that even with R compounds a 3,700 lb street car could be quicker than a 3,300 pound race car.

 

[thePill]

If rumors are true, that was brought up the same time the GT vs. LS was. I've only heard it once. If they continue using Mazda Raceway and the 1.39.5 LS time, R rubber would get you close. Unless the GT had R Rubber on it for the LS comparison.

I could see maybe a second or two off that 1.39.5. That's Z06 territory though, 1:36-1:37... A Boss 302S is close to that. R's run 1:35-1:36 at 3400-3500lbs. Not much weight difference once seats are equipped.

I highly doubt a z28 can outrun a Z06 at Laguna. It might be close, but not faster than a Z06. There's a 3 second gap between a Z06 and Boss LS. It gets pretty stuffy between those times.

It's also worth noting, Ford actually used Boss 302S #98 to bench the '15 from. There are pics in here somewhere.

 

[FATTBoss]

I'm not convinced your photo proves anything other than a 302S and a '15 GT were on track at the same time. I can see that a new GT can best the 302 LS time. The new car has a better suspension, slightly more weight, and HP is probably equivilent to the Roadrunner powerplant. The new motor most likely also betters the torque numbers as well, which will help off corner acceleration.

The LS used 60 treadwear Pirellis, and tires are always improving. So a new set of 200 or so TW tires may offer better grip, or the new suspension just uses the available contact patch better. I still don't see the street version beating the race cars without using race rubber and shedding some pounds.

 

[w3rkn]

I'm not convinced your photo proves anything other than a 302S and a '15 GT were on track at the same time. I can see that a new GT can best the 302 LS time. The new car has a better suspension, slightly more weight, and HP is probably equivilent to the Roadrunner powerplant. The new motor most likely also betters the torque numbers as well, which will help off corner acceleration.

The LS used 60 treadwear Pirellis, and tires are always improving. So a new set of 200 or so TW tires may offer better grip, or the new suspension just uses the available contact patch better. I still don't see the street version beating the race cars without using race rubber and shedding some pounds.

Kinematics & engineering.

Lower center of gravity means each tires is working less, therefore has more performance to offer. Etc..

A refined everything, makes up for time in everything. One thing isn't going to make the s550 great... all of it's greatness, is..

 

[Norm Peterson]

Kinematics & engineering.

Lower center of gravity means each tires is working less, therefore has more performance to offer. Etc.

It's one thing to acknowledge these effects, but you have to put a few numbers on them before they mean very much.

One inch lowering of the CG is only worth about a 5% reduction in lateral load transfer, which in turn is worth somewhat less in terms of lateral grip/lateral acceleration and less still in terms of cornering speed. Beyond that there are suspension geometry consequences that generally aren't beneficial (and force supporting modification).

I'm not saying that CG lowering is of negligible or insignificant value, just trying to keep people from thinking that in and of itself it's somehow magically worth more than it really is.


Norm

 

[FATTBoss]

Stuntman, I agree that the tires on the LS could be considered an R compound, it's just that I think of a pure race tire when I think of an R compound. I have Toyo R888 on my car, and I don't think of them as R comps, but many do. I also have some nice little Continental slicks. Those are R compounds! Before anyone asks, I haven't had a chance to track my car on either set this year, so I can't give any feedback on them yet.

Norm, I agree with you. There are many little improvements made, and how much the car gets from them remains to be seen. I don't think it will be too hard to eclipse the performance of the Boss LS or "regular" Boss, as GM is doing it with the 1LE with just some suspension tweaks, tires (not even an R compound), and a little steeper gear.

 

[Stuntman]

R-Compound tires are a bit of a vague and cheater category. However most widely accept them to be treaded DOT-approved tires that typically have more of a street tire construction and more of a racing compound. This is how Hoosier defines them:

http://www.hoosierdirect.com/What_is_an_R-comp_Tire_.html

Most would call RA-1, R888, NT01, Ventus TD, Pilot Sport Cup, Trofeo & Trofeo R, and A048s as "R-comps" while tires like R1, R6, A6, Ventus Z214, etc.. are often referred to as DOT-Approved racing slicks with two circumferential grooves. However the Grand-Am Continental racing slicks, A005, Michelins, etc... are 'true' racing slicks.

 

[DivineStrike]

I'm gonna have to vote that the HiPO stang is shooting past the likes of the M3/M4 and I'm sure their game plan is to topple the z/28 and maybe gain on the likes of the Godzilla. Not sure how much you should rely on a motortrend article but the z/28 beat the gtr around Barber. So if the next mustang released will be the top dog HiPo variant, than we can expect really great things from the GT350.

Of course we still don't know what tier the GT350 will be. Will it be a Boss replacement or a GT500 replacement. Or will it be a full on "track" car like the z/28.




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[likeaboss]

I believe Ford will offer different versions of the GT350. One with all the bells and whistles and one "race" version stripped down, more Z/28 style.

 

[w3rkn]

It's one thing to acknowledge these effects, but you have to put a few numbers on them before they mean very much.

One inch lowering of the CG is only worth about a 5% reduction in lateral load transfer, which in turn is worth somewhat less in terms of lateral grip/lateral acceleration and less still in terms of cornering speed. Beyond that there are suspension geometry consequences that generally aren't beneficial (and force supporting modification).

I'm not saying that CG lowering is of negligible or insignificant value, just trying to keep people from thinking that in and of itself it's somehow magically worth more than it really is.


Norm

Lower center of gravity & etc.. <-- meaning just one of the MANY ways the s550 could be better..

Aero..
Width of tires..
cooling...
etc...

I was offering FATT boss just one possibility to open his mind...

 

[EXP Jawa]

I believe Ford will offer different versions of the GT350. One with all the bells and whistles and one "race" version stripped down and more Z/28 style.

I expect that you're right. That may well partially account for the variations that we've seen in test mules also. I guess we'll see...

 

[thePill]

I'm not convinced your photo proves anything other than a 302S and a '15 GT were on track at the same time. I can see that a new GT can best the 302 LS time. The new car has a better suspension, slightly more weight, and HP is probably equivilent to the Roadrunner powerplant. The new motor most likely also betters the torque numbers as well, which will help off corner acceleration.

The LS used 60 treadwear Pirellis, and tires are always improving. So a new set of 200 or so TW tires may offer better grip, or the new suspension just uses the available contact patch better. I still don't see the street version beating the race cars without using race rubber and shedding some pounds.

At the time this pic was taken, I highly doubt standard equipment was finalized. It could have been the lightest configuration available. One thing is certain, Ford put the two cars together, most likely for performance benchmark. I haven't seen any spy pics from Laguna of either S550 so, it's just someone talking. Can a Boss 302LS run a 1:37 at Laguna with better tires? It probably could, even at 3650lbs. Could a new GT be faster? Cotter says it is...

At those levels, quickly encroaching on Z06 performance, I have no idea what a GT350R would be capable of. I think a 1:37 GT is far beyond most drivers ability. For $35,000, and being class compliant, it's as much as you can ask for.

Once all the standard stuff is removed for racing, it will be a very competive car. Far lighter than a Boss 302S.

 

[scottpe]

I believe Ford will offer different versions of the GT350. One with all the bells and whistles and one "race" version stripped down, more Z/28 style.

That theory does make a lot of sense. There is certainly some precedence for such an approach.

I really hope that's the case, for everyone's sake.

Of course the reality has set in for me that even if this thing is priced around $50K as many hope, there will be zero chance of getting one at anything below MSRP, and more than likely they will be 'market adjusted' for quite some time. I don't want to wait that long. I could probably happily drive a GT with some strategic mods for a couple years until the prices come down to earth and then weigh my options. By then I suspect there will be 2-3 different hi-po variants to choose from.

 

[thePill]

Yeah, it's assuming a good R tire can get you 2 seconds at that track. Tires can get you a nice chunk, as we seen a Boss 302 w/Nitto's chase down a Spec'd 302S. It's tough to beat a Boss, and tires do a car good.

There are also different levels of 302S. The ones in GTS rival the 302R1. The ones in T1 are GSR/Z06 competitive.

Once a '15 GT is stripped to a '14 z28's level, there could be 300-400lbs between them.

For the cost, $35,000 vs. $80,000... I'd take a GT.
Disposability, dime a dozen GT wins hands down.
Class Compliance: GT with both standard equipment and Performance Pack.
Weight, the GT is lighter and has even more potential to go even lower.
Output: the GT's 420+ and 390tq will be hard to beat 505/480.

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