GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

Whoa Whoa!!! All very valid points and theory. This is far too advanced to explain here. Indeed, it isn't too difficult to learn and practice...

Although, here on a forum, with no visual aids, real mathematical exercises and now, 3D motion rendering, this is not a good platform to instruct. The purpose of the chassis will alter theory and practice to a large degree.

Not many "Rule of Thumb" rules in this area. Without that, a tech is just limited to critical thinking. Yet RC does indeed move in an arc as it moves with your Swing Arm/suspension movement. At the same time, this static point experiences the same jarring movement a tire does to some degree. If both sides of the suspension is loaded equally (not cornering), it shoots up....



Not sure if any of this helps the z28 become a respectable track name. This is exhausting during the week let alone here. I'd rather watch Jim load his z28 up to 4300lbs to match his stock RWHP in a P:W Class...

Classic!!!!

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[Norm Peterson]

A single point in time, will plot a arc through it (ie: plane).

Make that a closed shape within a plane, consider what happens during both roll and heave, and I'll agree. There are limits to the maximum RC migrations possible once you've more or less fixed a few points in space and held element lengths essentially constant. A plane is infinite.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

Make that a closed shape within a plane, consider what happens during both roll and heave, and I'll agree. There are limits to the maximum RC migrations possible once you're more or less fixed a few points in space and held element lengths essentially constant. A plane is infinite.


Norm

Not a point, but an axis..

 

[Norm Peterson]

Axis??? For a geo roll center???

An axis is a line, please describe it, as in what two points define it.




Why do I feel like I've got the tail of a snake in one hand, the hammer I'm trying to hit it in the head with in the other, and it's nowhere near dead yet?


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

Axis??? For a geo roll center???

An axis is a line, please describe it, as in what two points define it.




Why do I feel like I've got the tail of a snake in one hand, the hammer I'm trying to hit it in the head with in the other, and it's nowhere near dead yet?


Norm

Yes, it is a roll center.. go look at the previous diag. You can clearly see the axis... that it rolls on. Even though it moves, it still rolls on it's own axis.

right? :shrug:

 

[Norm Peterson]

I see nothing of the sort in the Fiero pictures, which is what I see as being "previous". The bottom of chassis @ midpoint appears to be held at 125mm and no RC migration is shown. You may be referring to another picture, and I'm not going to keep guessing at what you might be thinking. Exercise in futility.

You're going to have to grab the picture you are talking about and mark it up to show what you're imagining here.


Norm

 

[w3rkn]

I see nothing of the sort in the Fiero pictures, which is what I see as being "previous". The bottom of chassis @ midpoint appears to be held at 125mm and no RC migration is shown. You may be referring to another picture, and I'm not going to keep guessing at what you might be thinking. Exercise in futility.

You're going to have to grab the picture you are talking about and mark it up to show what you're imagining here.


Norm

So nothing rolls, on the roll center..?

 

[Norm Peterson]

No, not exactly.

The FVICs that the usual kinematic model uses to locate the RC are approximations themselves (hint: suspension pivots can and frequently do have rotational as well as translational stiffnesses), motion ratios do not remain constant and do not have to be symmetrical (extension vs compression), etc.


Norm

 

[thePill]

Dear Camaro5,

I enjoyed your front page article on the STOCK 1LE running a 1:56 at Fontana besting Z06's, ZL1's, 911's and all kinds of other high end sports cars.

But... as it is with all your Camaro biased reporting, you missed one tiny little detail.

The 1LE on that list was recorded at 510hp. It's literally right on the chart....

Let me double check...

Edit: it had 440hp while the other 1LE had 510. Stock enough I guess but definitely showing some desperation by throwing that "race car" term around.

 

[mustangletback]

Dear Camaro5,

I enjoyed your front page article on the STOCK 1LE running a 1:56 at Fontana besting Z06's, ZL1's, 911's and all kinds of other high end sports cars.

But... as it is with all your Camaro biased reporting, you missed one tiny little detail.

The 1LE on that list was recorded at 510hp. It's literally right on the chart....

Let me double check...

Edit: it had 440hp while the other 1LE had 510. Stock enough I guess but definitely showing some desperation by throwing that "race car" term around.

what gets me,is they try to pass it off as stock.the 1le doesnt come with 440,or 510hp from the factory.Just goes to show,how pathetic the Gigantic Mistake is.:lol:

 

[shawndean22]

You can not comapre these cars, as the gt350 is not even out yet and wont be out for a long time. The 2015 mustang is not even out and track tested.....

 

[FATTBoss]

You can not comapre these cars, as the gt350 is not even out yet and wont be out for a long time. The 2015 mustang is not even out and track tested.....

Somewhere back around Page 1 this thread changed course into just plain BS. The Z/28 is an impressive car that lays down some good numbers and the new Mustang had better be damn good to beat it.

Most of us agree that the new Mustang GT will out-perform the S197 Boss 302, but the jury is out on the performance of the rumored GT350.

 

[thePill]

These two vehicles will be compared... A new platform will be a huge advantage. The z28 is a parts bin car with expensive band aids. This drives the cost through the roof and is revisited on the customer. Most of those band aids ultimately caused some conflict with organized Motorsport classes as well.

Time for a slightly clean sheet Alpha platform. There are some disadvantages when using a loaner platform though. The Mustang is just set to be a better car...

Edit: Honestly, the z28 is more of a Super Tourer now. The GT350 will hopefully be tailored to a competitive Grand Tourer. I think the GT500 will be more of a Super Tourer so... This might not be a good comparison realistically.

 

[Trackaholic]

These two vehicles will be compared... A new platform will be a huge advantage. The z28 is a parts bin car with expensive band aids. This drives the cost through the roof and is revisited on the customer. Most of those band aids ultimately caused some conflict with organized Motorsport classes as well.

Time for a slightly clean sheet Alpha platform. There are some disadvantages when using a loaner platform though. The Mustang is just set to be a better car...

Edit: Honestly, the z28 is more of a Super Tourer now. The GT350 will hopefully be tailored to a competitive Grand Tourer. I think the GT500 will be more of a Super Tourer so... This might not be a good comparison realistically.

Wouldn't the ZL1 be more of a Super Tourer? Maybe I should start by asking what a Super Tourer is? To me, that would be something even more about high speeds than a Grand Tourer. The track focused nature of the Z/28 would move it away from that category IMO, but maybe my idea of a Super Tourer is different.

-T

 

[FATTBoss]

Personally I don't think Ford should place artificial limits on the new GT350 by building it to a specific rule package for racing like they did with the Boss. Or, if they do build it with an eye to competition, then a higher performance package street edition should be created to target the GM competition.

Buildiong the car within the confines of say the Continental Tire series will ultimately fail to exceed the performance of the Z/28, which as many who know, has had most of its trick stuff removed, and bears little resemblance to the actual street car.

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