GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

$49,995!!!! That is a lot of car for under $50 grand.

People are buying them regardless of MSRP's not being provided and no details on the car.

Other good news, I heard the GT350 will be sold in Europe. If that's true, the lower hood passed EU Pedestrian Crash test. We will see the GT begin to resemble the GT350 in a few years.

It has a very, very athletic and thoroughbred... everything...

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[Gudz2015]

526hp 429tq not bad. Stock for stock it could come down to a good driver's race.

 

[Katastrophe]

526hp 429tq not bad. Stock for stock it could come down to a good driver's race.

Yup. The engines are basically even. One has more Hp, the other more Tq. Weight is going to the be the deciding factor for these cars, I think. From a "numbers" side of things, I mean. Both chassis/tire/suspension seem to be on par, too...so it could get interesting during a comparison.

 

[thePill]

My output was slightly off from the official ratings. The last figure I heard was 531hp and 418tq.

Some of the FPC's torque deficit was offset somehow. I'm surprised the gap was closed that much.


Not getting 550 until DI is ready and it will likely not be just direct injection. Port/Direct Injection is Fords next big thing. I think the 5.2 will be reduced to 5.0 when PDI is used. DI typically sees a 25-35hp increase. This new PDI will likely see a bit more. I'd say 550-570 is doable with DI or PDI. The slight displacement decrease should account for a little loss but may pick up a few more RPM.

The engine is far too powerful for the Boss 302's old classes.


How 'bout them sales?!?!

 

[Falc'man]

If Chevrolet don't come up with a package that is comparable on price then they've lost the battle before it's started.

What's in the pipeline in terms of Chev engines? We know they can outmuscle Voodoo thanks to cubes - the LT1 does that already up to about 5000rpm - but are their any whispers on an atmo replacement for the LS7?

Pill, I don't think any kind of trick injection is required for that power level... but sounds interesting nonetheless. What's your estimate on when a replacement for the Z/28 is due? Late 2016, early '17?

 

[thePill]

If Chevrolet don't come up with a package that is comparable on price then they've lost the battle before it's started.

What's in the pipeline in terms of Chev engines? We know they can outmuscle Voodoo thanks to cubes - the LT1 does that already up to about 5000rpm - but are their any whispers on an atmo replacement for the LS7?

Pill, I don't think any kind of trick injection is required for that power level... but sounds interesting nonetheless. What's your estimate on when a replacement for the Z/28 is due? Late 2016, early '17?

Man, I have been digging. I can't find a suitable LS7 replacement. This time around, they can't get big cubes to pass emissions. The LT1 is their only option. I feel that doing zero R&D on a DOHC V8 will come back to haunt them. The LT1 cost $820,000,000 to develop, a DOHC today would be two or three times that. Everyone else was smart, they adopted in the 90's and troubleshot the Modular design over two decades.

I am anxious to see the non-AFM LT1's MPG rating in the manual Camaro. It will tell me a little about the LT1 potential. I have a feeling the z28 will take some time off after being raped. They will use the LT4 in a ZL1. I hope they don't F' it up like the Z06 and ZR1. Just call it a ZR1 and work on a competitive engine.



For our Mustang, I think they will work out the DI issues. The main issue being valve build up and the valves wouldn't seat correctly. Some say 30,000 miles, some say more but, appearently it does happen.

I do feel the 5.0's bore will be used again (or closer to square than the Yote). Of course, this will likely be after DI/PDI. They tested with DI so, DI will fit the Yote/Voodoo. I just feel that 550HP is not needed at the current Mustang class level. 526hp is too much so there really is no need...

There is some rumors that the very first Voodoo made 500hp in its first run. They tuned and developed more power as they went. There is also talk that an aggressive tuned GT350 was closer to Ferarri output BUT, torque suffered. They used short runners to increase torque to 429.

I feel that DI/PDI will increase HP and TQ by 25-35hp/30-40tq (DI) and 35-45hp/50tq. The drop to 5.0 will lose 15-20hp/10-15tq. It is only 0.2 larger than the 5.0, actuall cc's are 5.16x so it's an actual 5.2. My initial findings said it was 5.14x which would have been a 5.1.




I think the game will become much more difficult this Gen. The Mustang is more Sports Car now. The Mustang is getting specific R&D and equipment. The LT4 will be enough for a Supercharged 5.0 at 640hp/640tq but, the Twin Turbo 5.0 is likely over 800hp.

I doubt there will ever be a real GT350 answer. In fact, I'm afraid the V6 and SS are its best chances at a winning comparison.

They need a DOHC V8 bad.......

 

[Falc'man]

The 500hp with first prototype was info directly from Ford, not a rumour. After a week's tuning they got 500hp. From that I gather they have access to more power if it's needed. There's just no way they'd show their hand without seeing what Chev brings to the table...

You are right, 526hp is more than plenty, but when rep is on the line logic sometimes takes a back seat.

 

[thePill]

The 500hp with first prototype was info directly from Ford, not a rumour. After a week's tuning they got 500hp. From that I gather they have access to more power if it's needed. There's just no way they'd show their hand without seeing what Chev brings to the table...

You are right, 526hp is more than plenty, but when rep is on the line logic sometimes takes a back seat.

Kool, I wasn't aware they gave out those details. I did hear they tampered with DI.

I compare the Voodoo to the Ferrarri 458's 4.5 FPC V8. It makes 562hp@9000 and 398tq@6000. They achieved that with the use of direct injection too but, it is only 4.5 liters. It's very impressive...

The Voodoo is pushing it with 526hp/429tq in the Boss 302 classes. Something will need to be done. I think there will be a GT migration eventually in the Rolex Series. The Mustang is getting that good.

The Voodoo has 36hp less than the F136 4.5 V8. Although, it does have 31tq more than the F136... All without DI too...

Man, we are looking at 555hp/444tq easy. Could be up to 570hp and 480tq with Port and Direct Injection. I think a DI 5.0 with 555/444 will be offered in '17-'18. They could just stay at 525-530 and get that torque up to 450-475.

It's just making power...

 

[thePill]

Something to keep in mind...

Someone at Ford spoke to the media when the R was released. According to FoMoCo, the GT350R had approximately the same Power to Weight ratio of the 911 GT3 (before its power increase). That PtW ratio was 6.63 if I remember correctly...


That would mean at 526hp, the vehicle would be projected to weigh around 3500lbs even. I'm thinking the GT350TP lost some additional weight and could be the reason a $1500 dollar fluctuation went from R Package to Track Package.

Regardless, a 3500lbs, 526hp Mustang sounds ridiculous... Hopefully that Power to Weight ratio held up.


Edit: Disregard that... The 2014 911 GT3 had 469hp @ 3153lbs.

That is 6.72 PtW... That would put a 526hp GT350R at 3535lbs. Still not bad.... 170lbs lighter than a GT.


Edit #2: If Germany has a Premium GTPP weighing 3639lbs (about 3650lbs full), I can see a GT350TP being in there. 3650-3670lbs. The Base could be a few pounds less...

 

[thePill]

Unless you went off the grid this week, you now know that the 5.2-liter engine in the forthcoming 2015 Shelby GT350 will serve up 526 horsepower and 429 lb-ft of torque from the end of its Flat-Plane Crankshaft. Of course, you know that. The Internet already told you. In fact, we were providing live-coverage from Ford’s invitation-only media event on the GT350’s powertrain. And, yeah, we previewed a lot of this stuff right after the North American International Auto Show last January.

By now you are well-aware that the 5.2-liter Voodoo engine that motivates the 2015 Shelby GT350 produces 526 horsepower at 7,500 rpm and 429 lb-ft of torque at 4,750 rpm. Described as an all-new engine, this powerplant is a cousin of the Coyote and Boss 5.0-liter engines, but features the a new block, the heralded Flat-Plane Crank, new CNC-ported cylinder heads, a high-flow intake manifold, an 87mm throttle body, and a high-flowing exhaust fronted by fabricated stainless-steel short-tube headers.
While SVTP and every other automotive outlet have already shared the obvious details, we actually had boots on the ground in Allen Park, Michigan. Our team was able to spend some time speaking with the engineers that created this internal-combustion masterpiece (see the full presentation video at the end of this story), and after surviving the initial rush of information, we were able to sift through our notes and uncover a few more of those technical details that we know loyal SVTP Front Page readers with appreciate about this engine.

“Our mission was to create the ultimate engine for a track going Mustang. That meant light weight, high specific power, a broad torque curve, and amazing throttle response,” Jamal Hameedi, Ford Performance Chief Engineer, said. “Hopefully we came up with something that will live up to the legend of the original 289, which was an amazing engine.”

Certainly the 289 was an impressive performer for its day, but it was born of a time when engineers had to borrow parts from other programs, modify parts off the shelf or wait for prototypes to be created. The FPC 5.2-liter, codenamed Voodoo, was truly born from the modern magic of computer-aided design.

Unassuming on the exterior, the composite intake that feeds the new engine features runners than are longer and feature larger cross-sections than even the vaunted Boss 302 intake. While the runners are similar in length to those found in the 2015 Mustang GT intake, but they are clearly much larger and flow lots more air. The 87mm throttle body is the largest ever fitted to a Ford and it inhales through a new open-element air filter.
Unassuming on the exterior, the composite intake that feeds the new engine features runners than are longer and feature larger cross-sections than even the vaunted Boss 302 intake. While the runners are similar in length to those found in the 2015 Mustang GT intake, but they are clearly much larger and flow lots more air. The 87mm throttle body is the largest ever fitted to a Ford and it inhales through a new open-element air filter.
“Using CAE for complete design of this engine allowed us to deliver this engine in time. The first prototype engine that we produced made of 500 horsepower within one week of getting it on the dyno,” Ford V8 Intake Combustion and Exhaust Technical Specialist Adam Christian explained.

Yes, instead of taking parts off the shelf and trying them, the entire engine was designed inside a computer. The iterative testing took place in the virtual world, and the results of that testing were turned into the parts that created that first engine. And, while the timeline was short for an engine of this magnitude, the project actually got underway about three years ago after the release of the vaunted RoadRunner engine that powered the Boss 302.

While the cylinder heads feature wider valve spacing, larger valves, and high-flowing CNC ports, they were actually machined for reduced weight. Obvious examples of this diet are the blind holes machined under the intake ports. Optimized with computer fluid dynamics, these CNC-ported ported heads are completely new, and machined on a special assembly line. We believe they might bolt onto a Coyote block, but even if they do, the smaller bores would shroud the valves and restrict them from reaching their full flow potential.
While the cylinder heads feature wider valve spacing, larger valves, and high-flowing CNC ports, they were actually machined for reduced weight. Obvious examples of this diet are the blind holes machined under the intake ports. Optimized with computer fluid dynamics, these CNC-ported ported heads are completely new, and machined on a special assembly line. We believe they might bolt onto a Coyote block, but even if they do, the smaller bores would shroud the valves and restrict them from reaching their full flow potential. Moreover, these cams are obviously designed to work with the FPC firing order.

“Around the time that the Boss came out and we were all really enjoying our success at about 88 horsepower per liter, that was the time that Ford Performance came to us and said, “Well, that was nice, but we’d really like to have 100 horsepower per liter and we’d really like to have 500 horsepower, and we’d like to spin over 8,000 rpm,’” Adam said. “That’s actually a tough pill for an engineer to swallow, because it basically says, ‘Nice try, but I’d like for you to do even better.’”

The result of Jamal setting the 500 naturally aspirated horsepower target is an engine that is clearly the cousin of the Coyote and RoadRunner 5.0-liter engines. However, the Voodoo 5.2 is said to be something else all together. And, it is definitely better.

“This is a new engine; An all-new engine. Top to bottom throughout the internals, everything that contributes to that power and speed is new.” Engine Program Supervisor Eric Ladner said. “…At first glance people may think it looks like a 5.0-liter. Of course, it is sitting in a similar package, but it’s far from it.”

While poring over the 5.2 parts, we noticed an almost imperceptible dip on the cam lobe as it transitions on and off the ramp (the shiny spot in this photo). While it’s not unique to the Voodoo engine, this is called Negative Radius of Curvature, and it is part of the reason Ford can be so aggressive with its cam profiles. While they would love to have square lift profile, that’s not possible, and the NRC help ease the lift transition, kind of like loading your suspension with the brakes to ease the jolt of a speed bump.
While poring over the 5.2 parts, we noticed an almost imperceptible dip on the cam lobe as it transitions on and off the ramp (the shiny spots on the lobes in the lower left in this photo). While it’s not unique to the Voodoo engine, this is called Negative Radius of Curvature, and it is part of the reason Ford can be so aggressive with its cam profiles. While engineers would love to have square lift profile, that’s not possible, and the NRC helps ease the lift transition, kind of like loading your suspension with the brakes to ease the jolt of a speed bump.

Beyond another .2 liters of displacement, what sets this engine apart from its predecessors is the implementation of Ford’s patented Plasma Transfer Wire Arc coating in the cylinder bores. Previously implemented on the 5.8-liter Trinity engine in the 2013-2014 Shelby GT500, this process allows for a bigger bore in compact package. The coating is much thinner and lighter than a traditional sleeve, so you can pack in the displacement without packing on the pounds.

The valvetrain looks quite similar to the other engines in the 5.0-liter engine family, but the Voodoo valves are not only 1mm larger than the 2015 Coyote valves, but they are set wider apart to unshroud them for flow. The rocker arms and beehive valve springs are also similar to 5.0 protocols, but optimized for the high-revving 5.2.

The valvetrain looks quite similar to the other engines in the 5.0-liter engine family, but the Voodoo valves are not only 1mm larger than the 2015 Coyote valves, but they are set wider apart to unshroud them for flow. The rocker arms and beehive valve springs are also similar to 5.0 protocols, but optimized for the high-revving 5.2.

The larger 94mm bore created by the PTWA coating not only helps the 5.2-liter engine gain that extra displacement, but it enabled Ford engineers to spread out the valves in the all-new cylinder heads. Spacing them out allowed for valves that are 1mm larger in diameter than the 33.1mm intake and 32.8 exhaust valves found in the 2015 5.0-liter engine. Because the larger bore doesn’t shroud the larger valves, they can really breathe.

Apparently bigger valves want bigger cams, and who doesn’t want bigger cams? As such, this engine’s bumpsticks exceed the 13mm milestone set by the Boss 302 with a whopping 14 mm of lift.

“The valve likes to be lifted a certain amount in ratio to its diameter, so as you go up in diameter, you have to go up in lift if you really want to take full advantage. This engine is absolutely the high watermark for us. It’s 14 mm of lift on a Four-Valve head, which is pretty much unheard of,” Adam explained. “We are talking lift values that you would find in a Two-Valve application. So we are lifting the valves a lot at a high rate of speed with a maintenance-free hydraulic valvetrain. That’s one area we are very aggressive as a company with our valve-lift profiles.”

Obviously the combustion chambers are CNC machined, and thanks to a number of factors, Ford engineers were able to build a 12:1-compression engine that runs on 93-octane fuel all the way up until 8,250 rpm.
Obviously the combustion chambers are CNC machined, and thanks to a number of factors...

Of course, valve lift isn’t the only area where the team got aggressive. In setting the 500-horsepower target, Jamal told his engineers to “take the gloves off.” That led to the implementation of the vaunted Flat-Plane Crankshaft.

“Conventional V-8s have a firing order that’s mixed… Certain cylinders fire immediately after each other 90 degrees apart, one a bank. That presents a tuning problem for me, essentially. Each cylinder behaves differently, and they behave differently throughout the speed range,” Adam explained. “We put in the Flat-Plane Crank, and what that does is it makes all the cylinders behave the same. That makes my optimizations much easier. We can tune this engine to within an inch of its life for all cylinders. We don’t have to tune for the best breathing or the worst breathing cylinder. All geometries can be the same, so we can really tune this thing and get the acoustic resonances as high as possible.”

Mounted on the Flat-Plane Crankshaft at 180-degree angles, the lightweight rod and piston package in the 5.2-liter engine is built to withstand the higher inertial forces of an engine that tops out at 8,250 rpm. The rods are described as forged steel with a fracture-split cap, and the pistons are from Mahle.

Mounted on the Flat-Plane Crankshaft at 180-degree angles, the lightweight rod and piston package in the 5.2-liter engine is built to withstand the higher inertial forces of an engine that tops out at 8,250 rpm. The rods are described as forged steel with a fracture-split cap, and the pistons are from Mahle.

Optimized via computer modeling for Ford’s induction system, the crank in the 5.2-liter engine is gun-drilled to reduce its reciprocating weight. Flat-plane cranks are lighter than their traditional counterpart by nature, but Ford engineers say that working with the dual-mass flywheel and a smaller clutch, this gun-drilled crank accounts for only 15 percent of the engine’s rotational mass. Additionally, its hollow core is said to give up nothing in terms of durability.

Quite simply, the four-into-three-into-one short-tube headers on the Voodoo engine are works of art. They feature investment-cast stainless steel collectors with mandrel-bent stainless steel tubing. Constructed by our friends at Watson Engineering, these headers feed a free-flowing exhaust. “We went to an active exhaust system…” Adam Christian enthused. “The mufflers actually have active valves to lower the backpressure when we want peak performance. The exhaust losses, the backpressure of the system, is actually quite low—the lowest of anything I have worked on.”

Further maximizing the efficiency of this engine is the block the crank resides in. Not only does block feature the aforementioned PTWA cylinder bore liners, but the bores themselves are rounder. Ford is applying the PTWA liners in-house these days, and the company is also using the age-old race-engine process of deck-plate honing when the blocks are machined. By torquing head gasket and deck plate to the block to simulate the torque of the heads while the block is machined, the cylinders are rounder.

“When the engine is assembled the bores are as straight as they can be. What that allows us to do is to drop the ring tension,” Adam said. “So we can make the rings in the pistons ever so slightly springy because they don’t try to push as hard against the block to try and conform to a non-round bore. That reduces friction. Forty percent of all mechanical friction in an engine is in the rings themselves.”

Our tech expert Tob noticed that the headers are built with all TIG welds, with the exception of one MIG weld where two tubes joins together (shown at the top of this photo). There is also a support ring on the flange of the shortest tube, which helps strengthen the mating to withstand the different expansion and contraction rates of the various pipe lengths.
Clearly, Ford Performance engineers are squeezing every last drop of efficiency from the 5.2-liter engine. Not only did computer simulations help design an engine that was ready to go right away, but that same kind of computational horsepower helped them tune every aspect of the resultant hardware.

“We bring all that together and actually run millions of simulations to dial in the runner lengths, the diameters, the camshaft durations, and the camshaft phasing,” Adam said. “As you probably know, we have TiVCT on all of our engines. If you look at all the options that gives us for cam timing, that takes the 25-point rpm sweep that we typically run for our power pulls and turns it into 15,000 options for cam timing.”

You better save up for your oil change. To keep the 5.2-liter lubricated in the high-g world of the road course, Ford Performance engineers created an oil pan that integrates the dipstick tube, windage tray, and pickup tube into a voluminous one-piece unit. It is not only rugged, but 20 percent lighter than the pan on the 2015 GT. Moreover it houses 10 quarts of oil—two more quarts than the 5.0-liter pan.

They certainly dialed in all the variables quite well. The Voodoo engine has a broad, fat torque curve and produces over 100-horsepower per liter. When you consider the base price of the GT3500 comes in under $50,000, this Hummingbird flies in rare air from a performance-for-your-dollar standpoint.

“The whole 5.0-liter family of engines is incredibly knock tolerant compared to others, and it’s because of the work we have done in the combustion chamber and the piston top,” Adam concluded. “We are able to run at optimum spark timing at 12:1 compression on 93-octane pump gas with a port fuel injection system, which is quite rare.”

If you want even more detail on this rare-breed of engine, check out the in-person perspective on the engine media event over on our forum.

Sure the FPC is cool, but at first blush you might think the fillets on the crankshaft snout are under-cut, which could be a weakness. However, that’s not the case. Instead, Ford used a high-pressure process that forces a steel ball around the radius to groove the crank.

I'm beginning to believe the Voodoo may be on its way to standard in a few years. The heads are amazing, I do not belive they will return to the Coyote bore once I read that. If anything, the stroke will be reduced and it will lose some torque.

They said 90% of torque is available above 3700rpm (need to verify) and is a 10 quart engine. Very, very good.

 

[Erik427]

I'm beginning to believe the Voodoo may be on its way to standard in a few years. The heads are amazing, I do not belive they will return to the Coyote bore once I read that. If anything, the stroke will be reduced and it will lose some torque.

They said 90% of torque is available above 3700rpm (need to verify) and is a 10 quart engine. Very, very good.

I told you that the 5.2 bore allowed for greater valve spacing, larger valves and less valve shrouding.....now give me my due props.....lol.

 

[thePill]

I told you that the 5.2 bore allowed for greater valve spacing, larger valves and less valve shrouding.....now give me my due props.....lol.

Yeah, that's completely undeniable... It's very clear in this article as well as the pictures.

While reducing the bore is probably the cheapest option, I'd say a reduced crank stroke is more likely based on the work the heads had done.

How much torque is at stake reducing the stroke to reach exactly 5000cc's from 5165?

A Direct Injected Voodoo has the potential to be better than the F136 4.5. The max power should be pretty close and it makes more torque.

I would like to see them use DI/PDI as well as a stroke reduction to eliminate the GG Tax later on.

Direct injection helps torque, I'm wondering how much of a decrease in torque would be expected it they did move to a 5.0.

Priorty here is to maintain power levels at a minimum while eliminating the GG tax. 9000rpm would be nice and 90% of torque need to be available above 3200rpm.

Getting rid of the GG tax would offset any MSRP increases brought on by future performance upgrades. $1300 gets you a nice chunk of something fast in OEM standard.

It would give the first adopters a special 5.2 that nobody else has AND, the holdouts would truly get something new.

That is a decent position to be in...

You were spot on with the heads though Erik, they are truly unique.

 

[Erik427]

Yeah, that's completely undeniable... It's very clear in this article as well as the pictures.

While reducing the bore is probably the cheapest option, I'd say a reduced crank stroke is more likely based on the work the heads had done.

How much torque is at stake reducing the stroke to reach exactly 5000cc's from 5165?

A Direct Injected Voodoo has the potential to be better than the F136 4.5. The max power should be pretty close and it makes more torque.

I would like to see them use DI/PDI as well as a stroke reduction to eliminate the GG Tax later on.

Direct injection helps torque, I'm wondering how much of a decrease in torque would be expected it they did move to a 5.0.

Priorty here is to maintain power levels at a minimum while eliminating the GG tax. 9000rpm would be nice and 90% of torque need to be available above 3200rpm.

Getting rid of the GG tax would offset any MSRP increases brought on by future performance upgrades. $1300 gets you a nice chunk of something fast in OEM standard.

It would give the first adopters a special 5.2 that nobody else has AND, the holdouts would truly get something new.

That is a decent position to be in...

You were spot on with the heads though Erik, they are truly unique.

Now see if you can find out if they will interchange with a Coyote block. Or is the Voodo a completely new design.......I've done nothing but hit a dead end on this issue.

 

[thePill]

Now see if you can find out if they will interchange with a Coyote block. Or is the Voodo a completely new design.......I've done nothing but hit a dead end on this issue.

They said they look like they bolt up but the valves will hit the cylinder walls. The valves in the Voodoo were spread further apart so... while it will directly bolt up, it will not operate.

A shorter stroke is the only option...



Looking into this now, there is no Camaro answer to a FPC V8 GT350. A pushrod engine floats the valves without extensive valve train work. A DOHC is badly needed at GM. Every minute they don't invest in V8 OHC technology, they fall farther behind. They can't just pour on the displacement anymore, this will be a huge challenge for them.

If the Power to Weight figures were true, the GT350R could be just under 3550lbs. DI adds about 3-4lbs to the engine, a smaller crank will help a tiny bit... I would like to see them shed the GG Tax with a short stroke Voodoo (Voodoo Child) so they can make use of that $1300 elsewhere.

The Base GT350 could give the z28 some trouble. Eliminating shift points during a lap is a big deal.

 

[thePill]

Good call Erik!!! Man, lots to think about now.

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