GM is pulling back on EVs

[Vlad Soare]

But as it happens we do own a PHEV that we charge from our PV array - so mirror checked and all OK!

Nope. You’re cheating. Hybrids don’t count. They still use gas. Enjoying a five litre Mustang while your wife drives a hybrid doesn’t do anything to save the planet.
Mirror not checked.
Replace your Mustang and Lotus with a fully electric vehicle and then we’ll talk. Until then your eco warrior stance is nothing but hypocrisy.

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[Gregs24]

Nope. You’re cheating. Hybrids don’t count. They still use gas. Enjoying a five litre Mustang while your wife drives a hybrid doesn’t do anything to save the planet.
Mirror not checked.
Replace your Mustang and Lotus with a fully electric vehicle and then we’ll talk. Until then your eco warrior stance is nothing but hypocrisy.

Well 75% of our (we both drive it) mileage is EV from solar PV's. Mustang does low miles now, Lotus has now gone so will update profile. So very little petrol.

No hypocrisy - I'm not an ecowarrior either.

It's funny how despite significant efforts made by me to reduce my impact on the environment, pollution, greenhouse gasses, house heating etc I am called a hypocrite / ecowarrior. Again classic extremist behaviour. It is all or nothing, live in a cave in the dark or you cannot pass comment sort of rubbish. Maybe that is the difference between us. I am prepared to do things to benefit others and the environment we live in rather than sticking two fingers up at the world and getting all antsy about oppressive governments.

 

[Bulldog9]

If I were you I would do some proper research on the subject rather than just believing what you want to hear.

We ARE in a climate crisis - there is plenty of evidence for this today.

car companies are NOT pulling back on EV's at all, they are investing millions

The title of this thread (that GM are pulling back on EV's) was debunked in the first few pages, GM were closing an ICE plant to invest MORE in EV production

FCEV's (hydrogen) ARE EV's with electric motors and batteries, similar to a PHEV but with a fuel stack rather than ICE engine.

Some countries are way ahead of the US in transition to largely EV's

Shellenberger is an author without the expertise to use the 'evidence' he proposes. Here is an example of how he has misquoted / misunderstood people:

In his book, Shellenberger argues that people shouldn't need to be worried about climate change causing crop failure, famine and consequent mass deaths because he believes that when it comes to food production, humans will be able to produce more food despite the effects of climate change. Shellenberger cites an editorial that is published by a group led by Eric Holt-Giménez to support his statement, however Holt-Giménez later told Snopes that Shellenberger "has either misunderstood our editorial, or is purposefully mischaracterizing our points."

There will always be somebody who will shout loudly to the contrary in order to sell a book!

'let markets decide' is the standard fall back from people who don't like being told what to do for the benefit of others. If you 'let markets decide' all that will happen is cheap subsidised oil will keep on pouring out controlled by a few companies.

Nice to see you thing everybody outside the US / Europe is a 'wacko' - nice bit of isolationism there. The why should I change if other people haven't is straight out of the primary school playground

How's the coolaid buddy? Have you checked with Al Gore lately to see how his dramatic predictions are bearing out?

There is NO global climate crisis separate or unique to millennial historical trends. We are in an interglacial period perhaps hastened by human activity, maybe even likely.

Famine, severe climate change, and geographical upheaval IS the way of nature and history. Witness the history of the Savannah or Antarctic landscapes, or the Mediterranean Sea valley and the thousands of CITIES buried under its waters, ot the City of Ephesus that 2000 years ago used to be a seaport. Look up how far it is from the Agean today.

Pick and choose what you want, and ignore my comments on the value and need of advanced technology and clean efforts. My research is thorough and broad, and balanced. I'm sticking with my points and rationale. You go ahead, follow your masters and live in existential angst for something YOU CAN NOT change, other than perhaps .your micro environment. I say believe what you want and GO FOR IT, but stop with the self righteous moralizing and parroting catastrophic rhetoric.

I travel the world for work, spend most of my time in southwest Asia, Middle East, India, and Africa, how about you? THEY are the major contributors, especially per capita, and let's not forget to mention the hard trash pollution.

I hope you don't eat beef or pork, or chicken, cook with a gas stove, drive an ICE vehicle, use plastics in any form. If you do, just shut up already.

No one is saying we can't do better or shouldn't, just that the catastrophizers are full of it (and making a crap ton of $$) Do some research on the history of Natural Gas and Nuclear power in California........

 

[Gregs24]

How's the coolaid buddy? Have you checked with Al Gore lately to see how his dramatic predictions are bearing out?

There is NO global climate crisis separate or unique to millennial historical trends. We are in an interglacial period perhaps hastened by human activity, maybe even likely.

Famine, severe climate change, and geographical upheaval IS the way of nature and history. Witness the history of the Savannah or Antarctic landscapes, or the Mediterranean Sea valley and the thousands of CITIES buried under its waters, ot the City of Ephesus that 2000 years ago used to be a seaport. Look up how far it is from the Agean today.

Pick and choose what you want, and ignore my comments on the value and need of advanced technology and clean efforts. My research is thorough and broad, and balanced. I'm sticking with my points and rationale. You go ahead, follow your masters and live in existential angst for something YOU CAN NOT change, other than perhaps .your micro environment. I say believe what you want and GO FOR IT, but stop with the self righteous moralizing and parroting catastrophic rhetoric.

I travel the world for work, spend most of my time in southwest Asia, Middle East, India, and Africa, how about you? THEY are the major contributors, especially per capita, and let's not forget to mention the hard trash pollution.

I hope you don't eat beef or pork, or chicken, cook with a gas stove, drive an ICE vehicle, use plastics in any form. If you do, just shut up already.

No one is saying we can't do better or shouldn't, just that the catastrophizers are full of it (and making a crap ton of $$) Do some research on the history of Natural Gas and Nuclear power in California........

It seems experts in the field don't agree with you. Where is your data, what expertise do you have to make these statements? Honestly your passive aggressive rants do nothing but prove your ignorance. You quoted Shellenberger but obviously didn't like it when you / he were called out and found to be misquoting.

Your 'research' is nothing of the sort, it is just looking for things that match your agenda. There is a term for it, confirmation bias, and it is a very dangerous thing.

You are the one on the coolaid

 

[sk47]

Hello Bulldog9; Seems Greg's already elevated you to his name calling and put downs category. I have been a recipient for years now. The game is to throw out various insults trying to bait you into a response which will get you banned from the thread or site. Such was done to the OP of this thread. Once they find a button to push which gets a restricted response there will be a tag team sort of effort to trigger you into a forbidden type of response.

Honestly your passive aggressive rants do nothing but prove your ignorance.

 

[sk47]

Uber Driver's Tesla Model 3 Battery Dies After 120,000 Miles In 15 Months (msn.com)

Hello; Being a single vehicle this story is not likely typical of all BEV's. It is what exactly happened to one which was driven hard and often.

 

[Bulldog9]

It's funny how despite significant efforts made by me to reduce........ ecowarrior...... I am prepared to do things to benefit others and the environment we live in ra and getting all antsy about oppressive governments.

It seems experts in the field don't agree with you. Where is your data, what expertise do you have to make these statements? Honestly your passive aggressive rants do nothing but prove your ignorance. You quoted Shellenberger but obviously didn't like it when you / he were called out and found to be misquoting.

Your 'research' is nothing of the sort, it is just looking for things that match your agenda. There is a term for it, confirmation bias, and it is a very dangerous thing.

You are the one on the coolaid

Reread my post buddy, nothing passive aggressive about it. Time to live by your convictions or STHU

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

Well 75% of our (we both drive it) mileage is EV from solar PV's. Mustang does low miles now, Lotus has now gone so will update profile. So very little petrol.

No hypocrisy - I'm not an ecowarrior either.

It's funny how despite significant efforts made by me to reduce my impact on the environment, pollution, greenhouse gasses, house heating etc I am called a hypocrite / ecowarrior. Again classic extremist behaviour. It is all or nothing, live in a cave in the dark or you cannot pass comment sort of rubbish. Maybe that is the difference between us. I am prepared to do things to benefit others and the environment we live in rather than sticking two fingers up at the world and getting all antsy about oppressive governments.

 

[Bulldog9]

Hello Bulldog9; Seems Greg's already elevated you to his name calling and put downs category. I have been a recipient for years now. The game is to throw out various insults trying to bait you into a response which will get you banned from the thread or site. Such was done to the OP of this thread. Once they find a button to push which gets a restricted response there will be a tag team sort of effort to trigger you into a forbidden type of response.

Yeah, 'believers' will ignore ALL the facts. Fact is C02 is 0.041% of the Earth’s atmosphere. Human activities (even in today's numbers) are responsible for just 32% of that amount. Scientists and alarmists have grabbed on to the idea that HUMANS are to blame. Well, we are..... We contribute 32% of the Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere............. 78% has NOTHING to do with us. and remember, C02 is only .04% of the atmosphere. This is a social and scientific trend that borders on a religious movement.

There are global and solar system factors such as the earths magnetic field, tilt, rotation of the planet and solar output levels that impact global temperatures and climate. It's been happening for millennia. How much has the earths surface temperature changed since 1860? 1 degree Celsius.........

Bottomline, is it is all theory extrapolated from observation, and assumed and projected conclusions. That's why Al Gore is a joke, as were the 'ice age' claims of the 70's and the 'Green New Deal Nazi's". They WANT to believe we cause it and therefore believe we can change it, and have turned it into a religious movement that wants research cash cow monopoly that silences any voice not on board.

I am 100% in favor of cleaner energy, EV's, and striving for cleaner air, and it is the West that is leading the way. Science and technology are essential. It is the WHY that I take issue with, and I have no time for moralizing hypocrites. Being good stewards of our planet is reason enough, but if we are going to be honest, all human existence and societal development will bring pollution to the air, water and soil, and even our best efforts have side effects. It all matters where you want to put your focus.

Want to build a wind farm? Cool, but you will kill lots of birds. Do it off shore? You are going to kill fish too. Then there is the long term disposal of the wings/props, not to mention the tremendous carbon emissions to build, transport, these monsters, and of course the disposal. Want Nuclear? You have to deal with the hazardous waste and VERY small risk of a meltown, etc. We can go on and on, NOTHING is perfect or easy, and there is no single solution. I am PROUD of where we are and where we are going when it comes to ICE, and want to see it continue to develop, as well as all the alternative sources of fuel and energy. We just need to avoid the draconian extremes.

 

[Vlad Soare]

Well 75% of our (we both drive it) mileage is EV from solar PV's. Mustang does low miles now, Lotus has now gone so will update profile. So very little petrol.
[...]
I am prepared to do things to benefit others and the environment we live in rather than sticking two fingers up at the world and getting all antsy about oppressive governments.

I see. Because you have a second car that's a hybrid, and you use less gas in total as a family, you think you're morally superior to me. Well, as it happens, my wife's Kuga is slowly getting old and we're thinking of a replacement. And so far the plug-in hybrid Kuga looks like the best candidate. If we get one, then I guess we'll be even, right?
My elder daughters will be 18 soon and will want to start driving. I was thinking of getting them a Fiat 500, and I'm not ruling out the electric one. If I get one, will it offset my Mustang's climate footprint enough to redeem myself?
Come to think of it, now that they're in high school I stopped driving them to and from school every day. They now take the local bus. Less miles on our cars. Do I earn points for that?

At the end of the day, as long as you still drive a Mustang you're no better than I am. Every time you drive it, you're sticking up those two fingers you're accusing me of. Everything else is just claptrap.

By the way, if we're really worried about the climate crisis and our cars' contribution to it, selling our Mustangs won't be enough. We'd have to have them crushed, otherwise they would still go on polluting and killing the planet. I won't do that. Will you?

It's funny how despite significant efforts made by me to reduce my impact on the environment, pollution, greenhouse gasses, house heating etc I am called a hypocrite / ecowarrior.

Reducing your impact on the environment is good. The hypocrisy thing isn't about the reduction of your impact, but rather about your applauding how governments are forcefully removing our choices, when you have yourself made exactly the choices that are now being removed. You want our kids not to be able to buy an ICE vehicle while you are driving and enjoying one yourself. That is hypocrisy.

 

[Gregs24]

Reread my post buddy, nothing passive aggressive about it. Time to live by your convictions or STHU

Ahh resorted to memes.

Well done. Always know when a conspiracy theorist is feeling threatened

 

[Gregs24]

Yeah, 'believers' will ignore ALL the facts. Fact is C02 is 0.041% of the Earth’s atmosphere. Human activities (even in today's numbers) are responsible for just 32% of that amount. Scientists and alarmists have grabbed on to the idea that HUMANS are to blame. Well, we are..... We contribute 32% of the Carbon Dioxide in the Atmosphere............. 78% has NOTHING to do with us. and remember, C02 is only .04% of the atmosphere. This is a social and scientific trend that borders on a religious movement.

There are global and solar system factors such as the earths magnetic field, tilt, rotation of the planet and solar output levels that impact global temperatures and climate. It's been happening for millennia. How much has the earths surface temperature changed since 1860? 1 degree Celsius.........

Bottomline, is it is all theory extrapolated from observation, and assumed and projected conclusions. That's why Al Gore is a joke, as were the 'ice age' claims of the 70's and the 'Green New Deal Nazi's". They WANT to believe we cause it and therefore believe we can change it, and have turned it into a religious movement that wants research cash cow monopoly that silences any voice not on board.

I am 100% in favor of cleaner energy, EV's, and striving for cleaner air, and it is the West that is leading the way. Science and technology are essential. It is the WHY that I take issue with, and I have no time for moralizing hypocrites. Being good stewards of our planet is reason enough, but if we are going to be honest, all human existence and societal development will bring pollution to the air, water and soil, and even our best efforts have side effects. It all matters where you want to put your focus.

Want to build a wind farm? Cool, but you will kill lots of birds. Do it off shore? You are going to kill fish too. Then there is the long term disposal of the wings/props, not to mention the tremendous carbon emissions to build, transport, these monsters, and of course the disposal. Want Nuclear? You have to deal with the hazardous waste and VERY small risk of a meltown, etc. We can go on and on, NOTHING is perfect or easy, and there is no single solution. I am PROUD of where we are and where we are going when it comes to ICE, and want to see it continue to develop, as well as all the alternative sources of fuel and energy. We just need to avoid the draconian extremes.

usual guff including getting 'Nazi' in the response

I see you have copied and pasted the climate deniers handbook. Firstly it isn't happening, then when that was proved wrong, that humans are not responsible and CO2 is so small a part of the atmosphere anyway. Then when that is wrong, there is nothing we can do about it anyway.

Do you actually believe what you write?

So just think about this: Pretty much every climatologist and related people with relevant expertise (including NASA and many other no governmental organisations worldwide) are certain that climate change is happening, can prove how much, prove causation, but they are wrong because Bulldog9 from Kentucky, who has none of these qualifications or any evidence says so. He even quotes opinion pieces that misquote scientists (who call out that misquote directly) so he KNOWS the opinion piece is dodgy at best. Who would you believe ehh? Doesn't take long to work it out does it?

But no - you get called out and you resort to memes. Wake up and stop being a sheep

 

[Gregs24]

I see. Because you have a second car that's a hybrid, and you use less gas in total as a family, you think you're morally superior to me. Well, as it happens, my wife's Kuga is slowly getting old and we're thinking of a replacement. And so far the plug-in hybrid Kuga looks like the best candidate. If we get one, then I guess we'll be even, right?
My elder daughters will be 18 soon and will want to start driving. I was thinking of getting them a Fiat 500, and I'm not ruling out the electric one. If I get one, will it offset my Mustang's climate footprint enough to redeem myself?
Come to think of it, now that they're in high school I stopped driving them to and from school every day. They now take the local bus. Less miles on our cars. Do I earn points for that?

At the end of the day, as long as you still drive a Mustang you're no better than I am. Every time you drive it, you're sticking up those two fingers you're accusing me of. Everything else is just claptrap.

By the way, if we're really worried about the climate crisis and our cars' contribution to it, selling our Mustangs won't be enough. We'd have to have them crushed, otherwise they would still go on polluting and killing the planet. I won't do that. Will you?


Reducing your impact on the environment is good. The hypocrisy thing isn't about the reduction of your impact, but rather about your applauding how governments are forcefully removing our choices, when you have yourself made exactly the choices that are now being removed. You want our kids not to be able to buy an ICE vehicle while you are driving and enjoying one yourself. That is hypocrisy.

Glad to see you are taking climate change seriously with your future choices.

And we get back to your original point that you hate governments and assume that if you are being told what to do it is communism or some other such claptrap.

As has been pointed out over and over again, without government intervention nothing will change, but that offends your principles because you don't want to have anybody tell you what to do. The irony is that unless you are some sort of hermit you are regularly told what to do every day when driving, smoking (or not) and working when you have to do what your boss tells you or his boss tells him. It is the way the world works.

One of my kids drives an EV and doesn't understand why anybody would want to drive an ICE car. The world is moving on without you.

 

[Vlad Soare]

And we get back to your original point that you hate governments and assume that if you are being told what to do it is communism or some other such claptrap.

As has been pointed out over and over again, without government intervention nothing will change, but that offends your principles because you don't want to have anybody tell you what to do.

Within certain boundaries, yes. It isn't purely black and white. I accept that some degree of control is necessary to keep us from living in complete anarchy and from just killing each other. But the other extreme is just as dangerous. I have personally experienced that other extreme and don't want to ever see it again.

As for my principles, let me give you one simple, if childish, example of what I mean. I'm always polite when I go into a shop, and always greet the shopkeeper. I'm a firm believer in respect and courtesy and always offer them (and demand and expect them myself for that matter). But if the government made it compulsory by law to be polite and to say 'hello' when I entered the premises, then I would never do it. I'd rather pay the fine than comply. Talk me into something, or encourage me towards it in a gentle fashion, and we'll be friends. Try to force it upon me, and you will instantly become my enemy.

I like electric vehicles, I recognize their strenghts and wouldn't mind having one. But I will have one when, and if, I decide that it fulfills my needs. I won't have it just because the government says I must. If I must, then I won't.
An electric Fiat 500 or Mini would fulfill my daughters' needs, while also being extremely easy to drive and cheap to maintain. Great. But a Tesla doesn't fulfill my needs, so I'll keep my Mustang.
Choice is good. It's the (enforced) lack of choice I'm taking exception to. And no, "it's for your own good, just trust us, we know better" isn't good enough for me.

 

[sk47]

but they are wrong because Bulldog9 from Kentucky, who has none of these qualifications or any evidence says so.

Hello; Back a few years during the Covid back and forth Gregs went after me and others using the same ploy. For me it was that I was only a mere Biology teacher and therefore did not qualify to have standing for my comments. Of course, my stances on particular things proved correct in the long run leading to one of Gregs more infamous spins. The one I call the "heads I win ,tails you lose".

Another aspect of Gregs philosophy is he gets to determine which sources are legit. Turns out of course only sources which support his predetermined views are deemed worthy by him. So, he has all debate covered in his own limited way.

Note- The head I win, tails you lose thing was about natural immunity from Covid. For a year or two I took the stance having and surviving a Covid infection on your own produced a good & strong immune response to any particular strain of Covid. Therefor such survivors need not take the shots. Gregs stood for everyone take the shots and went even further saying natural immunity was weaker than shot immunity.
Eventually the proof was known about natural immunity. Gregs attempted to justify his stance in this manner. Because his stance early on about natural immunity followed the "official" edicts from health authorities, therefore he was correct and i was wrong even tho my stance proved to have been correct all along. Just saying.

Note #2- Appears Gregs still has me on ignore therefore odd responses will show up from him. He also has some others active in the thread on ignore. Likely he has targeted your relatively new voice in the thread and does not see the responses from me and a few others. After a while when your well written and well supported posts continue to dismantle his arguments expect to be put on ignore as well.

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