GM is pulling back on EVs

[Gregs24]

That's fair. The start of the thread begins with references to widely reported news that GM and Ford are dialing back their EV plans because they are in the business to sell vehicles and make money. Their market plans so far are falling short (reported news many sources), dealers don't want more inventory and the truck segment is proving very hard to sell EV's too.

I respect that slanted sources have an agenda but sometimes there are granules of truth in there.

IMHO (oldie) I would prefer the next technology comes organically as money and tastes moves over to the new tech whatever it is and not have gov'ts around the world trying to "make" us adopt it.

But very shortly after the start of the thread it was demonstrated that the article didn't actually say that. There is no dialling back, but there is huge investment. GM was actually closing an ICE plant to save money for EV development.


The OP is gone (banned)

Sponsored

 

[Gregs24]

You and the other EV advocates keep repeating this like a broken record, while conveniently leaving out the fact that ICE cars never catch fire when parked and left unattended. I don't care if my car catches fire while I'm driving it, because I can simply get out and let it burn, and my insurance will take care of the rest. But I would very much care if it were to catch fire during the night and burn my house down while my family and I were asleep. You're a smart guy, so I'm pretty sure you can see the difference. You're just ignoring it because it doesn't fit your narrative.

Simply not true. I'm not an EV advocate but I'm also not an anti EV zealot.

Owners left terrified as BMWs burst into flames on driveways while engines are OFF | The Sun

Parked BMWs bursting into flames leave owners with questions - ABC News (go.com)

Ford recalls SUVs due to engine fire risk, says they should be parked outdoors (cnbc.com)

 

[Vlad Soare]

OK, I stand corrected, they can sometimes catch fire in a parking lot, but in this case I'm sure the statistics will be reversed. I mean, ICEs may be more likely to catch fire than EVs while driving (and possibly in a crash also), but they're much less likely to do it when parked - which actually is the scariest scenario of all. If my Mustang has 30% chances of burning on the road and 1% chances of spontaneously igniting in my garage, while a Tesla has 15% chances of catching fire in my garage, then the fact that 30 is higher than 15 becomes a moot point for me.

 

[Gregs24]

OK, I stand corrected, they can sometimes catch fire in a parking lot, but in this case I'm sure the statistics will be reversed. I mean, ICEs may be more likely to catch fire than EVs while driving (and possibly in a crash also), but they're much less likely to do it when parked - which actually is the scariest scenario of all. If my Mustang has 30% chances of burning on the road and 1% chances of spontaneously igniting in my garage, while a Tesla has 15% chances of catching fire in my garage, then the fact that 30 is higher than 15 becomes a moot point for me.

Data?

There is NO evidence for this that I can find. Modern cars (EV and ICE) are never 'off' and so it is no surprise that they can catch fire when parked up occasionally.

Spontaneous fires are incredibly rare full stop, doubling not much is still not much.

0.0012% chance of an EV catching fire and 0.1% chance of an ICE catching fire, 0.004 v 0.08 in another study mentioned below. And most of those 'EV' fires are eScooters!

Are electric and hybrid cars more likely to catch fire? Here's why EV blazes are harder to put out... | This is Money

It is a complete non-story

 

[K4fxd]

It is a complete non-story

I submit as evidence 2 cargo ships that were sunk or destroyed carrying BEV's. Due to fire.

How many cargo ships have been sunk or scrapped due to hauling ICE?

 

[gone_n_60]

But very shortly after the start of the thread it was demonstrated that the article didn't actually say that. There is no dialling back, but there is huge investment. GM was actually closing an ICE plant to save money for EV development.


The OP is gone (banned)

there is this out there from respectable sources...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/27/ford-pushes-back-ev-target-warns-of-wider-losses.html

EV Trucks
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesl...and-expectations-for-ev-trucks-173436274.html

Reuters is respectable...

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-factory-ramp-demand-fears-spread-2023-10-19/

npr for heavens sake... LOL



GM will delay Truck EV production to "boost" profitability. They are in it for the money not to make a better world.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/gm-pushes-silverado-ev-truck-production-back/

I'm not saying it's all gloom and doom. I do believe (because when govt's try to do something they do it badly) forcing a technology transfer will not work out well. And who picks up the bill? In the US we the tax payer "pay" for all bad decisions of our gov't.

 

[Gregs24]

there is this out there from respectable sources...

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/07/27/ford-pushes-back-ev-target-warns-of-wider-losses.html

EV Trucks
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesl...and-expectations-for-ev-trucks-173436274.html

Reuters is respectable...

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...-factory-ramp-demand-fears-spread-2023-10-19/

npr for heavens sake... LOL



GM will delay Truck EV production to "boost" profitability. They are in it for the money not to make a better world.

https://electrek.co/2023/10/17/gm-pushes-silverado-ev-truck-production-back/

I'm not saying it's all gloom and doom. I do believe (because when govt's try to do something they do it badly) forcing a technology transfer will not work out well. And who picks up the bill? In the US we the tax payer "pay" for all bad decisions of our gov't.

There is indeed slower than expected growth, but growth is still very much there. One of the problems is the huge growth in new Chinese EV only brands hoovering up domestic demand and branching out elsewhere. I'm sure legacy car makers had not really fully factored this in to growth predictions so their growth may be less than expected, but that doesn't mean the market overall is weakening as much. The sales of EV's globally is truly staggering considering where they were even 5 years ago.

 

[sk47]

Are electric and hybrid cars more likely to catch fire? Here's why EV blazes are harder to put out... | This is Money

It is a complete non-story

Hello; A non story?? From the link.
"Why 'thermal runaway' is a major concern
Any expert speaking about the risks associated with fires in battery-powered tech will refer to 'thermal runaway'. "

"This is a term that's been used when referencing recent house fires caused by phones, 'hoverboards' and - of late - e-scooters setting alight."

"It is the term used for the chain reaction within a battery cell that is almost impossible to stop once started by extreme heat that triggers a chemical reaction inside the battery."

"Triggers can include overcharging, which is why some devices have self-combusted while charging in owners' homes, and - importantly for electric cars - collisions. "

"The reaction essentially produces more heat, driving the battery temperature higher and potentially causing further reactions that continue to increase this and extend fires for longer periods."

"This can happen within milliseconds and reportedly can reach temperatures as high as 752 degrees Fahrenheit, or 400 degrees Celsius. "

"According to the National Fire Chiefs Council (NFCC), thermal runaway can also cause 'unpredictable fire behaviour'. "

"It goes on: 'This can be the result of temperature variations limited to only one or a small number of damaged cells, and can cause ignition that occurs spontaneously over varying time frames.'"

"How do EVs burn differently to petrol and diesel cars?
While there's plenty of data to support the statement that EVs are less likely to set on fire than petrol and diesel cars, there's no disputing the fact that if they do begin to burn, they're far more difficult to put out."

"This is because their lithium-ion batteries burn hot - and very fast - as we've already discussed."

"They also require more effort to be extinguished because the batteries can generate enough heat to reignite after the initial fire has been put out. These 'dormant phases' can last for hours before they relight, experts warn.'

"And such high temperatures can cause gassing of the battery and blazes so hot that they become extremely difficult to extinguish. "

"A statement from the NFCC explains: 'The reignition of batteries is possible after prolonged periods, after mechanical shock, heating or battery faults. "

"'They may require extended periods of cooling and monitoring after a fire or collision. "

"'Damaged batteries can be too sensitive to move, and personnel may have to consider cordoning off a vehicle and handing it over to a responsible person.'"

"It also warned that the presence of reactive metals in batteries - such as lithium - can cause the release of explosive and toxic gases and alkaline solution, caused by chemical reaction to water, for example, lithium hydroxide (LiOH) and hydrogen (H2), which can appear as steam."

"Essex County Fire and Rescue Service also points out EVs are more harmful when they burn. "

"It says over 100 organic chemicals are generated including some toxic gases such as carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide – both of which are extremely flammable and can have serious health effects on people."

Hello; Also an EV scooter or e-bike is still an EV. Perhaps even more risky as they are often carried into apartment buildings. Too easy to steal if left on the street. I suppose if we wanted to be more accurate with regard to the fire issue all lithium batteries need o be included in the risk of fire discussion and not try to limit EV fires to only cars and trucks. Asking too much I guess as such is a negative for the EV champion agenda.

While the discussion as to which type catches fire more often and under what circumstance (parked, wrecked or driving) in worth having and insurance companies will be on top of all that. The bigger issue is the intensity of the EV fire and the difficulty of controlling them once beyond a critical point.
I have six or seven fire extinguishers positioned around my house. So far not had a fire. Might have a chance with a gasoline fire but from what i find not with an EV fire.

 

[sk47]

The sales of EV's globally is truly staggering considering where they were even 5 years ago.

Hello; Two comments. First is since the mandates supporting EV's and punishing ICE are not yet five years old if my take is correct, then going back five or more years to compare EV sales is at the very least misleading. Because of the mandates and perhaps more importantly the edicts placed onto the auto builders the sales figures are skewed. These top down edicts from the powers that be are forcing car makers to build and stock up on BEV's. I get the EV champions like to leave these pressures out of the discussion and pretend BEV's are competing evenly with ICE sales.
Leaving out the too easily corrupted sales parentage figures in terms of increases, the numbers I keep seeing is EV's sales remain something around 5% to 6% overall. Not quite staggering to my way of thinking. Even less impressive given the advertising blitz going on and the save the planet scenario attached to BEV's currently. My take is some surprise EV sales are not stronger given these massive pushes. Guess people are taking a good look at the product (BEV) and seeing it is an inferior product compared to an ICE. Point of fact is even the champions on this forum are not having EV's in any numbers.

 

[sk47]

Second day of Formula E testing canceled after fire (msn.com)

Hello; Formula E is pure EV race cars I think. I imagine the champions can tell us how this is a non story.

 

[sk47]

Battery maker LG Energy Solution warns of slowing EV demand, shares fall (msn.com)

Hello; Another EV demand slowing story.

 

[sk47]

New report unmasks true costs of electric vehicle mandates: 'Remain more expensive' (msn.com)

“A sweeping first-of-its-kind analysis published by think tank Texas Public Policy Foundation (TPPF) concludes that electric vehicles (EV) would cost tens of thousands of dollars more if not for generous taxpayer-funded incentives.”

“…the average model year 2021 EV would cost approximately $48,698 more to own over a 10-year period without the staggering $22 billion in taxpayer-funded handouts that the government provides to electric car manufacturers and owners. The analysis factors in federal fuel efficiency programs, electric grid strain, and direct state and federal subsidies.”

"It’s time for federal and state governments to stop driving the American auto industry off an economic cliff and allow markets to drive further improvements in cost and efficiency," it continues.”

“The report determined that, thanks to a special multiplier that has existed for more than two decades, EVs receive roughly seven times more credits under federal fuel efficiency programs than they provide in actual fuel economy benefits. That figure, the total regulatory credits from federal and state fuel efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions standards, amounts to an average of $27,881 per vehicle for EV makers.”

“Further, the analysis calculated the socialized cost of EV charging stations' strain on the U.S. electric grid amounts to an average of $11,833 per EV over 10 years. Such costs are shouldered by utility ratepayers and taxpayers, many of whom may not own an EV.”

And, finally, state governments and the federal government provide an average of $8,984 per EV over 10 years in direct taxpayer-funded subsidies.

"The stark reality for proponents of EVs and for the dreamers in the federal government, who are using fuel economy regulations to force manufacturers to produce ever more EVs, is that the true cost of an EV is in no way close to a comparable [internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV)]," the report concludes.”

“…has pursued rigorous restrictions on gas-powered vehicles. In December 2022, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) finalized rules, which targeted heavy-duty trucks, that it said at the time were the "strongest-ever national clean air standards to cut smog- and soot-forming emissions" from such vehicles. The new standards went into effect on March 27 and will be implemented for new trucks sold after 2027.”

“"Electric vehicle owners have been the beneficiaries of regulatory credits, subsidies, and socialized infrastructure costs totaling nearly 50 thousand dollars per EV," he said. "These costs are borne by gasoline vehicle owners, taxpayers, and utility ratepayers, who are all paying a hefty price for someone else’s EV."”



Hello; Sad as it may seem to be I did not copy other damming bits about the attacks on ICE vehicles. While it might be entertaining to see how the champions react to this report, mostly I figure the information confirms what many of us have suspected for a long time. Even if a person buys into the save the planet hype associated with BEV’s this amounts to a top-down scam. Add to the situation that on the whole BEV’s are not all that clean.

 

[tripleyellowmustang]

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10

Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working

• At earnings this week, several auto execs pulled back on EV targets.
• Dealers have been warning of slowing EV demand for months.
• "This is a pretty brutal space," Mercedes-Benz's CFO said this week.

“With signs of growing inventory and slowing sales, auto industry executives admitted this week that their ambitious electric vehicle plans are in jeopardy, at least in the near term.”

“That's as inventory builds up at dealerships, much to the chagrin of dealers. While car buyers are in luck if they're looking for a deal on a plug-in vehicle, executives are finding even significant markdowns and discounts aren't enough. These cars are taking dealers longer to sell compared with their gas counterparts as the next wave of buyers focus on cost, infrastructure challenges, and lifestyle barriers to adopting.”

”In scrapping plans with GM to co-develop sub-$30,000 EVs, Honda CEO Toshihiro Mibe said the shifting EV environment was difficult to gauge.

’After studying this for a year, we decided that this would be difficult as a business, so at the moment we are ending development of an affordable EV,‘ Mibe said in an interview with Bloomberg this week.”

“’People are finally seeing reality,‘Toyota Motor Chairman Akio Toyoda said at the Japan Mobility Show, the Wall Street Journal reported. Toyoda has long been skeptical of his peers' pure-electric blueprints.”

 

[K4fxd]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/case-wind-power-built-upon-110000064.html

The case for wind power was built upon a falsehood

The energy “market” is not really much of a market at all, not when it comes to green energy. The Government underwrites wind and solar through “contracts for difference” – guaranteeing operators a minimum “strike price”, rising with inflation, for every megawatt-hour of electricity they generate over 15 years.

The trouble is that wind farm developers will no longer accept the strike prices offered. Last time the Government held an auction for the right to build offshore wind farms, in September, it received not a single bid.

 

[sk47]

Breaking Down the Numbers: How $22 Billion in Subsidies Slashed EV Prices by Nearly $50,000 (msn.com)

“Why does all of this matter to the consumer? While it’s hard to grasp everything happening here, the bottom line is that electric cars cost significantly more than the price sticker suggests. And if EVs cost the government some $50,000 extra in the form of grants and credits, one has to wonder how sustainable this is. How soon will it be before taxpayers will feel the weight of the electric vehicle revolution?”

Hello; I think this story has been posted about already. However, this version states the big question in a manner worth another look. I did not copy the details from the article so read the link if you are interested.

The bit quoted above is the crux of the matter. That $50,000 per each EV spent by the government is not magic money. It is the same dollars you get on payday except for a big difference. Most, if not all those dollars come from borrowing money or money being printed. Either way it becomes part of the massive national debt, now over 33 trillion or so.

Put another way. The excess spending of decades has built up this debt. Monies spent for things like “cash for clunkers” or the various wars including the most recent. Thing is not one penny of the principal of that debt has been paid off for a very long time. Only accrued interest on that debt is paid each year. It was a big payment just a couple of years ago when the interest rates were at near zero percent. Now the interest rate the government must make payments at is around 5% or better. I do not have the figures for how much a percentage point increases the debt payments each year, but it is in the billions.

The fed had to start raising the percentage rate to try to slow down inflation. There have been several rate hikes the last two years. I personally do not see inflation down much so seems possible more rate hikes can come.

Back to the EV cost. Even with all the background monies (at $50,000 per EV) an EV still retails more than a similar ICE. The word sustainable rears an ugly head. One point is clear enough. That $50,000 per EV will be placed on the backs of the taxpayers at some point. We also get the extra expense from day to day inflation caused by excessive government spending. (Look up Venezuela’s financial situation as an example of what can happen) The cost will be borne by all who work and pay taxes even if we do not own an EV. So, if you are like me and still have an ICE it is something to think about every time you see an EV on the highway. The EV owner may pay about half the cost at purchase but the rest of us pay the other half in these subsidies and other monies.

Sponsored