GM is pulling back on EVs

[K4fxd]

The issue with PHEVs is that to do it right, you have to engineer two complete powertrains in the vehicle, each capable of driving the vehicle

Why not take a page from locomotives, have the engine drive a generator. This way you only need one drive train.

Something along the lines of when the pack falls below a set point the engine starts and charges the pack.

Or throw the battery out all together and have the generator power the motor.

I understand this would not be zero emission but would bridge the gap. I have not researched this so I don't know if this would be more efficient than the current ICE model.

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[martinjlm]

Burkey all my sources have been taken down, they are no longer on the internet. It seems contrary easily disproved information gets redacted.

Alternative theory noted above…

 

[K4fxd]

Alternative theory noted above…

Still can't deny the earth has warmed and cooled in the past.
I wish I still had the hard drive that stuff was on. NASA charts were changed.

You say the info was wrong and removed/changed, I say it didn't fit the narrative and they wanted to keep their funding.

Who is right? Unfortunately none of us will be alive to find out.

 

[martinjlm]

Why not take a page from locomotives, have the engine drive a generator. This way you only need one drive train.

Something along the lines of when the pack falls below a set point the engine starts and charges the pack.

Ironically, this is exactly the approach used in developing GM’s 2-Mode Hybrid System that was used in Tahoe / Yukon / Escalade hybrids. The people who were central to the hardware development were former GM Allison / GM Electromotive engineers. GM Electromotive was GM’s locomotive engineering team. Other members of the 2-Mode Hybrid development team and Volt development team were veterans of the EV1 project. My boss at the time of the 2-Mode Hybrid development had been the leader of the EV1 program. I learned a lot from him. He is currently CEO of one of the EV companies I’ve said you’ve likely never heard of…

So, basically, been there done that, it isn’t enough and it isn’t zero emissions so it is a non-starter.

Or throw the battery out all together and have the generator power the motor.

I understand this would not be zero emission but would bridge the gap. I have not researched this so I don't know if this would be more efficient than the current ICE model.

GM and other automakers have made zero emissions central to their corporate strategy. Some will get there sooner than others, but that is the long game and there is zero interest in displacing zero emissions (see what I did there )

 

[martinjlm]

Why not take a page from locomotives, have the engine drive a generator. This way you only need one drive train.

Something along the lines of when the pack falls below a set point the engine starts and charges the pack.

Or throw the battery out all together and have the generator power the motor.

I understand this would not be zero emission but would bridge the gap. I have not researched this so I don't know if this would be more efficient than the current ICE model.

Forgot to point out… for hybrids and EVs, the motor is the generator. You’re suggesting a perpetual energy machine.

 

[AZlb5.0]

@Gregs24 gets upset like an over emotional effeminate male when people ignore him.

The people’s opinion of me who matter

My father
My wife
My kids

@Gregs24 you missed the list.

 

[K4fxd]

Forgot to point out… for hybrids and EVs, the motor is the generator. You’re suggesting a perpetual energy machine.

No, I'm thinking about a motor that turns a generator or turbine. Whatever you want to call it.

You are right in the sense that the engine is using a fuel to power the vehicle. So it can be considered the generator.

Same as when you plug in your BEV, the power comes from mostly fossil fuels.

 

[martinjlm]

No, I'm thinking about a motor that turns a generator or turbine. Whatever you want to call it.

You are right in the sense that the engine is using a fuel to power the vehicle. So it can be considered the generator.

Same as when you plug in your BEV, the power comes from mostly fossil fuels.

Your suggestion was to remove the battery (energy source) and power the motor directly from the generator, which happens to be the same device. How was I supposed to infer that there is a turbine involved? And what fuels the turbine? Not even gonna get into introducing turbine technology to a car. All roads lead to a battery as an energy storage / dispensation device. When the motor runs “forward” it draws energy from the battery. When the motor runs in ”reverse” it is a generator putting energy back into the battery for later use. That is what regenerative braking is all about. You, K4fxd, may already be aware of this but I’m detailing for others reading this thread that may not be as aware.

 

[sk47]

You are selectively parsing my words to imply meanings inconsistent with what I actually said. What I SAID is that each of my vehicles is a tool, not just the EV.


I highlighted the part in orange because I really don’t understand what you’re trying to say there.


We already have enough knowledge and experience with Prius, Leaf, Tesla, and Volt products that are more than 10 years old to see that there is an existing and growing industry in the remanufacturing of hybrid and EV batteries.

“Johnny on the 5th floor” has been one of my talking points internally and at multiple conference speaking engagements when discussing how long ICE will be viable. There are solutions that are available and capable of mitigating this issue, but until they are implemented, it remains a hurdle.

I don’t champion EVs.

Hello; First I understood that all vehicles are tools to some degree. ICE included.

Hello; Seems simple enough. Hybrids are around for over 22 years and had a shot at being the next new best transportation system. Did not happen as there was very low adoption by the public. EV's around less time but still were not making it even with incentives. Now we are in the MANDATE phase. You do not need incentives, mandates and such to get people to buy into something better.

Hello; Never said battery recycling has not started. Just that it was not yet mature. Another "someday" item.

Hello; So what are the solutions available for "Johnny on the fifth floor"?

Hello; Not an EV champion? Fooled me. My bad then.

 

[K4fxd]

Your suggestion was to remove the battery

Have you never been around locomotives?

They have 1, 2 sometimes up to 6 engines in the locomotive. These engines power or turn generators. Sometimes called turbines, wind mill generators are called turbines. These generators are wired to motors on the wheels of the locomotive. There are no batteries except for starting the first engine.

This is the most efficient way to run a train. I do not know how it would work in an automotive setting. Probably won't work or we would see semi trucks powered this way.

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; First I understood that all vehicles are tools to some degree. ICE included.

Hello; Seems simple enough. Hybrids are around for over 22 years and had a shot at being the next new best transportation system. Did not happen as there was very low adoption by the public. EV's around less time but still were not making it even with incentives. Now we are in the MANDATE phase. You do not need incentives, mandates and such to get people to buy into something better.

Earliest EVs were super costly to produce, were only produced to comply with CAFE requirements, and typically had a range of 100 miles or less. Companies that produced them hoped to only sell enough to fit their CAFE planning and not one more. Then FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne (rip) even famously publicly said about the Fiat 500e “please don’t buy this vehicle”. Because they lost a ton of money on every one produced beyond the CAFE balancing point. In walks Tesla with EVs that have 300+ mile ranges.

Sidenote…in an earlier position in my career at GM I was adjacent to the team that does consumer survey and profile work. One of the basic findings is that consumers lose interest in vehicles whose range (tank size x mpg) is less than 250 miles. As a result, GM targeted a minimum range of 300 miles for any new vehicles. There were a few exceptions, but those were typically discussed at length before moving forward.

So, EVs with 100 mile range were of interest to only the most diehard of diehard EV fans, but Tesla changed the game. Larger OEMs paid attention to Tesla and after longer study than should have been necessary concluded that consumers like electric vehicles IF they have long enough range and IF they can reliably charge them. Tesla has covered both of those bases and everybody else is playing catch up.

Hello; Never said battery recycling has not started. Just that it was not yet mature. Another "someday" item.

And I maintain that it is mature. It just needs to grow in scale with the growth in EV sales. That’s not difficult. All that’s needed is space and money. No new invention other than to improve process yield and efficiency. It is not a someday item. It is a parallel process that is well understood. When you get a chance, Google Li-Cycle.

Hello; So what are the solutions available for "Johnny on the fifth floor"?

There are several in play. My personal favorite is a pilot program that is in place in Kansas City that installs Level 2 chargers in street lamps. Makes sense, because street lamps already have power being delivered to them from the grid, so little additional wiring is required. What additional wiring that is needed to achieve the correct current delivery can simply follow the existing wiring paths. A lot of municipalities are looking at code modifications requiring new homes and housing developments to be wired for 240V to support Level 2 charging. Apartment buildings and complexes can then install a number of resident-accessible charging units. Residents won’t all be able to charge all of their vehicles every night all at once, but fact of the matter is, few people get gasoline every day. This generation of EVs have range of 260 - 350 miles (see my note on range in italics above) and can typically handle customers’ usual driving requirements with once per week charging. There are a number of companies that are beginning to specialize in installation of charging systems for multi-family housing developments.

Hello; Not an EV champion? Fooled me. My bad then.

One of the things that annoys me about today’s socio-political environment is everything has to be categorized as THIS or THAT. You’re either a tree-hugging EV lover or a knuckle-dragging ICE luddite. There’s actually a lot of room in between those extremes which is where most of the population resides, but people on each extreme of the spectrum spend way too much time placing those who don’t agree with them on the far other end of the spectrum. Delete ICE/EV and substitute Liberal / Conservative, First Amendment / Book Banning, immigration, et cetera, and you wind up with a population that feels like it has to label every interaction and generate hate for everybody who falls outside of their chosen belief bucket. Thus my fervent disdain for the “true-believer” bullshit label. None of you know enough about me to accurately make that call so just stay the f*** away from trying to label me. Not directed towards you specifically sk47, but making sure that those who feel the need to “label” me know you need to come with much better knowledge of me than you have, despite all I have already told you. (/rant)

 

[martinjlm]

Have you never been around locomotives?

They have 1, 2 sometimes up to 6 engines in the locomotive. These engines power or turn generators. Sometimes called turbines, wind mill generators are called turbines. These generators are wired to motors on the wheels of the locomotive. There are no batteries except for starting the first engine.

This is the most efficient way to run a train. I do not know how it would work in an automotive setting. Probably won't work or we would see semi trucks powered this way.

Yes. Did you see my comment about not even wanting to get into what it takes to put turbine technology in cars? That’s why I did not address it. It was looked at in the ‘60s and rapidly abandoned. That’s all I’ll say on it.

 

[K4fxd]

Yes. Did you see my comment about not even wanting to get into what it takes to put turbine technology in cars? That’s why I did not address it. It was looked at in the ‘60s and rapidly abandoned. That’s all I’ll say on it.

Yes Chrysler did try a turbine powered car.

I should have never used the word turbine because it sent you down a rabbit hole. I simply meant a generator that needs outside power to turn.

I have seen the term "turbine" used in association with wind mills and hydro electric plants to describe the generator.

 

[K4fxd]

This generation of EVs have range of 260 - 350 miles (see my note on range in italics above) and can typically handle customers’ usual driving requirements with once per week charging.

Every one I know with an EV plugs them in just like people do golf carts. They pull in the garage and plug up.

 

[martinjlm]

Every one I know with an EV plugs them in just like people do golf carts. They pull in the garage and plug up.

Exactly. So do I with the Volt. And when we replace the Volt with the Blazer EV, we’ll plug it in every night because we can. But we won’t need to, because we will likely only need to replenish no more than 15-20 kWh of the battery’s 102 kWh capacity. If we only plugged it in once a week we’d get along just fine. Since we were talking about “Johnny on the fifth floor” I need to take into account that he may not be able to plug in every night like I can..

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