GM is pulling back on EVs

[AZlb5.0]

And this is the public at large speaking when this happens

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[sk47]

And this is the public at large speaking when this happens

Hello; Very interesting video. I suggest if you are an EV champion do not watch it. However, if you do please enlighten us as to the flaws. For those on the fence lots of good information which ought to help with a decision.
That said the author is not simply bashing EV's the way I and some others do. So, a decent source of information laid out in a digestible manner.
Also, a good take on the financial aspects of owning an EV currently. One point caught my attention. That is the EV's may be some more trouble free than an ICE short term but when something does go wrong it is often very expensive to fix. This is not only battery replacement apparently. While batteries are likely the most expensive repair/replacement item, the complexity of EV's means lots of technical expensive repairs.

I am not on the fence about an EV at all. Will be a last resort for me, if ever. I did appreciate the hybrids angle as that has been my thinking of late. If all reasonable ICE are mandated/incentivized out of reach, then to have transportation I will take a hybrid.

I do not know if the EV market will tank as the video seems to suggest. Seems to have for used Teslas . The $14,000 price cut on a new model overnight has left some recent owners with a used EV they cannot trade or sell. Interesting implications.

Lots more i did not touch in the video.

 

[sk47]

edit -double post

 

[Gregs24]

And this is the public at large speaking when this happens

Well that is a bit of a ramble and the title is click bait. The car market is depressed - yes we know. US charging infrastructure is awful - yes we know. Old Nissan Leaf not on the road? Ehh. There are plenty of them on the roads in the UK at 10 years+ old and EV battery life is the life of the car and more. The batteries get repurposed after the car is scrapped for less demanding use. Yes if a 10 year old Leaf has a failed battery you scrap the car, guess what if a 10 year old ICE car has a failed engine you scrap the car. PHEV's work well - yes we know (in fact we have one) However in the UK demand for PHEV's is growing slowly compared to EV's now.

 

[sk47]

Well that is a bit of a ramble and the title is click bait. The car market is depressed - yes we know. US charging infrastructure is awful - yes we know. Old Nissan Leaf not on the road? Ehh. There are plenty of them on the roads in the UK at 10 years+ old and EV battery life is the life of the car and more. The batteries get repurposed after the car is scrapped for less demanding use. Yes if a 10 year old Leaf has a failed battery you scrap the car, guess what if a 10 year old ICE car has a failed engine you scrap the car. PHEV's work well - yes we know (in fact we have one) However in the UK demand for PHEV's is growing slowly compared to EV's now.

Well that is a bit of a ramble and not full of facts. The car market being depressed is correct and an argument for why could be made suggesting reasons trace back to influences beyond the car market itself. I cannot prove but would not be surprised to learn those who favored lockdowns and other covid mandates are also EV champions. At least i know of a few who fit that category.

That charging infrastructure is awful is not to be dismissed simply because such is well known. Public charging is a part of the overall EV experience and a factor in the decision to own an EV. If gas stations were in the same shape such would be a big factor in deciding to buy an ICE. Fortunately until some mandate happens we have plenty of gas stations actually available. I took that portion of the video to be an explanation of the situation on the ground as it currently is. But if any can simply dismiss it as not a factor, I guess such works for them.

I do not actually know the numbers of old Leafs on or off the road. I can grasp the concept of a replacement battery costing more than the car is worth to be a reason to scrap a car. As far as a ten year old ICE goes i know of cases where an ICE engine has been replaced. I have done so myself a couple of times. You can go and buy a sound junkyard engine for not a lot or a rebuilt for a bit more. Point being such is done often enough. But is some can accept that an EV is essentially a throw away car once the battery is done, such is their own business.
I do wonder if the throw away EV chassis is factored into the environmental impact of EV's. I have a 22 year old ICE with 138,000 miles which i bought new. Engine still sound but i would consider a rebuild as the chassis is also sound. Part of a vehicles environmental impact is the actual manufacture of the body, suspension and all. I figure my keeping a car for over twenty years avoids a lot of steel and other raw materials being smelted to make a new car. But that is just me.

Odd thing is I am all for those for whom an EV will work having them. Freedom of choice and all. Dare i complain about incentives using some of my tax burden to promote the venture??

 

[jtmat]

And this is the public at large speaking when this happens

He was hit and miss....

Hits:

• EV issues in cold weather shocked a lot of drivers. I've not looked into how widespread the issues are. I knew issues in cold weather were possible....
• Demand is down - car market in total is down. No shocker here... not sure the connection to EVs is solid.
• EV range is not great
• Early adopter - yes, this pain is real.
• Hybrids might be a good solution for a lot of people.

Misses:

• No one wants to touch used Teslas. Ha ha ha. True, Tesla cause a temp problem by lowering prices.. but really? LOL.
• Seemed to suggest
• Charging infrastructure seems fine where I need to go. And that includes visiting the deep south (what some might call the deep woods). My issue is the length of time it takes to charge and the EV range. True, I'd have to plan more if I had an EV... maybe that is what I truly dislike (I like my... wait for it... FREEDOMS!)
• Cost. The lists I've seen (comparing cars) the EV always seem to come out better. I mean, of course the owners will say that if they are "Green People". But when they have spreadsheets and such... dunno.
• EV incentives. Most car manufactures will qualify for incentives. Not sure he knows that many companies have factories right here in America (Honda - Ohio; BMW - SC; etc.). Putting smart Americans to work! He actually makes one of my points in this comment... Hyundai is breaking ground on a new plant and will begin selling American made EVs in 2024/5. Great news for Americans! He also mentioned Toyota, but everyone knows they are behind the curve in the EV space.
• Range - I know in "hits" as well. For some who live in the city or don't go on long trips, EVs are 100% fine. Friend of mine who owns a contracting company said an EV would be perfect due to the features it offers, for example. Plus, he is not taking his work truck on a 700 mile trip.

Overall good entertainment from someone with a perspective I might not hear otherwise... what videos like this are. This is good long as you research and not take what is said on face value...

 

[AZlb5.0]

He was hit and miss....

Hits:

• EV issues in cold weather shocked a lot of drivers. I've not looked into how widespread the issues are. I knew issues in cold weather were possible....
• Demand is down - car market in total is down. No shocker here... not sure the connection to EVs is solid.
• EV range is not great
• Early adopter - yes, this pain is real.
• Hybrids might be a good solution for a lot of people.

Misses:

• No one wants to touch used Teslas. Ha ha ha. True, Tesla cause a temp problem by lowering prices.. but really? LOL.
• Seemed to suggest
• Charging infrastructure seems fine where I need to go. And that includes visiting the deep south (what some might call the deep woods). My issue is the length of time it takes to charge and the EV range. True, I'd have to plan more if I had an EV... maybe that is what I truly dislike (I like my... wait for it... FREEDOMS!)
• Cost. The lists I've seen (comparing cars) the EV always seem to come out better. I mean, of course the owners will say that if they are "Green People". But when they have spreadsheets and such... dunno.
• EV incentives. Most car manufactures will qualify for incentives. Not sure he knows that many companies have factories right here in America (Honda - Ohio; BMW - SC; etc.). Putting smart Americans to work! He actually makes one of my points in this comment... Hyundai is breaking ground on a new plant and will begin selling American made EVs in 2024/5. Great news for Americans! He also mentioned Toyota, but everyone knows they are behind the curve in the EV space.
• Range - I know in "hits" as well. For some who live in the city or don't go on long trips, EVs are 100% fine. Friend of mine who owns a contracting company said an EV would be perfect due to the features it offers, for example. Plus, he is not taking his work truck on a 700 mile trip.

Overall good entertainment from someone with a perspective I might not hear otherwise... what videos like this are. This is good long as you research and not take what is said on face value...

EVs are still not embraced by majority of humanity and the only way that EVs will take over ice cars are because of government mandates and all out stoppage of oil refinement into gasoline and diesel. Soon enough the champions of EVs will figure out that once the powers that be can control your ability to travel, they will control your ability to travel. And you know what that’s definitely fine with some who loved to be baby sat who are the same ones who feel that we need to stop farming too. Yeah I know us crazy guys were also the ones saying that the lock downs were not going to be a 2 week thing and the vaccine wasn’t worth sh*t.
We were right on both and many other accounts .

change my mind

 

[jtmat]

EVs are still not embraced by majority of humanity and the only way that EVs will take over ice cars are because of government mandates and all out stoppage of oil refinement into gasoline and diesel. Soon enough the champions of EVs will figure out that once the powers that be can control your ability to travel, they will control your ability to travel.

How so? I'm interesting to hearing your opinion.

And you know what that’s definitely fine with some who loved to be baby sat who are the same ones who feel that we need to stop farming too.

I know. I grew up on a farm. The people who should have took over that trade either left for the military, big cities, or addicted to drugs (crack, meth, prescription pills, etc.). I don't think people realize even how important small farms are to local communities. Now it is "going to Walmart". Don't get me wrong, many great people stayed, but they are mostly plumbers, electricians, lawyers, etc. Great jobs, but not into farming.

Yeah I know us crazy guys were also the ones saying that the lock downs were not going to be a 2 week thing and the vaccine wasn’t worth sh*t.
We were right on both and many other accounts .

I knew the lockdowns were longer than 2 weeks (I was telling people exactly that!). Your opinion on the vaccine does not matter in this thread. There are other threads for that.

change my mind

About what? I'm not really here to change minds. Maybe others are. I am interested in conversations that make me think about different topics. I don't always agree with people, but that does not mean they are 100% wrong. Most of the time, if we sat down, we would find things are more center than not. Forum is not a great way to "debate" really. It is fun at times.... lol

 

[AZlb5.0]

How so? I'm interesting to hearing your opinion.

Hybrid vehicle sales began in 1999 and plug-in electric vehicle sales began in 2010. Hybrids captured 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2013 and again 5.5% in 2021. All-electric vehicles accounted for 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2021.

I know. I grew up on a farm. The people who should have took over that trade either left for the military, big cities, or addicted to drugs (crack, meth, prescription pills, etc.). I don't think people realize even how important small farms are to local communities. Now it is "going to Walmart". Don't get me wrong, many great people stayed, but they are mostly plumbers, electricians, lawyers, etc. Great jobs, but not into farming.

I’m m talking about the folks who want the farms to stop producing because they produce too much “carbon.” Those who are farming today are being pushed out by the same people who want to bring EVs to all.

I knew the lockdowns were longer than 2 weeks (I was telling people exactly that!). Your opinion on the vaccine does not matter in this thread. There are other threads for that.

Making a comparison simple concept most can grasp.

About what?

That electric cars are an agenda not something that majority of folks want. With EVs only being 3.2% of all light wheel vehicles on the road, it seem like a vast majority of folks don’t want them.

96.8% of the American Society want to drive ICE vehicle not EVs.

 

[jtmat]

Hybrid vehicle sales began in 1999 and plug-in electric vehicle sales began in 2010. Hybrids captured 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2013 and again 5.5% in 2021. All-electric vehicles accounted for 3.2% of the light vehicle market in 2021.

Okay... but that does not match your comment on "the powers that be can control your ability to travel, they will control your ability to travel". Maybe I misunderstood your comment. My apologies.

I’m m talking about the folks who want the farms to stop producing because they produce too much “carbon.” Those who are farming today are being pushed out by the same people who want to bring EVs to all.

Farmland is an investment... bunch of conversations around this... the who, why, etc. I'm sure what you are saying has/will happen... at what scale. Not researched it, to be honest.

On the other side of coin, I do know of a couple of small/medium farms looking and implementing EVs/automation in farming.

That electric cars are an agenda not something that majority of folks want. With EVs only being 3.2% of all light wheel vehicles on the road, it seem like a vast majority of folks don’t want them.

96.8% of the American Society want to drive ICE vehicle not EVs.

I'd say it is much higher than that... even in speaking to my friends in SC/NC small towns. A quick google search says 42% of Americans are considering an EV. The link also has some stats on if Americans favor incentives... 70% favor. You don't link where you got 3.2%, so I don't know if what you are referencing.

I'd want an EV (or hybrid) in the later years of my life for simplicity of maintenance, technology it will come with and the performance (without having to buy a "performance car").

For example, I can see when I get later in life being able to extend my driving ability with a self-driving car. Need an EV for that? No. Less trips to the "stealership" are a welcome bonus (although they will find a way to "get us", I'm sure).

I'm not exactly pro EV so nothing for me to "change your mind" about. I'm one of those people interested in the conversation, but not exactly a fanatic either way.

Plus, like I've said 100 times, the ship left the station 15 to 20 years ago on stopping it... so I don't see the argument against incentives very fruitful (even less when it means taking jobs away from Americans). I'm 1000% fine with people not liking incentives... go holler at the moon... that is fine with me.

 

[AZlb5.0]

Okay... but that does not match your comment on "the powers that be can control your ability to travel, they will control your ability to travel". Maybe I misunderstood your comment. My apologies.



Farmland is an investment... bunch of conversations around this... the who, why, etc. I'm sure what you are saying has/will happen... at what scale. Not researched it, to be honest.

On the other side of coin, I do know of a couple of small/medium farms looking and implementing EVs/automation in farming.




I'd say it is much higher than that... even in speaking to my friends in SC/NC small towns. A quick google search says 42% of Americans are considering an EV. The link also has some stats on if Americans favor incentives... 70% favor. You don't link where you got 3.2%, so I don't know if what you are referencing.

I'd want an EV (or hybrid) in the later years of my life for simplicity of maintenance, technology it will come with and the performance (without having to buy a "performance car").

For example, I can see when I get later in life being able to extend my driving ability with a self-driving car. Need an EV for that? No. Less trips to the "stealership" are a welcome bonus (although they will find a way to "get us", I'm sure).

I'm not exactly pro EV so nothing for me to "change your mind" about. I'm one of those people interested in the conversation, but not exactly a fanatic either way.

Plus, like I've said 100 times, the ship left the station 15 to 20 years ago on stopping it... so I don't see the argument against incentives very fruitful (even less when it means taking jobs away from Americans). I'm 1000% fine with people not liking incentives... go holler at the moon... that is fine with me.

Good and fair points made.

 

[sk47]

I’m m talking about the folks who want the farms to stop producing because they produce too much “carbon.” Those who are farming today are being pushed out by the same people who want to bring EVs to all.

Hello; Here is one story. The cry is cows make methane due to their digestion. True enough in the absolute. There are some overlooked parts of this idea. First, of course, being cattle are a food/milk source so even if some negative aspects attach there are overwhelmingly positive benefits.
Another odd omission is how part of the picture is about saving the environment generally includes keeping animal populations and/or even increasing the numbers of wild stocks. So domestic cattle are to be reduced in number while wild grazers with a similar digestive system are encouraged to increase in numbers. Methane from domestic food animals = bad. Methane from wild stock = good. Go figure.

Ony one example of how the "green" derangement is progressing.

The Netherlands’ Newest Climate Plan: Cut Livestock Herds By One-Third (livekindly.com)

 

[Biggus Dickus]

I also saw an article in the news feed this am that Stellantis (Dodge, Chrysler, etc.) is laying off several hundred workers at its US EV plants this month because of poor sales. Fancy that!

Umm - Chrysler, Dodge, Ram and Jeep (the US Stellantis brands) make NO EVs. I guess that explains the poor sales of US EVs.

 

[Gregs24]

Umm - Chrysler, Dodge, Ram and Jeep (the US Stellantis brands) make NO EVs. I guess that explains the poor sales of US EVs.

They do outside the US. Jeep Avenger isn't even sold in the US at all.

His original response was rubbish, as the lay offs were at an ICE plant so that Stellantis could concentrate resources on EV R&D

 

[Gregs24]

EVs are still not embraced by majority of humanity and the only way that EVs will take over ice cars are because of government mandates and all out stoppage of oil refinement into gasoline and diesel. Soon enough the champions of EVs will figure out that once the powers that be can control your ability to travel, they will control your ability to travel. And you know what that’s definitely fine with some who loved to be baby sat who are the same ones who feel that we need to stop farming too. Yeah I know us crazy guys were also the ones saying that the lock downs were not going to be a 2 week thing and the vaccine wasn’t worth sh*t.
We were right on both and many other accounts .

change my mind

Most of that is a rant. As soon as people start mentioning travel controls and lockdowns / vaccines on an EV thread it gets a bit silly!

There are many places in the world where EV sales are strong and countries where penetration is much higher than you suggest. No significant subsidies in the UK and this is what sales are doing (December was a little odd for various reasons so look at year to date). Are all these people idiots? Green zealots? Sheep?

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