GM is pulling back on EVs

[AZlb5.0]

Fun maybe…fact? Nope. Not even close. Gasoline engines deliver approximately 20-25% thermal efficiency. The most efficient engines from Toyota and Mazda deliver about 41% efficiency. Diesel engines are typically in the 40-45% efficiency range. Electricity as A fuel in vehicles in in the low to mid 90% range. Can be even higher with aggressive regen.

This was the article I read. Maybe give it once over because it seems they have a lot of good info. Maybe it’s wrong but then again it is the internet.

https://ckpower.com/battery-vs-diesel-why-we-need-both-as-we-move-into-a-greener-future/

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[Gregs24]

I’m sure that the E85 could handle E100. If anything with a small tweak but agree that the E10 tanks would have to be replaced all together. Also the risk of contamination.

I note you deleted your homophobic comment from this post - just as well

 

[Burkey]

Hello; Having a Gregs moment I see. Thing is most electricity is generated from fossil fuels currently so the over 130,000 KM (68,000 miles) break even point is accurate.
Actually more accurate than the 31,000 mile break even number in the actual real world as we sit. Sure if "someday" more electricity comes from more renewable then "someday" the break even point of an EV vs an ICE will be less. Until that special day happens the 68,000 mile is accurate today. Especially if we factor in the coal use of India and China.

We live in todays world. Not yet in the cherry picked future world.

I’m sorry, but if you lived in any number of countries other than the US, you’d find that most electricity doesn’t come from fossil fuels. Hell, I live in a county where renewables make up a pretty small percentage, BUT, I can charge an EV from 100% renewable energy because I made the investment.
Even living in a different state in the US can have a huge impact. It’s hardly anyones fault that you might live in a state that (presumably) has opted to largely ignore renewable energy sources or that you’ve elected to avoid installing a PV array on your roof.
If you lived in Iowa, more than 60% of your power would be coming from renewables or more than 50% in South Dakota. These are facts.

If you lived in New Zealand or Norway, or perhaps even Iceland your power would be more than 80% renewable based. More facts.

You don’t get to decide what the “facts“ are. The fact is that no matter which source of energy you use, the study you cited explicitly demonstrated that the EV is superior in terms of its carbon footprint over the course of its life.
If you wish to dispute this, you need to use a different source and pretend this one doesn’t exist. You don’t get to invent things that the study didn’t claim.

It’s funny that “the true believers” aren’t allowed (in your mind) to speculate on what the future might hold but you’re allowed to speculate on the future regarding how long a battery might last before it needs replacing.
Did the study discuss battery life? No? But you’re convinced that the battery won’t last the life of the vehicle… maybe in some cases it won’t. Premature failures happen. But on average, it’s clearly going to be in front. I’m sure Volvo would’ve included that information, had they deemed it relevant to the conversation. I’m sure they wouldn’t be offering the battery warranty they do unless they were fairly confident.

 

[Gregs24]

This was the article I read. Maybe give it once over because it seems they have a lot of good info. Maybe it’s wrong but then again it is the internet.

https://ckpower.com/battery-vs-diesel-why-we-need-both-as-we-move-into-a-greener-future/

Data from a wealth management consultant - wow really good source. he fails to mention conversion efficiency. Just plain wrong.

Even a basic search on efficiency of BEV's and ICE engines will quickly answer your questions

From the article you posted:

Also, it isn’t clear that electric vehicles start with fully-charged batteries. There is very little discussion about this, but lithium ion batteries lose capacity over time. As one mechanic told me recently, “They never talk about how many Toyota Prius’s are gas engine only now.”

The reason people don't talk about it is because the batteries last 100's of thousands of miles so those Prius cars just keep on going as designed. Nissan Leaf batteries at 10 years old are still going strong, recycling companies are struggling to get enough batteries because they just keep on going

 

[Gregs24]

If you wish to dispute this, you need to use a different source and pretend this one doesn’t exist. You don’t get to invent things that the study didn’t claim.

Alternative facts - now I'm sure I've heard that before from someone

 

[Burkey]

Still can't deny the earth has warmed and cooled in the past.
I wish

Interesting that when paleoclimatologiists tell you that Earth has been warmer and cooler than it is now, you’re willing to believe that the methods they’ve used are accurate, but when those same people, using those same methods tell you that CO2 is the current primary driver, you don’t believe them.

 

[Gregs24]

Interesting that when paleoclimatologiists tell you that Earth has been warmer and cooler than it is now, you’re willing to believe that the methods they’ve used are accurate, but when those same people, using those same methods tell you that CO2 is the current primary driver, you don’t believe them.

Awkward!

 

[Burkey]

Hello; same as during Covid??? Control the information sources to favor the agenda.

You’re a former science teacher. Please act like one.
Would you pull out a science text book from the 1800’s and present it to your students as though it were “current” information? I sure hope not.

As you well know, science (done properly) MUST change as new evidence comes to light.

You call it “changing the narrative”, the rest of us call it “following the evidence and presenting the current understanding”.

We don’t even use paper maps for the power grid anymore. Reason? Because they aren’t current (bad pun) enough. All it takes is one alteration to the network and the old map is utterly redundant AKA inaccurate and misleading.

I guess my employer must be “changing the narrative”

What you’re seeing is exactly what you’d expect to see if you’re brain is already wired to look for a conspiracy.

 

[Burkey]

Awkward!

Very awkward when you have a basic understanding of how they CALCULATED the historical temperature of the Earth…. but then refuse to accept calculations that are even more accurate.

 

[sk47]

I’m sorry, but if you lived in any number of countries other than the US, you’d find that most electricity doesn’t come from fossil fuels. Hell, I live in a county where renewables make up a pretty small percentage, BUT, I can charge an EV from 100% renewable energy because I made the investment.
Even living in a different state in the US can have a huge impact. It’s hardly anyones fault that you might live in a state that (presumably) has opted to largely ignore renewable energy sources or that you’ve elected to avoid installing a PV array on your roof.
If you lived in Iowa, more than 60% of your power would be coming from renewables or more than 50% in South Dakota. These are facts.

If you lived in New Zealand or Norway, or perhaps even Iceland your power would be more than 80% renewable based. More facts.

You don’t get to decide what the “facts“ are. The fact is that no matter which source of energy you use, the study you cited explicitly demonstrated that the EV is superior in terms of its carbon footprint over the course of its life.
If you wish to dispute this, you need to use a different source and pretend this one doesn’t exist. You don’t get to invent things that the study didn’t claim.

It’s funny that “the true believers” aren’t allowed (in your mind) to speculate on what the future might hold but you’re allowed to speculate on the future regarding how long a battery might last before it needs replacing.
Did the study discuss battery life? No? But you’re convinced that the battery won’t last the life of the vehicle… maybe in some cases it won’t. Premature failures happen. But on average, it’s clearly going to be in front. I’m sure Volvo would’ve included that information, had they deemed it relevant to the conversation. I’m sure they wouldn’t be offering the battery warranty they do unless they were fairly confident.

Hello; The clue to this cherry picking is that you started out with solar panels on your own roof. I could use my area which is TVA and uses lots of coal. So, some very selective micro spots can be mainly solar or wind. Some other areas will be mostly coal and maybe natural gas. Hence the reference to India and China. My guess is if somehow all electricity production is averaged around the world most will be from fossil fuels.

 

[sk47]

Earliest EVs were super costly to produce, were only produced to comply with CAFE requirements, and typically had a range of 100 miles or less. Companies that produced them hoped to only sell enough to fit their CAFE planning and not one more. Then FCA CEO Sergio Marchionne (rip) even famously publicly said about the Fiat 500e “please don’t buy this vehicle”. Because they lost a ton of money on every one produced beyond the CAFE balancing point. In walks Tesla with EVs that have 300+ mile ranges.

Sidenote…in an earlier position in my career at GM I was adjacent to the team that does consumer survey and profile work. One of the basic findings is that consumers lose interest in vehicles whose range (tank size x mpg) is less than 250 miles. As a result, GM targeted a minimum range of 300 miles for any new vehicles. There were a few exceptions, but those were typically discussed at length before moving forward.

So, EVs with 100 mile range were of interest to only the most diehard of diehard EV fans, but Tesla changed the game. Larger OEMs paid attention to Tesla and after longer study than should have been necessary concluded that consumers like electric vehicles IF they have long enough range and IF they can reliably charge them. Tesla has covered both of those bases and everybody else is playing catch up.


And I maintain that it is mature. It just needs to grow in scale with the growth in EV sales. That’s not difficult. All that’s needed is space and money. No new invention other than to improve process yield and efficiency. It is not a someday item. It is a parallel process that is well understood. When you get a chance, Google Li-Cycle.

There are several in play. My personal favorite is a pilot program that is in place in Kansas City that installs Level 2 chargers in street lamps. Makes sense, because street lamps already have power being delivered to them from the grid, so little additional wiring is required. What additional wiring that is needed to achieve the correct current delivery can simply follow the existing wiring paths. A lot of municipalities are looking at code modifications requiring new homes and housing developments to be wired for 240V to support Level 2 charging. Apartment buildings and complexes can then install a number of resident-accessible charging units. Residents won’t all be able to charge all of their vehicles every night all at once, but fact of the matter is, few people get gasoline every day. This generation of EVs have range of 260 - 350 miles (see my note on range in italics above) and can typically handle customers’ usual driving requirements with once per week charging. There are a number of companies that are beginning to specialize in installation of charging systems for multi-family housing developments.

One of the things that annoys me about today’s socio-political environment is everything has to be categorized as THIS or THAT. You’re either a tree-hugging EV lover or a knuckle-dragging ICE luddite. There’s actually a lot of room in between those extremes which is where most of the population resides, but people on each extreme of the spectrum spend way too much time placing those who don’t agree with them on the far other end of the spectrum. Delete ICE/EV and substitute Liberal / Conservative, First Amendment / Book Banning, immigration, et cetera, and you wind up with a population that feels like it has to label every interaction and generate hate for everybody who falls outside of their chosen belief bucket. Thus my fervent disdain for the “true-believer” bullshit label. None of you know enough about me to accurately make that call so just stay the f*** away from trying to label me. Not directed towards you specifically sk47, but making sure that those who feel the need to “label” me know you need to come with much better knowledge of me than you have, despite all I have already told you. (/rant)

Hello; Perhaps spin master fits. You are very good. Still come off as a true believer tho.

 

[martinjlm]

Data from a wealth management consultant - wow really good source. he fails to mention conversion efficiency. Just plain wrong.

Even a basic search on efficiency of BEV's and ICE engines will quickly answer your questions

From the article you posted:

Also, it isn’t clear that electric vehicles start with fully-charged batteries. There is very little discussion about this, but lithium ion batteries lose capacity over time. As one mechanic told me recently, “They never talk about how many Toyota Prius’s are gas engine only now.”

The reason people don't talk about it is because the batteries last 100's of thousands of miles so those Prius cars just keep on going as designed. Nissan Leaf batteries at 10 years old are still going strong, recycling companies are struggling to get enough batteries because they just keep on going

The interesting thing about this is most Prius (Prii?) use nickel metal hydride batteries, not lithium ion. Doh!!

 

[martinjlm]

Hello; Perhaps spin master fits. You are very good. Still come off as a true believer tho.

Don’t f***ing try to categorize me . I rarely block people, but this would put you in the express lane.

 

[jtmat]

Hello; The clue to this cherry picking is that you started out with solar panels on your own roof. I could use my area which is TVA and uses lots of coal. So, some very selective micro spots can be mainly solar or wind. Some other areas will be mostly coal and maybe natural gas. Hence the reference to India and China. My guess is if somehow all electricity production is averaged around the world most will be from fossil fuels.

We've been through that... several threads back. They are moving away from coal - even claim to have over 60% carbon free... have nuclear, dams, building a solar sites, etc.

You don't know where your energy comes from and can't remember a conversation from two months ago. Poor thing.

 

[sk47]

Don’t f***ing try to categorize me . I rarely block people, but this would put you in the express lane.

Hello; perhaps you do not understand the image you present so far. Even in your own words you stated "belief" about the key tenants of this Green +EV discussion. It follows then that since you have self-declared the belief, then we will see you as a true believer. Sort of a if the shoe fits thing.

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