Front Driver's Side Tire Too Far Forward?

[mustangpegasus51]

Hey All!

While parallel parking my 2020 PP1 A10 the other day, I ended up bumping the curb a couple of times trying to get as close as possible to it. When inspecting to see if anything was amiss, the passenger's side looks fine, no curb rash or anything like that. However, my driver's side front wheel looked off. It seems like this wheel is about 1/4" more forward in the wheel well, which to me gives the wheel a small or sunk-in appearance.

I'm taking to the dealer Tuesday to have a look, but wanted to know if there's anything I should specifically ask for to get checked. Photos below -- if anything seems obvious here that I'm missing, please let me know! Thanks!

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[Norm Peterson]

Can't tell anything from the pictures because they're not looking straight-on at the front wheel. Not even looking toward the front wheels from the same angle.


Norm

 

[mustangpegasus51]

Here's some more photos. Tried to get similar angles as possible. Distance between tire and fenders seems really close between each side, so I'm wondering if it's a simple alignment issue. Taking to dealer tomorrow, will see what they say.

Head on (left/right)

Passenger's side profile (mirrored)

Driver's side profile

 

[Norm Peterson]

Thanks for the pictures. The biggest thing I'm seeing different is the amount of strut & spring, and most of that still appears to be a photo angle thing.

Couple of thoughts . . . caster, camber, and toe all affect the orientation of the wheel & tire a little, so any adjustments there could affect the visual (slightly, not a whole lot). And once you get into the car, all four suspensions compress slightly, which changes clearances a little as well. Your car's sheetmetal is also subject to variations within some tolerance (1/16" to maybe as much as 1/8" for some dimensions). That's going to affect what you see as well (the wheels & tires could be perfect with respect to the chassis, but if the sheetmetal is off it'll make the wheels and tires look like they're the things that are 'off'.

Keep in mind that alignment settings need to be made for functional reasons, not 'appearance'.


Norm

 

[mustangpegasus51]

Took the car to the dealer. Here are my current measurements:

The first sheet they gave me had the "before" all green and the "current" measurements with a red for total toe.

So I showed them and they re-aligned it with the results above.

Questions:

• How did the front go out of alignment within hours of the first one being done earlier in the day?
• Does changing the front alignment affect the rear? Why did they change the rear at all here? (Also of note, the total toe didn't actually change in the end it seems, like I think they just changed the color.)

 

[FreePenguin]

You do rear first
Then front

Atleast that’s what two specialty shops told me. If you do front it supposedly messes up rear

I don’t know much about alignments but imo the toes I feel he could of gotten that in better. Mine was almost 0.00 kinda didn’t dial it in as much as he coukd

since 1st and second pic, looks to of gotten further out.
I think toe wears tires out

rear toe looks unacceptable

 

[Norm Peterson]

Took the car to the dealer. Here are my current measurements:

The first sheet they gave me had the "before" all green and the "current" measurements with a red for total toe.

So I showed them and they re-aligned it with the results above.

Questions:
How did the front go out of alignment within hours of the first one being done earlier in the day?

Would need the first sheet to even begin to guess.

Does changing the front alignment affect the rear? Why did they change the rear at all here? (Also of note, the total toe didn't actually change in the end it seems, like I think they just changed the color.)

It doesn't look like they did anything to the front toe except either turn the steering wheel a bit or adjust both toes the same amount in the same direction. That would get rid of the out-of-spec "Steer ahead" reading once the toes match, but the total toe would remain unchanged. Yes, it's "within spec", but an equal amount of total toe in is a better place to be for most street driving.

But the 'current' total toe is still essentially the same as the 'before' total toe at about -0.1° (toe out because the minus sign means 'out'). What I think they needed to do (assuming that the steering wheel was centered) was first adjust the left front from -0.14° (toe out) all the way to +0.05° (toe in) to match the right front, and then adjust left and right toes to re-center the steering wheel if necessary.

Steering the front tires jacks the front ride heights up/down a little due to caster, which could affect the rear readings minutely.


Norm

 

[mustangpegasus51]

Thanks everyone for your replies! Really do appreciate this community

I'm going to go to a specialized alignment shop (plenty around SoCal) in the next week or so and see if I can get dialed in a bit better.

As far as the appearance, Norm I'm thinking you're right on the money with imperfections in the body. I looked over my bill of lading from initial delivery, and found some photos taken by the delivery person (much better photographer than me!) prior to the car being loaded up. To meet it seems the angle/arch of the driver's side wheel well is slightly wider before it curves into the rocker.

I also was able to do some searching and saw that some others with similar appearance concerns (with good alignment) were pointing towards a shifted k-member. However, part of me doesn't get that i.e. if either subframe (or in a case of a really hard hit, the unibody) was shifted wouldn't there be a decent thrust angle?

Anyways here are pics from the delivery. Either way I'm leaning towards the vehicle being this way from the factory:

Driver's side:

Passenger's side (mirrored):

 

[mustangpegasus51]

An update! I took it to a performance alignment shop near me and honestly I think they did a great job evening her out and getting things dialed in:

The appearance actually looks a bit better too! Only thing that confused me was how quickly the left front wheel (the one that looked "off" in the first place) doesn't seem to stay aligned (it got out of specification again within two weeks) especially in regards to the toe. This time the caster was actually different on that left front wheel as well. Could it have been that the dealer didn't tighten things properly when doing the first alignment? I guess I'll just have to see on my next one to see if it's a recurring issue.

 

[mustangpegasus51]

Hey All!

So after this whole thing I still don't get how the caster changed between alignments that were done two weeks apart, on the front left wheel (from 6.8 - 6.7)

I know the other angles change over time (why we need alignments in the first place) but I thought caster wasn't supposed to change at all under normal circumstances.

 

[Norm Peterson]

A tenth of a degree of caster is probably just the result of how accurately the caster sweep was performed.

Caster is not measured directly. It's normally calculated from camber readings with the wheels steered to the right some number of degrees, again with the wheels steered the same number of degrees to the left, and the difference in camber readings used. There's a factor involved that depends on how many degrees the wheels were actually steered. So there's lots of ways for a tenth of a degree difference between caster calculations to creep in.


Norm

 

[mustangpegasus51]

So I went ahead and got the frame measured at a body shop.

Since getting the frame measured I've gotten the alignment checked twice. First time after a vacation/road trip that involved some uneven roads in March.

Since that alignment I got my tires rotated and balanced in May. However, sometime later in the summer the car felt wobbly around low speed turns. So I got the alignment checked one more time.

As the SAI went down between these two checks, I'm wondering if this measurement can be taken with a proverbial grain of salt like the caster readings.

 

[Albertcado]

Thanks everyone for your replies! Really do appreciate this community

I'm going to go to a specialized alignment shop (plenty around SoCal) in the next week or so and see if I can get dialed in a bit better.

As far as the appearance, Norm I'm thinking you're right on the money with imperfections in the body. I looked over my bill of lading from initial delivery, and found some photos taken by the delivery person (much better photographer than me!) prior to the car being loaded up. To meet it seems the angle/arch of the driver's side wheel well is slightly wider before it curves into the rocker.

I also was able to do some searching and saw that some others with similar appearance concerns (with good alignment) were pointing towards a shifted k-member. However, part of me doesn't get that i.e. if either subframe (or in a case of a really hard hit, the unibody) was shifted wouldn't there be a decent thrust angle?

Anyways here are pics from the delivery. Either way I'm leaning towards the vehicle being this way from the factory:

Driver's side:

Passenger's side (mirrored):

Did you ever find a fix to this? I'm in the same boat.

 

[mustangpegasus51]

@Albertcado I have not, but I'd be happy to work together to find a solution! I'm also in LA county, so we could even swap shop recommendations.

One thing I did that helped (slightly) with the front was getting the strut top mount on my LF wheel facing the right way. https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/strut-top-mount-notch-orientation.136097/

What I haven't mentioned in this thread was after measuring, the front wheels actually seem equidistant from the fenders. My front wheels are each about 15.5" from wheel center cap to top of fender opening, and about 15.75" from the center cap to front bumper, and also 15.75" going in the opposite direction (center cap to rear of fender opening.)

However, the rear is a different story. The ride height is about the same (15.5" also from center cap to top of fender opening, both sides) but the passenger's side rear wheel is about 1/4" to 1/2" closer to the fender than the rear driver's side wheel. (You can see that difference in the below images.)

I also got the Steeda dowels installed, looking back at my measurements it made minimal difference, if any. I honestly don't know if the rear is so off it makes the front look off when it's not, or vice versa.

I've also got this weird noise when turning right at low speed; it comes and goes: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/groan-from-lf-of-car-when-turning-right.164702/

Still, that noise comes from where the "off-looking" wheel is, so I really don't know.

Solutions I've thought of:

- Replace shocks, spring seats, strut mounts, and struts (maybe control arms too?) in case something is bent but not enough to be visible.

- Getting the Steeda bushing support kit: https://www.steeda.com/steeda-s550-mustang-irs-sub-frame-bushing-support-system-2015-555-4437.html (I remember reading somewhere that the dowels alone might not center the IRS as the bushings will deflect to fit the dowels.)

- Roll the dice on a new Mustang without these potential defects.

 

[Albertcado]

@Albertcado I have not, but I'd be happy to work together to find a solution! I'm also in LA county, so we could even swap shop recommendations.

One thing I did that helped (slightly) with the front was getting the strut top mount on my LF wheel facing the right way. https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/strut-top-mount-notch-orientation.136097/

What I haven't mentioned in this thread was after measuring, the front wheels actually seem equidistant from the fenders. My front wheels are each about 15.5" from wheel center cap to top of fender opening, and about 15.75" from the center cap to front bumper, and also 15.75" going in the opposite direction (center cap to rear of fender opening.)

However, the rear is a different story. The ride height is about the same (15.5" also from center cap to top of fender opening, both sides) but the passenger's side rear wheel is about 1/4" to 1/2" closer to the fender than the rear driver's side wheel. (You can see that difference in the below images.)

I also got the Steeda dowels installed, looking back at my measurements it made minimal difference, if any. I honestly don't know if the rear is so off it makes the front look off when it's not, or vice versa.

I've also got this weird noise when turning right at low speed; it comes and goes: https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/threads/groan-from-lf-of-car-when-turning-right.164702/

Still, that noise comes from where the "off-looking" wheel is, so I really don't know.

Solutions I've thought of:

- Replace shocks, spring seats, strut mounts, and struts (maybe control arms too?) in case something is bent but not enough to be visible.

- Getting the Steeda bushing support kit: https://www.steeda.com/steeda-s550-mustang-irs-sub-frame-bushing-support-system-2015-555-4437.html (I remember reading somewhere that the dowels alone might not center the IRS as the bushings will deflect to fit the dowels.)

- Roll the dice on a new Mustang without these potential defects.

Was your LF strut mount facing the wrong way from the factory? How'd you check if they were in the correct position or not before deciding to adjust that one?

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