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jtmat
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- Vert turbo!!!!
I think with the couple of "booms" we had, people are smart to keep their warranty.Lol a CARB legal tune with a warranty intrigues a lot of us it seems, how about that
Ford has put out a good product, IMO... I love the way the car drives in "D".
I'm starting to get into the "running errands" mode (vs. testing the tune I did over the weekend). It is a bit dangerous since you "get there" quickly due to the smooth pull in turbo.
The turbo sounds are appealing to me now as well... at first they were getting on my nerves (since I have the mufflers going as well). Since I drive in D now, I only hear the hissing when I accelerate quickly (I want to hear it then). I can also make it happen by getting into "s" or sport mode and playing around with the gas peddle.
Bit of fun... simple things. :lol:
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TheLion
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- #423
I think Car and Driver ran 13.9's on both the manual and auto EB's. They ran 13.7's on both the 2015 WRX manual and also the 2016 Camaro V6 manual.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-ford-mustang-23l-ecoboost-manual-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-subaru-wrx-manual-long-term-test-wrap-up
But yes, the FP tune should put the EB well into the mid 13's if not deep into the 13's while still being CARB legal and maintaining at least a supplemental warranty. for 36k miles assuming your not approaching that or over it already.
But I don't think there's been any failures to date of build dates past 5/15 and most of those were from hot tunes pushing the limits or from outright user errors (like running a "summer only" tune during the winter like we just saw with an Unleashed customer, or the Cobb Stage 3 tuned car that did not have many supporting modifications to deal with the added heat). This is one of the reasons Livernois highly recommends the 160F thermostat and also why they offer entire upgrade packages for cooling (well, other than an upgraded radiator). They offer a large FMIC, 160F thermostat, CAI and higher flow down pipe (which incidentally actually helps keep the turbine cooler as there's less heat buildup).
If your going to push significantly higher power you need to address cooling, bar none. There are 5 areas which you can do that: 1. FMIC 2. 160F thermostat 3. Larger capacity Radiator 4. 1 step colder plugs 5. Intake Air Temps (takes load off of the FMIC and turbo). Also there are different ways to tune. Both FP and Livernois use much different methods of tuning than many of the "shop tuners" and work with Ford engineering directly for their tuning, which is why they have the reputations they do. They are not tuning these cars using OBDII links either, which updates ever 200mS to 300mS, they use actual data loggers which read the actual sensor data at the same rate the ECU does, which is ever 8mS or 50x the rate. There's a much higher resolution required to see the minute details of each cycle that OBDII simply cannot provide.
Their software is also designed to work year round, instead of having a "summer" or "winter" tune because they don't alter parameters that invalidate portions of critical temperature related tables in the ECU software (aka that's why Livernois told me they do not change maximum boost, which would also be the same reason FP does not increase boost). There's no getting around these realities.
But there is no doubt that if you want to keep you car relatively stock and maintain warranty, the FP tune is really the only way to go and the improvements are quite dramatic considering the low cost. It's not a bad way to go at all, plus you can always step up to something like Livernois after your warranty period if you want that same level of reliabilty but can no longer depend on the warranty. If the car is tuned properly, the warranty really only protects you against Ford defects, which are much less common than user error related failures or even tune related failures.
A FP tuned mustang EB blows away it's competition, none of which to my knowledge offer a factory upgrade solution like that, which in my opinion makes it a fair comparison to compare a FP tuned EB to a stock 2016/17 Camaro V6 or 2015/16/17 WRX. You have the price of the car new + $700 which is pretty small.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-ford-mustang-23l-ecoboost-manual-test-review
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-subaru-wrx-manual-long-term-test-wrap-up
But yes, the FP tune should put the EB well into the mid 13's if not deep into the 13's while still being CARB legal and maintaining at least a supplemental warranty. for 36k miles assuming your not approaching that or over it already.
But I don't think there's been any failures to date of build dates past 5/15 and most of those were from hot tunes pushing the limits or from outright user errors (like running a "summer only" tune during the winter like we just saw with an Unleashed customer, or the Cobb Stage 3 tuned car that did not have many supporting modifications to deal with the added heat). This is one of the reasons Livernois highly recommends the 160F thermostat and also why they offer entire upgrade packages for cooling (well, other than an upgraded radiator). They offer a large FMIC, 160F thermostat, CAI and higher flow down pipe (which incidentally actually helps keep the turbine cooler as there's less heat buildup).
If your going to push significantly higher power you need to address cooling, bar none. There are 5 areas which you can do that: 1. FMIC 2. 160F thermostat 3. Larger capacity Radiator 4. 1 step colder plugs 5. Intake Air Temps (takes load off of the FMIC and turbo). Also there are different ways to tune. Both FP and Livernois use much different methods of tuning than many of the "shop tuners" and work with Ford engineering directly for their tuning, which is why they have the reputations they do. They are not tuning these cars using OBDII links either, which updates ever 200mS to 300mS, they use actual data loggers which read the actual sensor data at the same rate the ECU does, which is ever 8mS or 50x the rate. There's a much higher resolution required to see the minute details of each cycle that OBDII simply cannot provide.
Their software is also designed to work year round, instead of having a "summer" or "winter" tune because they don't alter parameters that invalidate portions of critical temperature related tables in the ECU software (aka that's why Livernois told me they do not change maximum boost, which would also be the same reason FP does not increase boost). There's no getting around these realities.
But there is no doubt that if you want to keep you car relatively stock and maintain warranty, the FP tune is really the only way to go and the improvements are quite dramatic considering the low cost. It's not a bad way to go at all, plus you can always step up to something like Livernois after your warranty period if you want that same level of reliabilty but can no longer depend on the warranty. If the car is tuned properly, the warranty really only protects you against Ford defects, which are much less common than user error related failures or even tune related failures.
A FP tuned mustang EB blows away it's competition, none of which to my knowledge offer a factory upgrade solution like that, which in my opinion makes it a fair comparison to compare a FP tuned EB to a stock 2016/17 Camaro V6 or 2015/16/17 WRX. You have the price of the car new + $700 which is pretty small.
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TheLion
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- #424
Here's the example of a recent failure: http://www.mustang6g.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66542&page=8
While we can speculate on the causes, there are some critical observations here: Cobb Stage 3 93 tune is their top tier "canned" tune, but he's running a BBK down pipe, cobb tunes their software for their down pipes, each mfg is a little different and may have different flow properties. There's no thermostat upgrade, no radiator upgrades, a blow off valve that bypasses the normal ECU controlled functions, a tune which pushes higher boost levels...there are so many mismatches here which can cause issues by themselves. Barring this is not a Ford defect that manifest itself (extremely rare), this would be a combination of mismatched critical components which lead to unsafe operating conditions the PCM was unable to predict, detect or manage.
Too many people assume all upgraded down pipes are the same or this manufacturers hardware is directly compatible with that manufacturers software...when modifying turbo cars, one needs to be very critical of their hardware and software choices to avoid mismatches for highly critical components.
Rule of thumb is, if it's stock compatible, usually your ok to use it with any "tune", obviously even OE. If it's not stock PCM software compatible, you should use what that tuner recommends as that's what they've likely tested the most, or even tested at all. Using another manufacturer may lead to engine function their tune cannot adequately predict or compensate for, leading to damage or catastrophic failure. Also know the limitations of the software (is the tune safe for all ambient such as FP / Livernois or is it season specific such as Unleashed for example?)
Case in point, the livernois Thunderstorm down pipe is 2.5" ID and one of the straightest down pipes on the market, it's going to react differently than the BBK which I believe is a 3" down pipe and may use a different catalyst as well has having different shape. The more mismatches you throw in, the more likely you are to have a catastrophic failure.
Generally radiators, FMIC's, thermostats, a fair amount of CAI's or ECU controlled BOV's are safe bets as they are all stock PCM compatible, they generally enhance OE operating parameters rather than alter them.
BOV's which bypass the ECU control, Down Pipes, Waste Gate Actuators, Cams etc. are highly critical of PCM tuning and not stock ECU compatible, so go with your tuners tested choices, if they haven't tested a component you want to upgrade (such as they have never tested any upgraded down pipe), you might be better off not upgraded that component or switching tuners.
When I eventually upgrade the down pipe in my 2016, I'm going with Livernoise Thunderstorm catted DP without a doubt even though there are solutions that are just as good of quality (perhaps even better like the CP-e) at cheaper / similar prices because that's what they have tested and it's a critical component.
I think if more people followed this level of care in choosing their upgrades there would be fewer failed motors (even though there are relatively few comparatively even as is).
While we can speculate on the causes, there are some critical observations here: Cobb Stage 3 93 tune is their top tier "canned" tune, but he's running a BBK down pipe, cobb tunes their software for their down pipes, each mfg is a little different and may have different flow properties. There's no thermostat upgrade, no radiator upgrades, a blow off valve that bypasses the normal ECU controlled functions, a tune which pushes higher boost levels...there are so many mismatches here which can cause issues by themselves. Barring this is not a Ford defect that manifest itself (extremely rare), this would be a combination of mismatched critical components which lead to unsafe operating conditions the PCM was unable to predict, detect or manage.
Too many people assume all upgraded down pipes are the same or this manufacturers hardware is directly compatible with that manufacturers software...when modifying turbo cars, one needs to be very critical of their hardware and software choices to avoid mismatches for highly critical components.
Rule of thumb is, if it's stock compatible, usually your ok to use it with any "tune", obviously even OE. If it's not stock PCM software compatible, you should use what that tuner recommends as that's what they've likely tested the most, or even tested at all. Using another manufacturer may lead to engine function their tune cannot adequately predict or compensate for, leading to damage or catastrophic failure. Also know the limitations of the software (is the tune safe for all ambient such as FP / Livernois or is it season specific such as Unleashed for example?)
Case in point, the livernois Thunderstorm down pipe is 2.5" ID and one of the straightest down pipes on the market, it's going to react differently than the BBK which I believe is a 3" down pipe and may use a different catalyst as well has having different shape. The more mismatches you throw in, the more likely you are to have a catastrophic failure.
Generally radiators, FMIC's, thermostats, a fair amount of CAI's or ECU controlled BOV's are safe bets as they are all stock PCM compatible, they generally enhance OE operating parameters rather than alter them.
BOV's which bypass the ECU control, Down Pipes, Waste Gate Actuators, Cams etc. are highly critical of PCM tuning and not stock ECU compatible, so go with your tuners tested choices, if they haven't tested a component you want to upgrade (such as they have never tested any upgraded down pipe), you might be better off not upgraded that component or switching tuners.
When I eventually upgrade the down pipe in my 2016, I'm going with Livernoise Thunderstorm catted DP without a doubt even though there are solutions that are just as good of quality (perhaps even better like the CP-e) at cheaper / similar prices because that's what they have tested and it's a critical component.
I think if more people followed this level of care in choosing their upgrades there would be fewer failed motors (even though there are relatively few comparatively even as is).
Regs
Well-Known Member
They mentioned with the 93' cobb thread the reason he went boom was from a bolt coming loose in his camshaft entering the piston chamber. That's not cooling, that just down right torque tolerance. Pistons rings warping, cracking, or rods bending are a sign of overheating, not bolts coming off or loose. If it was bad from the factory, we might never know, but one things for sure the tune did not help and they will not cover the fix.
And I agree with the downpipe's and even things like actuators. One you start messing around with turbo pressure, you will need some serious trust in your tuner and the tuner better know everything about your car.
I was no aware of a winter only or summer only tune. If I paid for a one-time tune, it better be for all seasons!
And I agree with the downpipe's and even things like actuators. One you start messing around with turbo pressure, you will need some serious trust in your tuner and the tuner better know everything about your car.
I was no aware of a winter only or summer only tune. If I paid for a one-time tune, it better be for all seasons!
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TheLion
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- #426
Yes, SOME tuners have a season tune, they require you to switch for certain temperature ranges. I know that FP, Livernois and Tune+ are all year around, so they are safe to operate in 4-season states. I cannot comment on others as I don't know, but I would imagine Cobb is supposed to be year around, however because they alter boost, their upper tier OTS tunes seem to be especially risky if your not using their bolt on parts, which is what they would have tuned with on their test mules. There are tons of Focus ST's with blown engines running Cobb Stage 3 93 tunes, most of them I've seen are NOT using Cobb's own bolt on parts which you are required to use with those tunes, they used a variety and mixture of other manufacturers down pipes, BOV's etc. in various combinations.
You may or may not be correct of the bolt failure, the cam phaser bolt failure is most likely a Ford factory defect which would have caused failure regardless, OE or tuned. However we may never know with absolute certainty, the cam phase angles are ECU controlled, hydraulically powered (via oil).
The cams can only actually change phase angle during a specific window of each engine cycle because the stress is too great for them to change angle when the cam is fully loaded by the valve springs, so it may be possible theoretically the ECU software could alter that or cause a condition which the OE control algorithm is no longer valid under all real operating conditions and attempts to change phase angle too early or late, adding stress. Perhaps it attempts to change the phase angle slightly earlier but cannot fully overcome the vavlve spring tension (inoperable region), resulting in a the cam tapping back or rotating back against its rest position after attempting to change phase or hydraulically over loaded, I don't know with any certainty, but pointing out possibilities we haven't really investigated and made assumptions on.
This is likely why Ford would put the blame on the tune even though most of us would assume this to be a Ford defect automatically. It MAY or MAY NOT be. I didn't design the PCM software or engine, so I don't know in that much detail to say weather this is possible or not, but I DO know that what I said about the cam operation is true and it's true for all TIVVT DOHC engines, NA or TDI alike as they use the same schemes for change the cam phase angle.
jbailer
Well-Known Member
I'm certain that bolt coming loose had nothing to do with his mods or the Cobb tune. Not having a radiator upgrade or thermostat upgrade definitely has nothing to do with it and those I believe are very specific to what LMS recommends.
As far as the difference between the BBK and Cobb downpipe in the Cobb tune, I'm sure that is negligible too. We had a member go through the process of welding in bungs and testing the pressure drop across different parts of the exhaust and found the catback makes almost no difference at all and the downpipe was relatively small. The only difference I could see there is whether it was a catted DP vs non.
Having said that though, I COMPLETELY agree with the spirit of your message! I think most of the blown engines we've seen can be attributed to user error. Too many people not communicating with their tuners properly and yours were very good points. There was another that had a tune and then combined the tune with the JMS add-ons. When you hear of people doing that crap, it shows they clearly don't understand what they are doing first of all but second, they didn't share that with their tuner.
The bolt coming loose, that I believe is part of the statistical odds of what happens with thousands of engines built, just bad luck. IMO, when it is diagnosed as such, Ford should cover that under warranty. No way a tune or mods made that come loose.
As far as the difference between the BBK and Cobb downpipe in the Cobb tune, I'm sure that is negligible too. We had a member go through the process of welding in bungs and testing the pressure drop across different parts of the exhaust and found the catback makes almost no difference at all and the downpipe was relatively small. The only difference I could see there is whether it was a catted DP vs non.
Having said that though, I COMPLETELY agree with the spirit of your message! I think most of the blown engines we've seen can be attributed to user error. Too many people not communicating with their tuners properly and yours were very good points. There was another that had a tune and then combined the tune with the JMS add-ons. When you hear of people doing that crap, it shows they clearly don't understand what they are doing first of all but second, they didn't share that with their tuner.
The bolt coming loose, that I believe is part of the statistical odds of what happens with thousands of engines built, just bad luck. IMO, when it is diagnosed as such, Ford should cover that under warranty. No way a tune or mods made that come loose.
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TheLion
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- #428
I would agree with you on this one, it's most likely a factory defect, which is what I stated above, however Ford may argue differently. Logically the user could make a case however, by talking to a tuner and getting a detailed idea of how the ECU controls phase angle, if its possible for the ECU to cause added stress on the phasers by altering the change point. As I stated above the cams phasors aren't actually strong enough to change phase angle at any time, there is only a window in each engine cycle which the combined valve spring resistance is low enough to allow the phasors to operate. Attempting operation outside of that window could cause some pretty big issues.
If it's not, it would be a difficult argument for Ford to blame the modifications. No this was not a heat related issue, but there have been blown engines which had little added cooling but were running some pretty hot tunes, heat was likely a big factor.
If you don't properly manage heat, you get detonation and accelerated wear. Heat management is highly critical in TDI engines, especially when pushing higher power. Just look at how much the crappy FMIC affects engine performance. Cooler thermostats are very common among performance engine upgrades. Problem is many peopled don't want to take the time to make the change as it's messy.
jbailer
Well-Known Member
Agreed completely, that is why my first upgrade was to an ATM intercooler. As far as the thermostat, that is another tricky subject. That should be incorporated in the tune or not done at all. It's not like in the old days where that was one of the first things we did on the V8s and needed no supporting mods.
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TheLion
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- #430
One more thought, then I'll shut up, promise. I also spoke to Livernoise about Low RPM loading. I know a while back there was a thread about LSPI etc. People seem to freak out over low RPM loading.
While I see no practical reason to got WOT at 1500 to 2000 RPM unless your stress testing, Livernois said they start most of their 5th gear WOT dyno pulls from just 2100 RPM and have tested down to 1500 RPM!
I would imagine the OE and FP software is actually safe to load down that low as well. I've never had an NA engine have any issues from WOT at low RPM, they may not make good power, but a properly designed and running engine should not be unsafe in any throttle input condition the user could potentially command.
I cannot comment on other vendors, only FP, Livernois and Ford OE because they share a similar mindset regarding reliability, how they test and what conditions they expect the engine to operate safely under, but just some food for thought.
While I see no practical reason to got WOT at 1500 to 2000 RPM unless your stress testing, Livernois said they start most of their 5th gear WOT dyno pulls from just 2100 RPM and have tested down to 1500 RPM!
I would imagine the OE and FP software is actually safe to load down that low as well. I've never had an NA engine have any issues from WOT at low RPM, they may not make good power, but a properly designed and running engine should not be unsafe in any throttle input condition the user could potentially command.
I cannot comment on other vendors, only FP, Livernois and Ford OE because they share a similar mindset regarding reliability, how they test and what conditions they expect the engine to operate safely under, but just some food for thought.
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tw557
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It is still confusing to actually what happened to the motor above. The bolt can't break off and enter the combustion chamber and hit the piston. So did the broken bolt cause something like the valve to hit the piston.
arghx7
Well-Known Member
The stock PCM software has a preignition protection mode, and you would hope that the durability testing was all done at low speed/high load, same with the FP tune. That means running the engine in a lab continuously for many hours in LSPI prone conditions.
If someone is really concerned about preignition, they can ask their tuner to limit boost/limit torque/whatever method preferred under say 2500rpm.
You shouldn't ever have to actually keep your foot off the gas pedal at 1000rpm or whatever. The PCM should be tuned in an idiot proof way, especially since it's electronic control over throttle, boost, etc.
jtmat
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Luckily us armchair race car drivers won't have to guess much longer... [MENTION=25057]SteedaGT[/MENTION] is taking his car to the track after install...
To be honest though, does anyone who gets this tune really care that much if they are in the 13s?
I'm guessing the targeted audience wants a "little more power" and for the transmission to be smoother. Ford delivered both...
Not sure anyone is really looking at this tune to be a speed demon. Maybe the reason why we have not seen many purchasers care about 0-60....
jbailer
Well-Known Member
That is a very good point. The factory tune was really lacking in 2 major areas.
1) It had no power at the top end. It would get up to high RPM and just hang there lifelessly.
2) The shifting was terrible for the autos.
The Ford Performance tune addresses both of those decently and provides a warranty, not bad.
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TheLion
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Just wanted to throw in some new info for the FP tune (yah I have Livernois, but the FP tune was one of my recomended tunes on the TST Optamization thread due to the warranty support).
FP informed me their tune disables the sound symposer. I unplugged mine, but I honestly believe that does not disable it. I have a suspicion that the sound sympose uses multiple inputs, one being the high sensitivity blue tooth mic. The rear mic is designed to catch a particular frequency range which can then be amplified and imposed along with the full sound range of the engine.
Here's why I believe that. After disconnecting the receiver / mic in the rear of the headliner, my engine seemed actually louder, not quieter, but far more middy and hollow. At first I thought this might be due to the BlowFish bracket, which caused a small gap in the rubber insulator around the shifter (aka I was hearing more from the exhaust).
I removed the blow fish bracket (for more than just sound reasons). Sound didn't change much. I still heard a lot of mechanical knocks, ticks and tocs. I could hear them much more distinctly inside the cabin than I could outside with the hood open.
After plugging the speaker back in, I can't really hear them distinctly any more and it certainly sounds much less middy / tinny. I believe the sound Symposer is still active, but now lacking the lower frequency input, so it's amplifying the 20-20kHz range equally. Without the rear tuned microphone, which amplifies lower frequency sounds and imposes them over the normal full spectrum to give that deeper note, it just sounded like crap.
I think the only real way to disable the sound symposer is to either pull fuse 27 or alter the PCM software and disable it like FP does. I'm waiting to see if Livernoise can or is willing to do this (they did for the active grill shudders). Everyone's ears are different, but I have a high sensitivity to sound and excellent hearing, so I tend to be very picky about these things, I don't think this this misinterpretation.
FP informed me their tune disables the sound symposer. I unplugged mine, but I honestly believe that does not disable it. I have a suspicion that the sound sympose uses multiple inputs, one being the high sensitivity blue tooth mic. The rear mic is designed to catch a particular frequency range which can then be amplified and imposed along with the full sound range of the engine.
Here's why I believe that. After disconnecting the receiver / mic in the rear of the headliner, my engine seemed actually louder, not quieter, but far more middy and hollow. At first I thought this might be due to the BlowFish bracket, which caused a small gap in the rubber insulator around the shifter (aka I was hearing more from the exhaust).
I removed the blow fish bracket (for more than just sound reasons). Sound didn't change much. I still heard a lot of mechanical knocks, ticks and tocs. I could hear them much more distinctly inside the cabin than I could outside with the hood open.
After plugging the speaker back in, I can't really hear them distinctly any more and it certainly sounds much less middy / tinny. I believe the sound Symposer is still active, but now lacking the lower frequency input, so it's amplifying the 20-20kHz range equally. Without the rear tuned microphone, which amplifies lower frequency sounds and imposes them over the normal full spectrum to give that deeper note, it just sounded like crap.
I think the only real way to disable the sound symposer is to either pull fuse 27 or alter the PCM software and disable it like FP does. I'm waiting to see if Livernoise can or is willing to do this (they did for the active grill shudders). Everyone's ears are different, but I have a high sensitivity to sound and excellent hearing, so I tend to be very picky about these things, I don't think this this misinterpretation.
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