Ford 'Big Data Community'

[Bullitt0819]

Wow. Didn't realize there was such a large 'black helicopters' contingent on this forum. You guys really think Ford is gonna say "We see you did 63mph in a 55 zone on CA Hwy 219 on Friday, Feb 15. We're gonna void your warranty, notify the CHP, and we don't ever want you to drop $50 large on one of our products again. Next time, buy a Camaro."

This from the company that built a 160mph+ car, with 'Track Apps,' 'Drag Mode,' 'Launch Assist,' etc. etc. You don't suppose Ford would actually want to know how you're using their products so they could improve them, maybe add some of the 'features' their customers bitch about not having (and give you a few bucks for your trouble)? Believe it or not, Ford likely isn't paying a whole lot of attention to what random (possible) owners say in random internet forums, but they might just listen to a paying customer who is willing to give a little time and effort to help them improve their product. Maybe, just maybe, Ford is considering ceasing production of the Mustang, and is trying to gauge the loyalty of current owners in order to decide if they should throw in the towel or, worse yet, make it a hybrid sedan with a CVT?

And, rest assured, I'm gonna tell them "I want a damn oil temperature gauge; real or virtual, and I want it NOW!"

Sponsored

 

[ctandc72]

Wow. Didn't realize there was such a large 'black helicopters' contingent on this forum. You guys really think Ford is gonna say "We see you did 63mph in a 55 zone on CA Hwy 219 on Friday, Feb 15. We're gonna void your warranty, notify the CHP, and we don't ever want you to drop $50 large on one of our products again. Next time, buy a Camaro."

This from the company that built a 160mph+ car, with 'Track Apps,' 'Drag Mode,' 'Launch Assist,' etc. etc. You don't suppose Ford would actually want to know how you're using their products so they could improve them, maybe add some of the 'features' their customers bitch about not having (and give you a few bucks for your trouble)? Believe it or not, Ford likely isn't paying a whole lot of attention to what random (possible) owners say in random internet forums, but they might just listen to a paying customer who is willing to give a little time and effort to help them improve their product. Maybe, just maybe, Ford is considering ceasing production of the Mustang, and is trying to gauge the loyalty of current owners in order to decide if they should throw in the towel or, worse yet, make it a hybrid sedan with a CVT?

And, rest assured, I'm gonna tell them "I want a damn oil temperature gauge; real or virtual, and I want it NOW!"

Ford doesn't care about loyalty. They care about selling vehicles. Why do you think they want your data? Cause it makes them money. Thinking that this data Ford gets doesn't go anywhere else is just naive. Profit margins have nothing to do with black helicopters.

 

[Bullitt0819]

And I thought I was cynical. Please tell my how Ford is going to make money from monitoring my usage of its product? By selling it? To whom, Chevrolet? Ford won't know anything about my activities away from my car, and I suspect they'll find my wanderings around the Central Valley rather boring. Outside of driving like a bat out of hell, I don't do anything illegal.

If you have a Facebook page, an Alexa device or any other digital 'assistant,' a credit card, OnStar, an account with any bank or store, have visited a doctor in the last 10 years--I could go on--you've already given up more data than you can possibly imagine.

Rather than just bloviating, I'll go through the process and see what comes of it. Maybe I'll regret it, but armchair speculating doesn't answer any questions.

 

[ZX3ST]

They DO stand to make some money selling that info to the insurance companies.

I won't do it for the same reason I won't do the optional tracker for an insurance discount. Sure, it's optional now. Then in a few years, after gaining enough user base, they use it as a way to charge people extra for either their driving habits or the fact they didn't subscribe. Plus there's the obvious argument of "it's none of their business". Warranty coverage is the least of my concern.

They're doing the same thing with the "optional" health screenings for medical insurance. Sure, it's not required. We'll just charge you another $1500 a year if you don't do it. This is the same program that started out as a discount opportunity. That's not speculation or bloviating. They're actually doing that.

 

[Bullitt0819]

re: "They DO stand to make some money selling that info to the insurance companies."

You got proof? Let's see it.

Ford's 'promise:'

"To reiterate, this is a research and development initiative to support new product development [emphasis mine]. Please be assured that Morpace* is not engaged in sales, advertising, or publicity of any kind. Morpace will not attempt to sell you anything now or in the future because of your participation in this program, and all information provided will remain confidential. Data collected from the vehicle logger device will be recorded on an individual basis; however, survey data will be reported in aggregate."

More info:

https://bigdata.wayne.edu/2018_pres...data_drive_-_supporting_product_analytics.pdf



https://dataconomy.com/2015/08/how-big-data-brought-ford-back-from-the-brink/


If you folks distrust Ford so much, why did you buy their cars?


* The company Ford enlisted to conduct their data collection.

 

[ZX3ST]

I don't necessarily distrust Ford, but I'm also not going to hand them that level of information. You're gonna need more than a handpicked powerpoint with some seriously vague bulletpoints to convince me this doesn't go past the original intent at a later date. That's the point of my argument. It all starts out harmless enough.

By all means, knock yourself out. But don't accuse everyone of wearing tinfoil hats. Past performance doesn't lie. I want to see the Tees and Cees of that agreement.

 

[ZX3ST]

Side note: I think it's kind of funny that their video shows mostly vehicles they will no longer offer for sale in North America. lol

 

[Bullitt0819]

re: "Past performance doesn't lie"

"Past performance" of what, exactly? You have evidence Ford has sold customer data to insurance companies? Again, let's see the proof; otherwise, it IS 'tinfoil hat' BS.

 

[EcoVert]

Ford's 'promise:'

"To reiterate, this is a research and development initiative to support new product development [emphasis mine]. Please be assured that Morpace* is not engaged in sales, advertising, or publicity of any kind. Morpace will not attempt to sell you anything now or in the future because of your participation in this program, and all information provided will remain confidential. Data collected from the vehicle logger device will be recorded on an individual basis; however, survey data will be reported in aggregate."

Ever heard of a data breach

 

[ZX3ST]

re: "Past performance doesn't lie"

"Past performance" of what, exactly? You have evidence Ford has sold customer data to insurance companies? Again, let's see the proof; otherwise, it IS 'tinfoil hat' BS.

I don't have any proof, of Ford specifically, engaging in this practice lately. My stance is that they could, and might do so in the future. Possibly without consent (opt-out instead of opt-in). Again, this isn't about what they're doing right now, in this very specific instance.

Ford is bleeding right now. Large corporations in general do not have a great track record with this kind of thing. Backed into a corner, they WILL do things to satisfy the board of directors and their shareholders. If that means they revise their original agreement, I would not put it past them. If that's "tin-foil hat BS" then I guess I need to go buy some Reynolds wrap.

This exact scenario has been discussed intermittently among news outlets since 2015.

I'll answer your challenge with another: let's see their Terms and Conditions. You wanted proof they're selling data? Let's see proof they're not.
EDIT: revised for clarity.

 

[Bullitt0819]

"Ever heard of a data breach[sic]"

Yep. Do you have a credit rating or score? Ever pay for anything with a credit card? Are you on any social website? Do you have online accounts at, well, anywhere? If your answer is yes to any of these, your data has been breached (you're really reaching BTW). Somehow, I think hackers will be less interested in my vehicular activity than my SS number, my credit card numbers, my email address, my bank account numbers, my usernames and passwords to all of the above, etc. Before you ask, Ford has none of that data on me since I paid for my Bullitt with cash (but it wouldn't cause me to lose sleep if they did). I check all my vital accounts at least daily.

If you don't believe me, go here: https://haveibeenpwned.com/

Lest you think I'm 'naive,' I have a degree in computer science and I worked in the computer industry as a software engineer and engineering manager for over 30 years. Data security wasn't my specialty--it wasn't a 'thing' when I matriculated, or I might have at least minored in it--but I know how the most common attacks occur (more often than not, it's a simple 'phishing' expedition that finds an admin assistant that wants to be helpful, or an SSL cert that someone forgot to renew*, or failure to quickly install patches for known vulnerabilities--see 'Equifax'--or a DNS hijack, and I could go on and on with a little quick research). As an engineering manager, I was responsible for any 'breach' that happened on my watch; fortunately, none did (but it was a less hostile time).

* That's why this site, and most other 'legit' ones, now have 'https://' in their URLs (or URIs; I could never figure out the difference).

EDIT: Clarify response.

 

[Bullitt0819]

I don't have any proof, of Ford specifically, engaging in this practice lately. My stance is that they could, and might do so in the future. Possibly without consent (opt-out instead of opt-in). Again, this isn't about what they're doing right now, in this very specific instance.

Ford is bleeding right now. Large corporations in general do not have a great track record with this kind of thing. Backed into a corner, they WILL do things to satisfy the board of directors and their shareholders. If that means they revise their original agreement, I would not put it past them. If that's "tin-foil hat BS" then I guess I need to go buy some Reynolds wrap.

This exact scenario has been discussed intermittently among news outlets since 2015.

I'll answer your challenge with another: let's see their Terms and Conditions. You wanted proof they're selling data? Let's see proof they're not.
EDIT: revised for clarity.

"I don't have any proof, of Ford specifically, engaging in this practice lately. My stance is that they could, and might do so in the future. Possibly without consent (opt-out instead of opt-in). Again, this isn't about what they're doing right now, in this very specific instance."

Weasel words if ever there were. Still, no proof of your accusations, just vague 'well, this could happen and that could happen, and a corporation did this once, and ..."

"Ford is bleeding right now."

Yeah, they could slip a magic potion in your car that causes the car to dissolve at 100K miles, forcing you to buy another. Jeez, dude, how do you sleep at night? Disclaimer: my late father worked at Ford for a couple years as a service rep, so I'm partial to the company, and really don't think Bill Ford is out to get us; he's just trying to keep the company with his great-grandfather's name on it from going the way of the buggy whip makers. They also build enthusiast machines like the Raptor, the GT--all iterations--the GT350/500 and, of course, my favorite, the Bullitt. Dad had some stories, but when the time came we always bought new Fords (well, except for the LS, which was a British concoction, but it's been a good car and my mother refuses to get anything else).

"This exact scenario has been discussed intermittently among news outlets since 2015."

I surrender. Your logic-fu--and overwhelming data--is too great for me. Your faith in 'news outlets' brings tears to my eyes.

Good point on the T&Cs, though. I will investigate, and let you know if Ford admits they might sell my pant size--a couple inches more than it should be, to be honest--to the highest bidder. All I see is some nerds enamored of 'big data' when we all know they should just read Mustang forums and Jalopnik to realize what cars they should build (hint: brown diesel station wagons with manual transmission; I just want a goddammed oil temp gauge).

ps. There are real things to worry about now. We're heading into another Cold War, with less steady hands on the buttons, and we barely avoided annihilation in the first one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls). Data breaches happen every day, whether you hear about them or not, and they're way down on my list of worries. The data Pandora's Box was opened a long time ago.

EDIT: Punctuation. I'm kinda anal-retentive about spelling and grammar, and facts, and data, and stuff. Also, I think Bill is Henry's great-grandson; there was Henry, Edsel, Henry II ('Deuce') and Bill, IIRC.

 

[el-guapin]

...

 

[ctandc72]

You're going to believe what you believe. That's great. I'm not trying to convince you otherwise. You posted this and asked what people thought. People tell you and you call them conspiracy theorists. You just backed up the point I was trying to make when you mentioned social media, credit score etc etc.

Tell you what - when you agree to this - did you click yes or agree to a terms and conditions? Might be interesting to read those, including all the fine print. You very well could be right - but I'm a cynic (realist) targeted marketing in today's age makes more money than anyone wants to admit.

I work in the IT security world. I can tell you that most people / companies never even bother with the terms and conditions.
I have several good friends that work around and in targeted marketing.

Truth is? Digital security does not exist. If the computer or server holding the information is hooked to a network - it's accessible. But my reply wasn't about security.

Post up those terms and conditions. I could very well be dead wrong.

 

[Bullitt0819]

...You posted this and asked what people thought. ...

No, I didn't ('ask what people thought'). Here is my original post, in its entirety (emphasis mine, hopefully there's no more reading comprehension fails):

"Anybody else been pitched this by Ford (well, a data gathering outfit working for Ford)? They install a data collector that transmits to Ford, and you take a survey once a month. They give $100 to start, and you get entered in some sort of lottery for (unspecified) goodies. The $100 is no big deal; I did it out of curiosity. I don't believe Ford would sell a 480 HP car then squawk when someone drove it as intended. And, if Ford uses it to build a better 'Stang, well y'all owe me ;)"

In case it's still not clear to somebody, I just wondered if anybody else had been asked to do this. That's when the black helicopter contingent chimed in and excoriated me for giving up my precious bodily fluids (or something). I really didn't expect that response; I'm as private and suspicious as anybody--and at least as computer, IT, internet and data savvy as anybody on this forum--and this looked harmless to me, and if it helps Ford stay in business, at least through my warranty period, well that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned.

Here's the T&C, in its entirety (except for my personal info). Mostly EULA boilerplate, and it seemed to me Ford was more concerned about me messin' with their stuff.

TL;DR: "Ford Motor Company (“Ford”) is performing this study (“Big Data Drive”) to understand how our vehicles are used and to support research and development."

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Specifically, you agree that you shall not –directly or indirectly –sell, export, re-export, transfer, divert, or otherwise dispose of any products, software, or technology (including products derived from or based on such technology) received from Ford under these Terms to any destination, entity, or person prohibited by any applicable laws or regulations of the U.S. or any other jurisdiction without obtaining prior authorization from the competent government authorities as required by those laws and regulations. Further, because Ford is based in the U.S., you represent and warrant that: (i) you are not located in a country that is subject to a government embargo, or that has been designated by any country’s government as a “terrorist supporting” country, and (ii) that you are not listed on any government list of prohibited or restricted parties as specified in the laws and regulations listed above. This export control clause shall survive termination or cancellation of these Terms. DocuSign Envelope ID: D999F7A3-281A-4E22-ABF8-E3C947F8C690




DocuSign Envelope ID: D999F7A3-281A-4E22-ABF8-E3C947F8C6901120. Changes, Updates We may change these Terms, or the Service or any of its parts at any time. We will endeavor to alert you through the Service of changes to the Terms. Youruse of the Service after any changes are implemented will be considered acceptance of such changes. If you object to any changes to the Service or to these Terms, your sole recourse is to stop using the Service. 21. Employees Use of this Service by Ford employees, including contract, agency and supplemental, is completely voluntary and will have no impact on your employment. Time spent using the Service outside of work hours is not compensable. If you have questions, please talk with your supervisor before downloading or registering for this Service. 22. Miscellaneous Entire Agreement. These Terms (including any supplemental or other terms referenced herein) constitute the entire agreement regarding the Service. If a court determines that any term or condition in these Terms is illegal or unenforceable, then such term will be eliminated and the remaining terms and conditions will remain in full force and effect. Our failure to exercise or enforce any right or provision of these Terms shall not constitute a waiver of such right or provision. Severability, Waiver. If a court determines that any term or condition in these Terms is illegal or unenforceable, then such term will be eliminated and the remaining terms and conditions will remain in full force and effect. Our failure to exercise or enforce any right or provision of these Terms shall not constitute a waiver of such right or provision. If any provision of these Terms is found by a court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid, the parties nevertheless agree that the court should endeavor to give effect to the parties’ intentions as reflected in the provision, and the other provisions of these Terms remain in full force and effect. Assignment. We can assign these Terms in whole or in part to anyone we choose. You can't assign your rights or obligations under these Terms to anyone else without our prior consent. Force Majeure. Neither we, nor our service providers will be responsible for the failure to provide the Service to you if caused by any of the following: any act or omission (including interruption of cellular service) of anyservice provider; system failures or shortages; damage to our-designated Customer Assistance Center, any land or wireless communications networks or the GPS system; acts of nature, labor strikes or war; or any other act or event that is outside ofDocuSign Envelope ID: D999F7A3-281A-4E22-ABF8-E3C947F8C69012our reasonable control. UNDER ANY OF THESE CIRCUMSTANCES, WE MAY AT OUR OPTION SUSPEND OR TERMINATE ALL OR SOME OF THE SERVICES OR THESE TERMS WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO YOU AND WITHOUT ANY LIABILITY; MOREOVER, YOU WILL NOT BE ENTITLED TO ANY REFUND OR CREDIT. Headings. The headings in these Terms are for convenience only and have no legal or contractual effect. 23. Operator / Contact Us The Service is operated by Ford Motor Company, One American Road, Dearborn, Michigan 48126 United States of America. If you have any questions, comments, or claims regarding the Service you may contact us by finding your local contact information by going to http://corporate.ford.com/our-company/country-websites, or contacting us at: Telephone 313-910-4949 (U.S.) 800-232-5952 (TDD for the hearing impaired) Available 8:00 am -5:00 pm EST Monday –Friday E-Mail Address [email protected] ________________________________ Participant CDS ID if a Ford Employee ________________________________ Participant name (PRINTED)______________________________________________________________Participant [deleted] Big Data Drive Participation AgreementFord Motor Company, Dearborn, MichiganPurpose of this Research: Ford Motor Company (“Ford”) is performing this study (“Big Data Drive”) to understand how our vehicles are used and to support research and development.Study Procedure:Hardware, consisting of an OpenXC device to be connected to the OBD-II port of the vehicle(“data logger”)and an android phone (“transmission device”)(“Ford-issuedHardware”), will be mailed to you. You will be provided instructions on how to installthe data logger on your vehicleand how to pair the transmission device. The Ford-issued Hardwareenables thecollection, storage and transmissionof data(“Data”)detected from the OBD-II port of the vehicle’s controller area network (CAN) bus, a communications system in your vehicle that connects various sensors and devices. You will operate the vehicleas you normally would in your daily life without any instructions, obligations, or assignments from Ford.The Studywill be conducted throughout this year, and it may roll over into next year. Risks: There are no known physical or psychological risks associated with participation in this study. The data logging hardware has no known effects on the operation of your vehicle.Data Collected: Data that may be collected by Ford includes the following,or substantially similar data: 1.Date and time of data transmission2.Vehicle Identification Number (VIN)3.Odometer (mileage)4.Vehicle speed5.Braking conditions6.Steering angle7.Engine and transmission parameters (e.g., temperature, RPM)8.Diagnostic codes9.Infotainment use (e.g. radio station selection)10.Location-based data (such as direction heading, latitude and longitude, also known as Global Positioning System (GPS) data)11.Wireless data utilization (amount of data used, but not internet traffic)12.Feature utilization(e.g. remote unlock/lock, geo-fencing usage)As the vehicle is driven, data will be collected with this Ford-issued Hardware and transmittedovera secure internet connection to a storage server from which Ford can analyze.Privacy: Any personallyidentifiable information (PII) collected in the Study will be used for technical supportand for product/servicesresearch, development,and improvementpurposes,and only available to individuals with a legitimate business need to know. PII isany information that can identify a unique individual,or be identified to that individual. In this study, PIImay include your name, VIN, precise locationor other information collected from the Ford-issued Hardwarethat is identifiable to you.PII may be shared outside of Ford with any third parties that support the Study, who are subject to confidentiality restrictions.The Data collected will not be shared with others, except where required by law or to protect the rights or property of Ford.This Data may be aggregated or otherwise anonymized or de-identified by Ford, and such anonymous data may be used or shared with third parties for any purpose.DocuSign Envelope ID: D999F7A3-281A-4E22-ABF8-E3C947F8C690Big Data Drive Participation AgreementFord Motor Company, Dearborn, MichiganFreedom to Withdrawand Termination of Study: If you have any questions about the Study, please do not hesitate to ask at any time. You may withdraw from the Study at any timeby sending a written request to withdraw tothe program coordinator [email protected] collected up to point of withdrawal will continue to be used consistent with this agreement.You must return the Ford-issued Hardware when the Study ends or you withdraw.Release of Liability & Assumption of Risk: I hereby release, waive,discharge and agree not to sue FordMotor Company, itsrespective officers,employees,agents, servants, subsidiaries,andaffiliates(collectively, the “Releasees”) in connection with any liability,claims, demands,actions and causesof action whatsovever arising out of or related to anyloss, damage, or injury,includingdeath, that may be sustained by meor any authorized driver of my vehicle, or any of the property belonging to me(including, but not limited to, vehicle, mobile device, or any other related hardware)from any cause whatsoever, arising in connection with my participation in the Study. I hereby acknowledge that I am voluntarily participating in the Study. I voluntarily assume full responsibility forany risks of loss, property damage or personal injury, including death, that may be sustained by meor any authorized driver, or any loss or damage to property owned by me, as a result of being engaged in the Study.I further agree to indemnify and hold harmless the Releasees from any loss, liability, damage or costs, including court costs and attorney fees that they may incur due to my participation in the Study.It is my express intent that this Big Data Drive Participation Agreement, Release of Liability & Assumption of Risk (“Agreement”) shall bind the members of my family and spouse, if I am alive, and my heirs, assigns and personal representative, if I am deceased, and shall be deemed as a release, waiver, discharge and covenant not to sue the Releasees. I hereby further agree that this Agreement shall be construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Michigan.Miscellaneous: I understand and agreethat I will not be compensated for my participation in this Study or any time spent driving and that this action does not constitute work for which I am employed. Participant's Permission: By signing this Agreement,Iacknowledge and represent that I havereadthe same,understand it and sign it voluntarily as my own free act and deed;no oral representation, statement, or inducements, apart from the foregoing written agreement, have been made.I am either (a) the registered owner of the vehicle or (b) I have the authoritydesignated to me by the registered ownerto sign this participation agreement;and I have the required auto insurance. I amat least eighteen (18)years of ageandfully competent. I amin possession of a DocuSign Envelope ID: D999F7A3-281A-4E22-ABF8-E3C947F8C690
Big Data Drive Participation AgreementFord Motor Company, Dearborn, Michiganvalid driver's license, and do not believe there is any reason why I should not participate in this Study. I will inform all authorized drivers of my vehiclethat I am participating in the Study. I am participating in the Study of my own free will and acknowledge that the opportunity to participate in this Studyis good and validconsideration for the obligations that I voluntarily accept herein. I agree to voluntarily participate to the best of my ability.Vehicle Description: Make: ______________Model: ________________Year: _____________________________________________________Participant name (PRINTED)_____________________________________________ ______________________ ___________________________Participant Signature [deleted]

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