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TomcatDriver

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What Mustang needs to really take over the segment is a descent ad campaign. I see Challenger commercials all the time and that's why I believe Challenger sales haven't really dropped off.
This is all a matter of perspective. The Challenger commercials are entirely too juvenile for my taste.
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edco

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Ford's problem is that they have new products and declining sales... don't get me wrong, I love Mustangs- I've had 10 of them from my 66 GT to my 2015 (which was a nightmare that Ford would never fix), but when they are outsold by a 10 yr old platform that has had one major refresh, that's a big problem.
I really think that the Challenger is the modern "personal luxury coupe" like the T-Birds and Cutlass/Regal used to be. It's big, rides nicely, fits 4 adults, plenty of power and great styling. I wish Ford would bring back the T-Bird SC. That was a great car.
Good point you make. I see the Challenger more like the T-Birds, StarFires, Riveras of the '60s. Those were cool cars, with plenty of punch, they had upscale prices, and were desirable. Same for today's Challenger. I kind of like it and think anyone who buys one will be happy. That said, I prefer the feel and response of Mustangs. Nothing wrong with everybody being happy.
 

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This is all a matter of perspective. The Challenger commercials are entirely too juvenile for my taste.
Could be their target market so that they can get multiple repeat customers that buy 3 or 4 cars instead of an older customer who may only buy one vehicle.

Still some advertisement > almost no advertisement is the point some of the people here are making.
 

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This is all a matter of perspective. The Challenger commercials are entirely too juvenile for my taste.
This may be true but you remember them and you're seeing them almost every day. When you see something every day your remember it, its not like that left over lasagna shoved to the back of the refrigerator forgotten only to find it two weeks later.
 

xDUMPWEEDx

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Of course this is self-serving, but I think if Ford would bring back simplicity and inexpensive prices on the Mustang it would help them.
It would be nice. All the required safety features now, and new electronics tech that people want, is expensive. Prices have risen faster than inflation.

Example: 1996, original MSRP when adjusted for inflation to 2018:
Mustang V6: $24,369
Mustang GT: $28,270
Mustang Cobra: $39,828

It's interesting that 22 years later, and the adjusted price has stayed pretty similar (except for the 2018 GT). I bought my brand new '17 GT PP for $31k, which is pretty close to the inflation adjusted price of the '96 GT. The Cobra is harder to compare because the GT350 isn't just a hopped up GT like the '96 Cobra was.
 

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speedfrk

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Could be their target market so that they can get multiple repeat customers that buy 3 or 4 cars instead of an older customer who may only buy one vehicle.

Still some advertisement > almost no advertisement is the point some of the people here are making.
Don't think so, most of the guys on the Challenger forum are older- like, way older. They love the 70's style of the Challenger and don't really care about track days or road courses at all. Same thing is happening in motorcycles- sport bikes are more amazing than ever and sales keep declining. Vintage cafe style bikes are very popular.
 

MustangJoe84

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The Mopar owners seem to be very loyal and active. Log into ChallengerTalk forums and there are usually over 400 viewing at one time. (About 3 times more than our site). Granted their car has been in production longer than the S550. Try going to the Mopar Nationals at Carlisle and you will see what I mean. It is a great time. I go every year and I only own Mustangs. Many Challenger customers are the older demographic, however, there are younger folks that like them also.
 

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Maybe Ford Performance is onto something keeping the GT350 look and just taking the taillights from the new GT for the GT500...
 

ApollosWar89

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Found this to be an interesting visual. Despite numbers being soft, the challenger has continuously taken more market share each year. FYI this is not my chart it is from aldo90731 of the challenger forums.
28336596_10155663562317600_4061218134362135582_o.jpg
 

6String

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Found this to be an interesting visual. Despite numbers being soft, the challenger has continuously taken more market share each year. FYI this is not my chart it is from aldo90731 of the challenger forums.
This particular chart displays the Challenger's gradual increase very well, since the segment representation is on the base line. But overall is hard to read for Mustang and Camaro.

Yes, the Challenger has improved it's market share, but in very small increments. Small increases look more impressive in a shrinking market, when the market share increase is not so much a factor of increased sales. When your competitors drop 30% and 21% and your sales increase by 1% your overall market share increases, because of the ratio to the total market segment. For example if the total market is 100k and your product is 30% (30K) and the next year the market shrinks to 80K and you sell 30k units your market share is now 37.5% even though you haven't increase sales by even a single unit.

I also suspect it is missing some numbers. For example, the 2015 Mustang portion of the bar, looks to be over 100k units. But you can't be sure because it is not a base line bar. It looks like 2016 Mustangs sales bar is smaller--and that would be true based on US sales, only. But, globally, I believe there were about 45k units in addition to the US sales in 2016. So the chart probably only accounts for US. And it is unknown if it reflects all North American sales (Canada).
 

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ApollosWar89

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This particular chart displays the Challenger's gradual increase very well, since the segment representation is on the base line. But overall is hard to read for Mustang and Camaro.

Yes, the Challenger has improved it's market share, but in very small increments. Small increases look more impressive in a shrinking market, when the market share increase is not so much a factor of increased sales. When your competitors drop 30% and 21% and your sales increase by 1% your overall market share increases, because of the ratio to the total market segment. For example if the total market is 100k and your product is 30% (30K) and the next year the market shrinks to 80K and you sell 30k units your market share is now 37.5% even though you haven't increase sales by even a single unit.

I also suspect it is missing some numbers. For example, the 2015 Mustang portion of the bar, looks to be over 100k units. But you can't be sure because it is not a base line bar. It looks like 2016 Mustangs sales bar is smaller--and that would be true based on US sales, only. But, globally, I believe there were about 45k units in addition to the US sales in 2016. So the chart probably only accounts for US. And it is unknown if it reflects all North American sales (Canada).
I agree to an extent. The Challengers ability to grow market share within a shrinking total sales environment speaks louder than most of the points made here. Yes, in a growing total sales environment I'm sure the other two would reclaim market share quickly but the fact of the matter is that isn't the case and certainly hasn't been for quite some time. The trend now for a while and given the direction of major R&D and tech development would only lead us to believe that total sales of these three vehicles will continue to tighten and shrink. The visuals are a bit difficult to see for the other two cars given this chart was made to display the challenger numbers. When the market sales shrink and yours holds steady it shows a healthy product line versus its competitors.

I'm unsure as to the geolocation of these figures but in reality, all non-North American sales are merely a blip on the chart. A slow growth in sales outside of North America wouldn't save these vehicle lines from eventually becoming specialty projects.
 

6String

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The Challengers ability to grow market share within a shrinking total sales environment speaks louder than most of the points made here.
I am not sure what you're trying to say. Challenger sales haven't increased in over two years. Well, to be precise, 2017 beat the 2016 production by 59 units. Neither year saw Dodge break 65k with the car. I like the car. And I think FCA has worked an amazing sales feat, with a platform that has seen better days. But the Challenger's best year was 2015, when FCA managed to sell over 66K units. The best month, May of 2015--the only month the Challenger moved over 7K units. The car has not seen a sales gain since 2015.

Gaining market share without increasing sales is not a great achievement. In 2006 the Mustang represented--93% market share (Pontiac still had hopes for Holden Monaro). In 2007, Mustang gained 100% of the market share for the 'Pony Car' segment (The Monaro/GTO bowed out, the Challenger and Camaro were not yet on the paying field). However the Mustang dropped 32K in sales. Some how, I don't think the bean counters at Ford were bragging to upper management about a 100% market share.
 

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I am not sure what you're trying to say. Challenger sales haven't increased in over two years. Well, to be precise, 2017 beat the 2016 production by 59 units. Neither year saw Dodge break 65k with the car. I like the car. And I think FCA has worked an amazing sales feat, with a platform that has seen better days. But the Challenger's best year was 2015, when FCA managed to sell over 66K units. The best month, May of 2015--the only month the Challenger moved over 7K units. The car has not seen a sales gain since 2015.

Gaining market share without increasing sales is not a great achievement. In 2006 the Mustang represented--93% market share (Pontiac still had hopes for Holden Monaro). In 2007, Mustang gained 100% of the market share for the 'Pony Car' segment (The Monaro/GTO bowed out, the Challenger and Camaro were not yet on the paying field). However the Mustang dropped 32K in sales. Some how, I don't think the bean counters at Ford were bragging to upper management about a 100% market share.
The point has been made several times- even with a much newer platform and a brand new refresh, Mustang sales are down 30% and losing market share to the Challenger which is on a 10 yr old platform. Since Challenger sales are not really up, it shows that the total segment is losing buyers but the buyers that are staying are buying more Challengers. That's pretty simple. The hard part is determining why. Could be price, styling, demographics... probably all of them. The Challenger is the most usable of the 3- a real back seat that can hold adults and a huge trunk. Considering the trend towards SUV's, it is definitely the most SUVish.
 

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The point has been made several times- even with a much newer platform and a brand new refresh, Mustang sales are down 30% and losing market share to the Challenger which is on a 10 yr old platform. Since Challenger sales are not really up, it shows that the total segment is losing buyers but the buyers that are staying are buying more Challengers. That's pretty simple. The hard part is determining why. Could be price, styling, demographics... probably all of them. The Challenger is the most usable of the 3- a real back seat that can hold adults and a huge trunk. Considering the trend towards SUV's, it is definitely the most SUVish.
Yes, definitely the most SUVish. That makes it a different segment. It ain't a pony car. Could be a high powered taxicab. This is the Mustang site. There is no auto badge in production more true to it's identity than Mustang. Steve McQueen's front engine rear drive 2 door coupe fastback was bullt on a 107" WB. Everybody on this site driving a Mustang is driving the same wheel base and FR/body configuration-50 years later. That's the way uhuh uhuh we like it. Don't care if Challenger adds a third row of seats, a 1000 HP, and sells 15,000 a month. It ain't a Mustang, never was and will never be.

The picture below needs no title. Anyone who has ever broken a speed limit knows what it is. I don't see any trace of a Challenger in the pic, thank God.
pitstop_fall 2017.JPG
 
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6String

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The point has been made several times- even with a much newer platform and a brand new refresh, Mustang sales are down 30% and losing market share to the Challenger which is on a 10 yr old platform. Since Challenger sales are not really up, it shows that the total segment is losing buyers but the buyers that are staying are buying more Challengers. That's pretty simple. The hard part is determining why. Could be price, styling, demographics... probably all of them. The Challenger is the most usable of the 3- a real back seat that can hold adults and a huge trunk. Considering the trend towards SUV's, it is definitely the most SUVish.
I agree that the Challenger is the most practical of the three. If you want a sports coupe that could double as a family car--the Challenger is it. And I agree that price, styling, and demographics all factor in. And you might throw in the rising interest rates, that make borrowing money cause buyers to consider purchases more critically.

Mustang sales are down 30%--but its still outsells Challenger (YTD). It isn't market share that drives a product. The 2002 Camaro had just as large a market share (Mustang/Camaro/Firebird) than the Challenger holds currently--but there wasn't a 2003 Camaro. As long as FCA is making a profit on building a Challenger, the product lives on. But it is margin, not market share that assures continuity. Fusion sells more units than Mustang and the Challenger combined--yet it is facing the ax. (It's no secret that the profit leader for Ford is the F-150.) Market share will not save the Fusion. It's survival is dependent on whether or not Ford can make a margin (profit) over the product cost. (It may live on in China.)

Where's Plymouth? (I loved the Plymouth Prowler) Where's Pontiac? (I liked the GTO) Where's Mercury? If it makes a healthy profit it survives, if it doesn't it's history--regardless of market share. Camaro has been cancelled. Corvette skipped a year of production. And Challenger has been cancelled not once, but twice. The car business is almost as ruthless as Frankie the Irishman. (Apologies for the hyperbole.)
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