End of the GT350 Production. What is Ford's plan?

[Schwerin]

I still think the Mach 1 would slot below the performance of the GT350, one reason... rear brakes. The spy shots of the 2021 Mach 1 still has floating rear brakes, not fixed caliper Brembos. That immediately tells me that Ford is not building a GT350 replacement. They’re building an entirely new car to answer a different need.

I look for it to be a more pumped up PP2. Inside Ford the PP2 was viewed similar to the Boss Laguna Seca, but it was unnamed. Which was good and bad, good because without a name, ADM wasn’t so much of a problem. If it was called a Boss... watch out as the price would jump on the showroom floor.

This will be named, so ADM and I look for it to be wilder than the PP2, but not the track performance of the Shelby as it’s clearly, not a replacement. It’s reviving the legacy of the Mach 1. Oh and of course it will have some form of a shaker hood.

I doubt the PP2 will become the new PP1. Doubt it with money on the table. The PP2 uses the GT350R front tires on all four corners. Not every needs super soft, super slick 305/30/19 tires. That’s an enthusiast only car, not fit for the masses. It would be too hardcore for the average person who just buys a mustang.

Also, this was all planned. Ford was always going to end the GT350, just like they’ve ended every 500 for the past generations, along with Mach 1, Bullitt, and the Ford GT. They’re like the McRibb, only for a limited time only. That keeps them special. They’re halo cars that bring up the brand showcasing what Ford can do and making people think that if they can make this awesome car, then that same technology or know-how will be in the ecoboost or Mach-e (Ford doesn’t make other cars as we know, so there you go... until they come out with hatchback Mustang).

The GT350 was supposed to end in 2018, then 2019 but it got extended because the 500 needed more development time. Ford wanted to relive the 60s having both the 350 and the 500 at dealerships. Job done, the 350 ays goodbye. Now it’s time for Ford to bring back the Mach. We’re reliving the 60s or for guys like me who weren’t around for that, living a new version of the muscle car hay day.

The new Mach 1 will be another chapter in that story.

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1126889_2021-ford-mustang-mach-1-spy-shots


I also wonder if the Mach 1 will be a Ford Performance product or like the PP2, a creation of the regular mustang team as their own wild iteration of the mustang. FP and the regular mustang team are different working groups within Ford.

The PP2 internal name was Tremor, and possibly at one point Silver. If you do a search for PP2 parts on the Ford Part sites you will find some of them referring "tremor" package and others mention a "silver" package.

Regarding the PP2 not becoming the new PP1, they can easily solve that by just not changing the wheels/tires. Keep the 9/9.5in on the PS4's and keep Cup 2's for the "new" PP2 or just make them a separate option.

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[Wildcardfox]

The PPL2 internal name was Tremor, and possibly at one point Silver. If you do a search for PPL2 parts on the Ford Part sites you will find some of them referring "tremor" package and others mention a "silver" package.

You misunderstand what I’m saying.. all cars have a code name in Ford. The 2006 Ford GT was Petunia, the V10 Cobra was Daisy, Daytona—GR-1, 2003 Cobra—Terminator, etc. etc.

What I am saying is that they have said that if it was going to get a name, a historic mustang name, it most likely would’ve been the Boss. They said to view the car like you viewed the second generation Boss Laguna Seca. They would not have come out with a car named the Mustang Tremor. Ford would use a legacy name if it was a named car.

 

[Wildcardfox]

The PP2 internal name was Tremor, and possibly at one point Silver. If you do a search for PP2 parts on the Ford Part sites you will find some of them referring "tremor" package and others mention a "silver" package.

Regarding the PP2 not becoming the new PP1, they can easily solve that by just not changing the wheels/tires. Keep the 9/9.5in on the PS4's and keep Cup 2's for the "new" PP2 or just make them a separate option.

It’s not just the wheels. The PP2 is lower, drives harder. Just like Ford said, it’s meant to be an enthusiasts mustang. I would look to see the PP2 disappear. And some of its modifications dropping down to the PP1, sway bars, but not everything. PP1 is still mainly bought by people who are not on the forum, not driving their car spirited, etc.. 99% of the average people would buy a PP1, so it has to fit everyone—I don’t see them making the PP2 for everyone since it was built to fit a certain type of buyer.

 

[Venomous Pony]

Unless Ford secretly fixes the reasons people have the voodoo blow no matter how driven, since they haven't so far and won't let Ford dealerships go internally to find and see if can be fixed voodoo is a thing of the past when GT350 production ends.

I’m sure the Voodoo is not the only engine in automotive history to have warranty replacements. It happens, end of story. Doesn’t matter what brand.

 

[Schwerin]

It’s not just the wheels. The PP2 is lower, drives harder. Just like Ford said, it’s meant to be an enthusiasts mustang. I would look to see the PP2 disappear. And some of its modifications dropping down to the PP1, sway bars, but not everything. PP1 is still mainly bought by people who are not on the forum, not driving their car sprites, etc.. 99% of the average people would buy a PP1, so it has to fit everyone—I don’t see them making the PP2 for everyone since it was built to fit a certain type of buyer.

Yes but with the PP1 being the same price as the PP2 there is no logical reason to get the PP1 anymore. It makes more sense for perhaps bits of PP1 to just be stock, and PP2 to fill its place. I went from dailying PP1 to what considered an Upgrade to PP2 with the Ford Performance handling package, and in Normal mode, I notice almost 0 change in harshness. I chalk that up to not having the harder/wider tires of the PP2. So I can easily see them making parts of current PP1 stock and most of the PP2 a "new" PP1, maybe more accurate to say a PP 1.5. With PP1 and 2 currently being priced the same there is 0 reason to have the current PP1 and 2 as they are. PP1 is going to vanish or parts of it will become part of the base car. This leaves 2 rebranded as PP1, it will likely be tweaked a bit to be more "drivable" not not the same EXACT package, but either way this means there will be an opening improved "new" PP2, possibly with coolers, which may just be the Mach1.


In sort I'm saying I expect the base handling to improve, and the current PP2 to be slightly down graded (PP1.5) and a new package above it.

 

[PP0001]

You misunderstand what I’m saying.. all cars have a code name in Ford. The 2006 Ford GT was Petunia, the V10 Cobra was Daisy, Daytona—GR-1, 2003 Cobra—Terminator, etc. etc.

What I am saying is that they have said that if it was going to get a name, a historic mustang name, it most likely would’ve been the Boss. They said to view the car like you viewed the second generation Boss Laguna Seca. They would not have come out with a car named the Mustang Tremor. Ford would use a legacy name if it was a named car.

The 2012 Boss 302/LS cars also had an internal code name which was "747" with Steve Ling coming up with that code name back in late 2009 or early 2010.

I spoke with Steve at length on one occasion in Las Vegas and asked him how and why he came up with that code name?

His response was that is was based on a tribute to the then President and CEO of Ford namely Alan Mullaly who had come over from Boeing to run Ford and I believe that was back in 2006.

Of course with the original Boss 302's being launched back in 1969 which was the same year that the Boeing 747 commercial airliner was launched that also was a determining factor for this code name.

Steve Ling and Dave Pericak and many others did an outstanding job on "Project 747" and sorry to see Steve retire from Ford but now is working for Jack Roush last time that I spoke with him and obviously doing very well there.

 

[Wildcardfox]

Yes but with the PP1 being the same price as the PP2 there is no logical reason to get the PP1 anymore. It makes more sense for perhaps bits of PP1 to just be stock, and PP2 to fill its place. I went from dailying PP1 to what considered an Upgrade to PP2 with the Ford Performance handling package, and in Normal mode, I notice almost 0 change in harshness. I chalk that up to not having the harder/wider tires of the PP2. So I can easily see them making parts of current PP1 stock and most of the PP2 a "new" PP1, maybe more accurate to say a PP 1.5. With PP1 and 2 currently being priced the same there is 0 reason to have the current PP1 and 2 as they are. PP1 is going to vanish or parts of it will become part of the base car. This leaves 2 rebranded as PP1, it will likely be tweaked a bit to be more "drivable" not not the same EXACT package, but either way this means there will be an opening improved "new" PP2, possibly with coolers, which may just be the Mach1.


In sort I'm saying I expect the base handling to improve, and the current PP2 to be slightly down graded (PP1.5) and a new package above it.

I own both a PP2 and a GT350R. I bought the first 2019 PP2 for sale in the country.

Last time I checked, you had to special order the PP2 so it was not a product that was just being built and shipped to dealers. Depending on the options on the vehicle it can be more or less expensive than a fully decked out GT—it’s always been that way.

I do agree that some of those parts are going to trickle down. But certifying a car they’re not gonna do two tires or two different tire applications for the same car especially being that this is not the top of the model car, and we’ve seen when they have done that they make two iterations because the MagneRide tuning changes so much.

That would be just a needless work in designing, engineering, and in government certification.

The current PP1 and PP2 have a wide gap in performance around a road course. I think it was 10 seconds a lap faster in tests. It’s a niche car for a certain buyer whereas, like I mentioned before, the PP1 is for the masses. Everyone can be in it and have a great time or a great drive.

The MagneRide tuning is where the differences lie. Speaking to Ford, it’s around 30,000 different parameters that are changing based on your driver mode and feedback from multiple sensors. Change the tires, wheel width, it changes so many factors. So yes you can add the sway bars and other kits, but without it that MagneRide tuning, the PP2 will still have the advantage. We’re living in the digital world where so much is done with the computers adjusting and tweaking things, which is why these special cars get developed over a long time, there’s a lot of tweaking on those systems to get it to optimize and eek out every bit of performance.

 

[Wildcardfox]

The 2012 Boss 302/LS cars also had an internal code name which was "747" with Steve Ling coming up with that code name back in late 2009 or early 2010.

I spoke with Steve at length on one occasion in Las Vegas and asked him how and why he came up with that code name?

His response was that is was based on a tribute to the then President and CEO of Ford namely Alan Mullaly who had come over from Boeing to run Ford and I believe that was back in 2006.

Of course with the original Boss 302's being launched back in 1969 which was the same year that the Boeing 747 commercial airliner was launched that also was a determining factor for this code name.

Steve Ling and Dave Pericak and many others did an outstanding job on "Project 747" and sorry to see Steve retire from Ford but now is working for Jack Roush last time that I spoke with him and obviously doing very well there.

Now that’s a great story. I love how Ford just has fun with things. Speaking to Camillo Pardo, the designer of the 2005-2006 Ford GT, it’s a safe bet that if you hear of a boring code name, get excited for something awesome to come down the pipeline. Ford loves to use that misdirection.

 

[Schwerin]

I own both a PP2 and a GT350R. I bought the first 2019 PP2 for sale in the country.

Last time I checked, you had to special order the PP2 so it was not a product that was just being built and shipped to dealers. Depending on the options on the vehicle it can be more or less expensive than a fully decked out GT—it’s always been that way.

I do agree that some of those parts are going to trickle down. But certifying a car they’re not gonna do two tires or two different tire applications for the same car especially being that this is not the top of the model car, and we’ve seen when they have done that they make two iterations because the MagneRide tuning changes so much.

That would be just a needless work in designing, engineering, and in government certification.

The current PP1 and PP2 have a wide gap in performance around a road course. I think it was 10 seconds a lap faster in tests. It’s a niche car for a certain buyer whereas, like I mentioned before, the PP1 is for the masses. Everyone can be in it and have a great time or a great drive.

The MagneRide tuning is where the differences lie. Speaking to Ford, it’s around 30,000 different parameters that are changing based on your driver mode and feedback from multiple sensors. Change the tires, wheel width, it changes so many factors. So yes you can add the sway bars and other kits, but without it that MagneRide tuning, the PP2 will still have the advantage. We’re living in the digital world where so much is done with the computers adjusting and tweaking things, which is why these special cars get developed over a long time, there’s a lot of tweaking on those systems to get it to optimize and eek out every bit of performance.

PP2's have been showing up on dealers lots since they came out. The dealers may have ordered them but not all were marked at special orders on their Windows Stickers. THe price for a PP1 and PP2 are almost identical on the Ford site so if you are custom ordering a GT it make no sense to not get PP2 unless you need an auto.

Ford has sold a tire package separately on the Focus RS.

I'm well aware of how the magnaride works, but I doubt Ford is really going into that much depth. For example the Ford Performance tune is the same if you are putting the setup on a Bullitt, base GT, PP1 or Ecoboost. I'd expect the Shelby's to have much more fine tuning, but I wouldn't be amazed if the PP2 and Ford Performance tune are almost identical. After years of looking at base ECU tunes in SCT I would not be amazed if really all the tunes were not just based on the GT350 or 350R tune with mild tweaks. Ford has a habit of making and refining the top end version and then just neutering it a bit for lower trims. Just like I'd be amazed if all the 2.3T Hi-Po, Hi-Po handling package, 2.3T PP, PP2, Bullitt and GT PP cars really have different ABS tuning in any meaningful way like their paperwork claims.

 

[Voodoo Velocity]

I do not expect Ford to cross pollinate too much of the GT350 unique features with non Shelby models if they ever want (or plan to have) another Shelby named model under licence with Shelby American. In order to use the Shelby name, there has to be some exclusivity to that brand. That may include the Voodoo and Predator configurations. But I think Ford has plenty of opportunities to offer alternative performance configurations under the GT, Mach 1 and Boss brands. The Bullitt will likely return, but the co-branding value (Ford and Warner Bros) is lesser than the Ford and Shelby co-branding. Ford gets marketing value form the Bullitt name, but Warner bros just gets cash. Shelby 's agreement with Ford's ability to mass produce Shelby Mustangs helps to keep the Shelby brand relevant in the mass market. It allows Shelby to focus on producing low volume hand crafted Shelby American vehicles (which they now sell more Shelby trucks than Mustangs). It would not surprise me that before a GT350 returns, you will see Ford mass producing a model of Shelby truck.

In my crystal ball, the Mach1 will fill the slot vacated by the Bullitt with some unique features and improvements. But not as a GT350 replacement.

 

[nmp1]

I do not expect Ford to cross pollinate too much of the GT350 unique features with non Shelby models if they ever want (or plan to have) another Shelby named model under licence with Shelby American. In order to use the Shelby name, there has to be some exclusivity to that brand. That may include the Voodoo and Predator configurations. But I think Ford has plenty of opportunities to offer alternative performance configurations under the GT, Mach 1 and Boss brands. The Bullitt will likely return, but the co-branding value (Ford and Warner Bros) is lesser than the Ford and Shelby co-branding. Ford gets marketing value form the Bullitt name, but Warner bros just gets cash. Shelby 's agreement with Ford's ability to mass produce Shelby Mustangs helps to keep the Shelby brand relevant in the mass market. It allows Shelby to focus on producing low volume hand crafted Shelby American vehicles (which they now sell more Shelby trucks than Mustangs). It would not surprise me that before a GT350 returns, you will see Ford mass producing a model of Shelby truck.

In my crystal ball, the Mach1 will fill the slot vacated by the Bullitt with some unique features and improvements. But not as a GT350 replacement.

2nd that

 

[Wildcardfox]

PP2's have been showing up on dealers lots since they came out. The dealers may have ordered them but not all were marked at special orders on their Windows Stickers. THe price for a PP1 and PP2 are almost identical on the Ford site so if you are custom ordering a GT it make no sense to not get PP2 unless you need an auto.

Ford has sold a tire package separately on the Focus RS.

I'm well aware of how the magnaride works, but I doubt Ford is really going into that much depth. For example the Ford Performance tune is the same if you are putting the setup on a Bullitt, base GT, PP1 or Ecoboost. I'd expect the Shelby's to have much more fine tuning, but I wouldn't be amazed if the PP2 and Ford Performance tune are almost identical. After years of looking at base ECU tunes in SCT I would not be amazed if really all the tunes were not just based on the GT350 or 350R tune with mild tweaks. Ford has a habit of making and refining the top end version and then just neutering it a bit for lower trims. Just like I'd be amazed if all the 2.3T Hi-Po, Hi-Po handling package, 2.3T PP, PP2, Bullitt and GT PP cars really have different ABS tuning in any meaningful way like their paperwork claims.

I should have been more specific in the special order, they gave to be ordered from either a person or from a dealer, they are not making them just at will.

Ford does go deep into the tuning and that is from my interviews with them, going deep into the tuning in MagneRide modules and that’s not something that you’re not going to see or have access with in the SCT tuning module.

Most people don’t know how MagneRide works in depth. I’m an automotive journalist and when I interviewed them on the subject it is surprising how many facets change every second. It’s very complex.

They may have sold a different tire package on the RS, but that was a top model Focus, and it was tuned with both of those iterations in mind. This Mach 1 is not the top model Mustang so it would not get something like that.

I have to disagree with you, you’re Bullitt or my PP2 is not getting a second hand tuning from the GT350/GT350R. They’re built by different teams, Ford Performance where as the Mustangs, PP2, and Buillitt are built by the Mustang Team. The former was tested and developed over 3 years on the track, there’s no spillover in the tuning, and I can say that with certainty due to the many interviews I’ve had with Ford.

Give Ford some credit, they put a lot of time and development into these cars, they are not just a combination of more or less parts that separates them.

Looked back at my notes and I have to correct myself.

It was 3000 parameters, not 30,000.

“Each of the modes have 3000 calibratable parameters. Including high level vehicle parameters and physical parameters of the car. Some portion of the 3000 parameters are always changing.”

 

[Schwerin]

And I've been around enough to know that literally changing 2 parameters means they can say "its been returned" or "its got a custom tune" It's called marketing. I have 0 faith in anything said in an interview is 100% true. An interview is PR, so there is every reason to skew it to make yourself look good.

I also think that its very naïve to not think that the work done by FP is not shared with the Mustang team. The fact that the 2001 Cobra and 2003 Mach1 have VERY similar tuning despite being done by 2 separate teams shows that. Also that the Focus RS team worked with the Mustang team on tuning the 2.3T Hi-Po. It also saves Ford lots of money and time for them to share stuff and not do everything from scratch. Because making the Mustang team do it from scratch would have been a waste of time and money. Just like them doing Magneride would be when they can already rely on the work the Shelby team did as a baseline.

It's also not the first time its happened in 1999 the Ford Racing PCM for the Escort ZX2 S/R was literally the basis for every other ZX2 PCM. You could literally over lap them all in SCT and see where all they just either took away a tiny bit of timing, or a tiny bit of fuel to make it run easier on 87oct vs 91. They they insisted it was a "fully recalibrated tune". There was 5 changed tables in the WHOLE ECU and 1 was just the max top speed. Like I said. Marketing.

Yet you are saying that the Focus RS was somehow perfectly tuned for its Summer tires AND a dedicated winter tire, with its comparatively static suspension vs the Magnaride, but somehow magnaride in the PP2 with its 3000 parameters isn't able to do that and somehow is ONLY tuned for a specific tire? I'm not seeing the logic there. The point of Magnaride is that it can adapt, the Focus RS can't. If anything the Mustang is much better suited to be able to have separate tire packages than the RS.

Also.. there are TONS of tables changing every second in the ECU.. it's been like that for decades. Welcome to how computers work. How many calculations do you think your freaking phone is doing every time you pick it up with its gyro meter, motions sensors, knowing if it should wake up, if youre looking at it, listening for Keywords, checking if its fully charged or not. 3000 parameters is NOT a lot. Assume that every second it has to do 1000 calculations for EACH of those fields and NOT just "1000 calculations per dampener" as they advertise. So about 3 million total calculations instead of the 4000 they claim. That is still not a lot of work for modern cellphone chips. Hell in 1999 the R34 GT-R's AWD system was doing 1000 calculations per second 16-17 years before Magnaride. Computers in cars are MASSIVELY slow compared to even a cellphone like I said. That is why Tesla started to use Nvidia based chips before eventually building their own.

Whats sad is that its taken till recently for automakers to really take advantage of compute power. Its why I laugh when people toss around things like "Reading sensors 1000 times a second" or "updates X numbers of tables" because when you actually know computers you know those numbers are SO low its pathetic they have JUST gotten to that point. Hell a good $60 gaming mouse updates itself 1000 times a second. The fact that my 50+K car is doing that per corner is kinda sad.

The only thing impressive about those 3000 is, and no one seems to EVER interview these guys, is the guys that came up with the math for each of those parameters. NO one talks to the electronic engineers. Just the guys that leverage them. I can almost guarantee those guys, don't even work at Ford.

 

[shogun32]

I would love to see the PP2 be the GT350-lite. Get all the suspension tuning, all the coolers and the Tremec since the Voodoo has been kicked to the curb.
And gets wider front fenders so the 10.5 wheels look less silly. The GT350 brake setup would also be part of the call it $8500 package.

If Ford had any smarts the Mach1 would be the same motor as the GT500 minus the blower and mated to the A10. As a purist I despise auto trans but I don't see Ford bothering with the M6 on the Mach because the unit numbers will be far too low.

 

[svassh]

Plan, what plan?

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