DeatschWerks EcoBoost 1700cc Injectors

[Juben]

In my experience dealing with Geoff and Full-Race in the past few years, they don't do anything half assed. That being said, he's thinking that the new pump should feed me out past 500 rwhp on my 3.5L. So, these injectors may finally prove useful. We'll see.

I didn't imply that they do half-assed work. A lot of companies have worked on a HPFP upgrade over the years and they've all fallen off by the wayside with their developments. I meant that I hope that they follow through with the product and don't give up/lose hope with it like the others have. If anyone could do it, FR can and I hope they give us a great product like I know they're capable of doing.

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[pinero61]

I didn't imply that they do half-assed work. A lot of companies have worked on a HPFP upgrade over the years and they've all fallen off by the wayside with their developments. I meant that I hope that they follow through with the product and don't give up/lose hope with it like the others have. If anyone could do it, FR can and I hope they give us a great product like I know they're capable of doing.

Sorry for the confusion. I know what you meant, I'm just saying that they're a good company. Usually when he says there's something coming, it's already in final testing.

 

[higdominator]

I would suggest a google search on some of the white papers on DI, there are many out there. They all come to the same conclusion. When ethanol is injected via DI its effective octane rating is above 160, you pick up power, can run more boost, and more timing, while keeping the intake charge extremely cool, and raising the knock threshold. When injecting via PI your effective octane rating drops to around 100, the intake charge cooling is extremely diminished, and your knock threshold is much lower, meaning less boost, and timing before you experience knock. None of this is stuff I am saying, its all stuff proven via testing, and written into scientific papers. There is a reason all OEM's are going to DI, and its not because its cheap or easy. The more fuel you can inject via DI, the more efficient the motor will be, and more power it will make.

Here is one paper this one focusing more on comparing Ethanol to Methanol: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1877705815004889

Another one: http://www.journalase.com:8080/Jweb_qcaqyjn/EN/article/downloadArticleFile.do?attachType=PDF&id=8504

Not sure of the relevance of those papers to the discussion, but I've drawn my conclusions based upon other papers that discuss the use of both DI and PI with ethanol (what I'm using now...similar to Ford's findings on the subject http://papers.sae.org/2009-01-1490/)

I'd also like to see the octane numbers evaluated in a lab, on a real engine, and not a "computational model is used in this paper to determine the knock resistance" per http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236114005948

Computers are great, but aren't real life. (Before you take it out of context, I'm not saying DI isn't beneficial, I am saying I would like to have hard data, you know, because science).


While everyone is pissing on about a new HPFP I'm enjoying my clean and cool intake ports/valves and my incredible knock suppression from using my DI/PI combo with E85.

 

[VargasTurboTech]

Not sure of the relevance of those papers to the discussion, but I've drawn my conclusions based upon other papers that discuss the use of both DI and PI with ethanol (what I'm using now...similar to Ford's findings on the subject http://papers.sae.org/2009-01-1490/)

I'd also like to see the octane numbers evaluated in a lab, on a real engine, and not a "computational model is used in this paper to determine the knock resistance" per http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0016236114005948

Computers are great, but aren't real life. (Before you take it out of context, I'm not saying DI isn't beneficial, I am saying I would like to have hard data, you know, because science).


While everyone is pissing on about a new HPFP I'm enjoying my clean and cool intake ports/valves and my incredible knock suppression from using my DI/PI combo with E85.

I guess you didn't actually take the time to read the paper or research the subject. As most all the papers written are from actual testing of motors on dynos not models.

As far as enjoying incredible knock suppression, I again guess you decided not to read the studies. DI alone will provide vastly superior knock suppression, in all situations over DI / PI mix. If cleaning valves is your primary goal for PI, well I have nothing to add there. We currently run DI / PI on our shop vehicle it works great. The facts still remain, DI is much more efficient has a much higher knock threshold, and will make much more power then the DI / PI combo. But hey I know facts aren't always convenient.

 

[higdominator]

*air cooled NA motors.

Not saying that a TC water cooled motor would show anything to the contrary, I want to know if it would be greater, beyond computerized speculation.

All the studies I was able to not read stated they were using a DI injection of E85 mixed with a gasoline PI injection. Not a combined use of E85. I'd like to see the difference. That's all.

Basically, a DI motor using E85 would have superior knock suppression. Adding additional E85 PI reduces the effectiveness? That's essentially what you are saying.


The reason I believe there to be a potential difference is due to the physical properties of an evaporating droplet at high pressure in a combination of high or low temperatures. This would have an effect on the latent cooling properties of the fuel. Since the NA motor has nowhere near the cylinder pressures of a turbo charged motor, this is a valid subject.

 

[Tune+]

Hopefully, it won't be vaporware. If I can get an upgraded HPFP and hit 500 whp, I'll be more than happy with it.

It's not, don't ask me how I know but it does exist. ;)

 

[Scott Wilson]

If pressure and flow are inversely proportional, why cant we just increase the size of the hpfp at a lower freq and then add larger injectors? Just increase the piston size and chamber of the HPFP and allow it to travel the same distance on the cam.

 

[Juben]

If pressure and flow are inversely proportional, why cant we just increase the size of the hpfp at a lower freq and then add larger injectors? Just increase the piston size and chamber of the HPFP and allow it to travel the same distance on the cam.

I've wondered about this too. It's amazing to me that we could send a man to the moon on calculator watch technology, but yet, no one can find a suitable solution for an upgraded HPFP. I'd be happy with an upgraded pump even if only to run E50-E60.

 

[ForYourOwnGood]

I've wondered about this too. It's amazing to me that we could send a man to the moon on calculator watch technology, but yet, no one can find a suitable solution for an upgraded HPFP. I'd be happy with an upgraded pump even if only to run E50-E60.

Mazda/Audi have upgraded internals for their HPFP, just a new piston that takes 30 minutes to swap out. Why nobody has come out with one for the Ford is beyond me, is the design vastly different?

 

[Juben]

Mazda/Audi have upgraded internals for their HPFP, just a new piston that takes 30 minutes to swap out. Why nobody has come out with one for the Ford is beyond me, is the design vastly different?

Our HPFP is a sealed unit whereas those are somewhat modular, iirc. I wish we could swap internals out in 30 minutes!

 

[ForYourOwnGood]

Our HPFP is a sealed unit whereas those are somewhat modular, iirc. I wish we could swap internals out in 30 minutes!

Looking at the ford unit, it doesn't look any harder to remove the piston than any of the other ones I've seen, so maybe the flow limitations are somewhere else (demand control valve maybe?). Obviously there must be something stopping people from doing it because guys way smarter than me are working on it

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