Car and Driver Compares the 1LE to the PP2

[JohnnyUtah]

The Mustang did better in every handling test. By the numbers, the Mustang out handles the Camaro.

So the "track battle" vid posted by Cosmo should really be ignored because they upgraded the Camaro's tires. In the real world, stock versus stock, the Mustang GT PP2 is going to out handle the Camaro SS 1LE.

Ford continues to improve the Mustang, but has Chevy done anything to improve the 1LE? That's probably the issue. The 1LE was pretty good when it came out a few years ago, but now it's dated.

Yep, by the numbers. I thought it was interesting to see that, but still read that they felt like the Camaro handled better. There is a subjective portion of handling which is confidence and repeatability. I think that's kind of what they outlined in the article. I can see how there is a WTF moment though when the numbers are all ahead, though very very close.

There is no doubt that in the stock form the cars are neck and neck. Tires are always a big variable.

That's funny that you say the 1LE was pretty good a few years ago. Its dated? What? What exactly has Ford done to better it? Sport Cups with no additional cooling was a poor attempt with the PP2. We all know that. The cars are essentially equal numbers wise. Then the test above uses an owners car and adds sport cups and it crushed the mustang time on track.

I still dont see the Mustangs answer to the SS 1LE unless you're talking about the 350 which is in a different price league. We all know that the PP2 was that attempt, but it fell short. There is no way around that. It crapped out in so many tests due to insufficient cooling. Its unacceptable, just like the 350 with no additional cooling was unacceptable. I cant believe anyone would think otherwise, unless they are simply buying the car to drive a cars and coffee.

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[jcl78]

Both are fantastic platforms, and the honest truth is few buyers will use near the limit of capabilities of either. I have been watching reviews, reading reviews like this for months now.

I was in the market for either a Mustang GT, Camaro 2SS or 1SS w/ 1LE, or Challenger Scat Pack. It is awesome that as car enthusiasts we have so many choices (although in the future that doesn't seem like it will be the case).

For me personally, here were my thoughts:

I ruled out the 2018 - 2019 GT because I truly didn't care for the restyle, I fell in love with the 2015 - 2017 GT's since they came out and really loved the style. This is in spite of the fact that 2018 - 19 GT's outperform the 2015 - 17's with the Gen 3 Coyote in every way.
I ruled out the Challenger (didn't even test drive it actually) because, well, Dodge. Also, they are huge, didn't care for the interior or really the exterior styling. I just am not a MOPAR fan.
I ruled out the Camaro mainly because of the ergo and styling issues. I think it is a fantastic platform, handled wonderfully, the power hit hard, it would smoke my 16 GT in any contest. However, even being prepared for the ergos by reading hours of reviews, etc. the seating position was awful for me, the visibility was really poor, I just could not get comfortable in it, and to me (subjective of course) the styling was just not something I could get over.

My 16 GT PP1 is outclassed in many ways by many vehicles, however when I drive it, stab the gas, take a corner, look back at it, man it was for me. For me, I will never push the limits of it, so it just works. But we have choices as car people, and that is awesome. I am happy for Camaro owners who love their cars, they are awesome, just like I am happy for 18 - 19 GT owners, and hell, even Dodge owners, the poor bastards

To each their own!

 

[Arthonon]

My 16 GT PP1 is outclassed in many ways by many vehicles, however when I drive it, stab the gas, take a corner, look back at it, man it was for me. For me, I will never push the limits of it, so it just works. But we have choices as car people, and that is awesome.

This, I think, sums up the right attitude - the cars are all good performers, and have been for years, so while a 2015-2017 might not have quite the same performance as the '18-'19s, it's not like it's not fun to drive, or performs badly. You like it, and whatever small differences there are in performance aren't important enough to change. I'm sure that the next revision of the S550 will outperform my '18, but I'm not going to run out and buy it just because of that.

Same with the Camaro. All these cars are close enough that performance is not really the deciding factor for 99.99% of the buyers. If you want track-ready off the lot, the 1LE is the better deal, but otherwise, it probably doesn't really matter which you buy, performance-wise.

 

[Hack]

I agree the cars are very close in performance.

In comfort, driveability... just pure enjoyment of being in the car, the Mustang is way better. That's really the bottom line and it's why the Camaro doesn't sell very well compared to the Mustang. Even many die hard Camaro guys have decided to switch because it's just not worth it to them.

 

[Grintch]

Braking, skid pad and slalom all were won by the Mustang. By the numbers, better handling.

With barely streetable tires.

Now you know why the non track car (without the track ready cooling, etc. of the 1LE) has track tires.

 

[Grintch]

Well all I can say is. You Camaro boys better run out and buy yourselves one real soon. Cause apparently that supercar like performance doesn't sell cars.

Sure doesn't, just look at F-150 or SUV sales verses any car. Camry sells much better than the Mustang so it must be better, right?

What I love is the review said the Mustang was the better overall car, just not the better performance car.
And every one complains how biased it was. How anti Ford.

In my opionin they needed a track test, and the PP2 should have lost 10 points everytime the diff overheated.

 

[Hack]

With barely streetable tires.

Now you know why the non track car (without the track ready cooling, etc. of the 1LE) has track tires.

I actually agree with your sentiment here. I think the Cup 2 tires are more than I would want on the street. Same with the tires the 1LE is equipped with - since according to the Camaro guys they are roughly equivalent to the Cup 2s.

I was considering a 2020 GT350 to replace the 2016 model I previously owned and the Cup 2 tires are part of why I didn't buy one. Yes it will make the numbers, but I prefer not to have to replace tires 3 times a year. With the Super Sports I got ~16,000 miles on the rears and over 20,000 on the fronts. And that's with track days sprinkled in there. I think getting that kind of longevity out of consumables is worth it even though the absolute numbers aren't quite as good as they could be. GT350 brakes are awesome that way too. They last a really long time even with hard use.

 

[Arthonon]

Sure doesn't, just look at F-150 or SUV sales verses any car. Camry sells much better than the Mustang so it must be better, right?

But these are direct competitors, and are performance cars. It's like I've been saying, they both perform closely enough that the small performance difference doesn't matter to most people.

What I love is the review said the Mustang was the better overall car, just not the better performance car.
And every one complains how biased it was. How anti Ford.

In my opionin they needed a track test, and the PP2 should have lost 10 points everytime the diff overheated.

It's like I've said before, it's relatively easy and not crazy expensive to add the cooler, and then you'd lose all of your argument, other than cost. But if the cooler were added, it would be the best overall car and very possibly, the best performer as well. As for cost, again, it's like I've said before, look at how much it would cost to add a cooler to the Mustang, and then compare that with what it would cost to add a larger trunk opening, larger windows, etc., to the Camaro.

 

[Biggus Dickus]

With barely streetable tires.

Not sure what you mean by "barely streetable" - they seem to get me up and down I-15 without any problems. And on some "streets" like Angeles Crest or some other mountain and desert roads out here they are very, very "streetable".

 

[JohnnyUtah]

Not sure what you mean by "barely streetable" - they seem to get me up and down I-15 without any problems. And on some "streets" like Angeles Crest or some other mountain and desert roads out here they are very, very "streetable".

They're fine in CA on most days. Treadwear sucks but they're great when its dry.

 

[JohnnyUtah]

But these are direct competitors, and are performance cars. It's like I've been saying, they both perform closely enough that the small performance difference doesn't matter to most people.


It's like I've said before, it's relatively easy and not crazy expensive to add the cooler, and then you'd lose all of your argument, other than cost. But if the cooler were added, it would be the best overall car and very possibly, the best performer as well. As for cost, again, it's like I've said before, look at how much it would cost to add a cooler to the Mustang, and then compare that with what it would cost to add a larger trunk opening, larger windows, etc., to the Camaro.

If they would put the cooling on it from the factory then I might be in a PP2 next. I'm not buying a 50k track car only to immediately have to add upgraded cooling. That's ridiculous.

I echo the concerns with the trunk opening and some of the other camaro gripes, but showing up at the track in my brand new mustang only to go limp in 3 laps is an utter failure and I would hate the car because of it.

My priorities arent everyone's and I would feel the same if I bought an early auto Vette Z06 and it overheated. Its lame.

 

[Arthonon]

If they would put the cooling on it from the factory then I might be in a PP2 next. I'm not buying a 50k track car only to immediately have to add upgraded cooling. That's ridiculous.

I echo the concerns with the trunk opening and some of the other camaro gripes, but showing up at the track in my brand new mustang only to go limp in 3 laps is an utter failure and I would hate the car because of it.

My priorities arent everyone's and I would feel the same if I bought an early auto Vette Z06 and it overheated. Its lame.

I agree that it was dumb of Ford not to add it, and they did the same thing with the earlier GT350s, which was even worse, so I'm not sure why they didn't think about it. It does seem like they took that into account with the GT500.

My point was that if a Mustang is considered a better vehicle in every way other than overheating, maybe it's worth putting another $2K into it and have a better car in every way, instead of just performance, or just usability. If they put the coolers on at the factory and charged $2K more for it, people probably wouldn't be making a big deal about it.

Kinda like this :

 

[2018OFPP1?2]

How would this play out if Ford went the cheater route and made a 6.2 liter coyote? LT what???

Chevy should be embarrassed that they have a 1.2 liter advantage, a lighter car, and just barely manage to eke out a win.

 

[DekiDoo]

How would this play out if Ford went the cheater route and made a 6.2 liter coyote? LT what???

Chevy should be embarrassed that they have a 1.2 liter advantage, a lighter car, and just barely manage to eke out a win.

To be fair, the LT1 is a lighter engine, with a lot more torque, and a lower center of gravity. It's a stellar engine. Your argument also makes no sense, because what if Chevy made the LT1 a DOHC?

 

[JohnnyUtah]

How would this play out if Ford went the cheater route and made a 6.2 liter coyote? LT what???

Chevy should be embarrassed that they have a 1.2 liter advantage, a lighter car, and just barely manage to eke out a win.

Cheater engine? Ha ha. Ok

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