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Scootsmcgreggor
Well-Known Member
Now it’s zero front toe at 3.5* camber.
TeeLew
Well-Known Member
Just for conversational purposes, the range of somewhat normal toe values would be from maybe 3mm out per side to 3mm in per side. This value being measured on an 18" or 19" inch rim. The different wheel sizes will affect the actual toe angle involved, but if we just look at the number as a reference value, then it is what it is.
The response one gets from a toe setting change is dependent on the tire, but we can discuss generalities.
Starting at zero and moving towards toe-out, we generally increase the quickness of the turn-in of the car. The negative is that this quick turn-in will likely lead into reduced front grip in the mid-corner. This is just the trade-off that I commonly see.
Starting at zero and moving towards toe-in, we will generally slow the initial turn-in of the car, but on the positive side, we might find a little front grip mid-corner. Again, I'm not putting forth reasoning for this observation, I'm just reporting it.
Autocrosses, where response is king and stability is mostly an afterthought, the toe-out numbers tend towards the high side. For track duty, especially on higher speed tracks where there are plenty of longer duration corners, we might be slightly out to moderately in. It will all depend on the car, tire, driver, track, conditions, etc.
In either case, going too far out or in will lead to the nose of the car hunting at speed, wandering on the brakes and a general feeling of instability. To this end, I bet you just went a little too far toe-out on your track setting, which made for the bad outcome. If your low camber setting was maybe 1.5mm toe-in per side, then the high camber setting would be roughly 1.5mm toe-out per side. I'll bet you a quarter both of those settings would work for you and improve tire wear on the street. I might be wrong, but it would be a reasonable test.
The response one gets from a toe setting change is dependent on the tire, but we can discuss generalities.
Starting at zero and moving towards toe-out, we generally increase the quickness of the turn-in of the car. The negative is that this quick turn-in will likely lead into reduced front grip in the mid-corner. This is just the trade-off that I commonly see.
Starting at zero and moving towards toe-in, we will generally slow the initial turn-in of the car, but on the positive side, we might find a little front grip mid-corner. Again, I'm not putting forth reasoning for this observation, I'm just reporting it.
Autocrosses, where response is king and stability is mostly an afterthought, the toe-out numbers tend towards the high side. For track duty, especially on higher speed tracks where there are plenty of longer duration corners, we might be slightly out to moderately in. It will all depend on the car, tire, driver, track, conditions, etc.
In either case, going too far out or in will lead to the nose of the car hunting at speed, wandering on the brakes and a general feeling of instability. To this end, I bet you just went a little too far toe-out on your track setting, which made for the bad outcome. If your low camber setting was maybe 1.5mm toe-in per side, then the high camber setting would be roughly 1.5mm toe-out per side. I'll bet you a quarter both of those settings would work for you and improve tire wear on the street. I might be wrong, but it would be a reasonable test.
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
What I'm seeing from BMR's CB006 pictures ties the subframe rails together laterally without allowing relative lateral movement. The other two mounting points appear to be bushed, so there's still going to be some lateral movement even if they use polyurethane bushings.
There might be a smallish outside tire camber benefit in hard cornering, but I doubt it to be worth much more than a tenth of a degree or two out at 1g lateral. Keep in mind that as the outside tire is trying to push everything inward, the inside tire is trying to pull everything in the same direction as well, so your benefit becomes the difference between these effects rather than the outboard tire's improvement taken in isolation.
Norm
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Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
Metal to metal would not change my estimate of a tenth of a degree outside camber improvement by enough to matter. It's a diminishing returns kind of thing where the first amount of stiffness increase buys you more improvement than subsequent stiffness increases. After considering a poly bushing case, there isn't much room left for camber improvement here by going full-solid.
Norm
NightmareMoon
Well-Known Member
Anyway if the OP is at 2.5 front camber, tire shoulder wear (with stiff sidewalled tires) doesn’t stop until you’re well above 3 degrees, so a tenth pr two from chassis stiffening (even of that’s a thing) isn’t going to get close to solving his wear issue.
FWIW I’m finding 3.2 front camber pretty livable on the street. Inside edge tire wear doesn’t seem any worse than on 2.6 camber, and braking is still quite strong.
FWIW I’m finding 3.2 front camber pretty livable on the street. Inside edge tire wear doesn’t seem any worse than on 2.6 camber, and braking is still quite strong.
OP
OP
SVO MkII
Well-Known Member
- Thread starter
- #23
You shed some light on something I completely overlooked, lower control arm bushings. I should've thought of these when I installed the FP Track Pack last year. Yes, I definitely agree the poly bushings would help more than the K-brace. However, the K-brace is cheap enough, and so easy to install, I'll probably throw it on too. I do think it helped to reduce the "jiggle" in the front suspension on my convertible (understanding that the vert is more flexy than the coupe).
NightmareMoon
Well-Known Member
If you're lowered very much, you probably want the geometry correcting control arms from Steeda. Rumor is that they help the camber curve in a turn.
TeeLew
Well-Known Member
I think the upper limit for the track is probably, at minimum, an extra full degree beyond that. This is a heavy car with Macpherson Struts, so there is a lot of chassis roll and not much camber gain. The only thing you can do is add anti-roll bar to control the roll and static camber to help the contact patch. Eventually, braking performance will drop, but I bet that only starts to show up once you're >-4.5* or so.
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TeeLew
Well-Known Member
Generally, braces like these improve the chassis response characteristics. I agree that it won't make much of a difference on the camber of the tire, but it may improve the feel of the car in a way which makes it beneficial. I have the straight across brace (it doesn't tie into the front mounts like this one). I think it might tighten things up a bit, but it's difficult to really know without a proper back-to-back run on a course I'm familiar. That will never really happen, so I carry it around to make me feel good.
Norm Peterson
corner barstool sitter
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