Anyone changed there oil to 5w30 and encounter a problem, failure or any weird noises?

[TheLion70x77]

A3/B4 would provide similar bearing protection to SAE 50 or 60 weight (HTHS of 3.7). But the question remains, can they provide a lower viscosity at 100C than 50 or 60 weight? Those grades have substantially increased drag in the valve train during normal use as they are in the 16 to 21 cSt range at 100C.

The best solution is still a thermostat controlled Air to Oil cooler running 5W-20 or 5W-30. Every 20F increase in temp drops you one viscosity grade on average with the exception of 20 to 30, which is about a 30F step. 5W-20 running at 210F will provide the same film strength as 5W-50 at 280F.

it's all about temperature. Also to maximize wheel power, you need to heat up the 5W-50, as it thins out your power to the wheels will increase, so you'd need some warm up laps.

The other downside of using a higher viscosity at elevated temps other than needing to warm up to achieve maximum power is that the oil will break down much faster. A lower viscosity oil at more ideal temps will out last a higher viscosity oil at elevated temps.

But yah, if your running frequently at elevated temps, a 5W-30 will offer very slightly increased bearing protection. Not sure if it's necessary however. If your not making metal on metal contact under worst case conditions for 5W-20, 5W-30 will offer no benefit.

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[engineermike]

...(HTHS of 3.7). But the question remains, can they provide a lower viscosity at 100C than 50 or 60 weight? ...

Yes, Castrol, Pennzoil, and probably others make even 30 weights that meet the A3/B4 HTHS spec (>3.5). I'm using 5W40 A3/B4 in mine.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Takeaways:
5W-20 or 5W-30 for street, Auto x, drag or light track use. Also ideal for extended HPDE sessions WITH an Air to Oil cooler.

5W-50 for extended HPDE track sessions on the stock cooling system. Oil temps in the 270F and up to 300F range are common. So a 50 weight will thin out to 30 or even 20 weight on the stock cooling system which is heavily taxed for extended sessions, especially in hot climates.

It's all about temperature. Higher temps require higher viscosity. Lower temps require lower viscosity with all else being the same. You can either increase viscosity to compensate for elevated temps, or increase cooling to remain at a lower viscosity. It's up to each person to determine what's optimal for their application.

There is an ideal temperature, viscosity and clearance that will achieve the best balance of protection, drag (power) losses, cooling and bearing stress. 10 cSt at 100C with a 0.002" clearance. A little over or under 10cSt is fine, but too far and you start trading off one attribute for another.

This is also assuming your not increasing peak loads beyond what the stock rotating assembly was designed for (FI, higher than 7,400 EPM, Nitrous etc.).

 

[Grimreaper]

5w30 mobil 1 at 2300 miles. 4500 now. Zero issues.

Will be using Quaker state 5w30 synthetic next. Has healthy dose of moly.

Added Liquidmoly to this oil change and after 3 to 400 miles of use the light valvetrain noise dropped to near zero.

 

[accel]

after being in bbq tick boat will use 5w20 +ceratec for first several oil changes, then will switch to 5w30 and will just keep adding ceratec.

 

[TheLion70x77]

after being in bbq tick boat will use 5w20 +ceratec for first several oil changes, then will switch to 5w30 and will just keep adding ceratec.

Didn't you say you had issues with the BBQ tick getting louder with 5W-30? Why go to 30 if your concern is the noise? 20 and 30 are pretty darn close and a good synthetic 20 will be more than enough even for hard street use. I'd agree for HPDE at least a 30 weight if your not running an Air to Oil cooler though or if you live in a very hot climate like Texas, Austraila etc., 30 weight might make more sense.

Your average oil temps will run a bit higher. 30 weight buys you 30F of higher operating temperature over 20 weight.

 

[accel]

Didn't you say you had issues with the BBQ tick getting louder with 5W-30? Why go to 30 if your concern is the noise? 20 and 30 are pretty darn close and a good synthetic 20 will be more than enough even for hard street use. I'd agree for HPDE at least a 30 weight if your not running an Air to Oil cooler though or if you live in a very hot climate like Texas, Austraila etc., 30 weight might make more sense.

Your average oil temps will run a bit higher. 30 weight buys you 30F of higher operating temperature over 20 weight.

I did. But that short block is gone. New one got ceratec very soon after initial break-in. I feel that ceratec will provide preventative protection, and anyways, there's nothing else to rely on anymore in bbq tick department. Not even ford.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Seems like CeraTek, TriboTEX or Archoil are the only solutions that help with the BBQ somewhat consistently. But I think a few people didn't have complete relief even with those. Check out the "What oil do you use?" thread, I posted some interesting information on PUP 5W-30 vs. MC Semi-Syn 5W-20. Their 5W-30 actually flows substantially better than MC's 5W-20. So cold start wear and fuel economy would be better with the "thicker" PUP 5W-30 because of it's crazy high VI.

However PUP 5W-30 still provides a bit more high temp protection than any of the 5W-20's. I'm going to follow the 2018 user manual recommendations to run 5W-30 to test out because I often push the car very hard even on the street which is like short stints of "light track use".

PUP 5W-20 stacks up very well also against MC 5W-20 as well and I did have good results with it the one time I ran it. But given how PUP tends to increase fuel mileage over hydrocracked Group III's like M1 in the same viscosity grade (so PUP 5W-20 vs. M1 5W-20), I'm wondering if PUP 5W-30 will yield similar power and fuel economy in one grade higher to something like MC 5W-20's or M1 5W-20's. Basically i'm theorizing that the better lubrication of PUP will off-set the losses of going up one viscosity grade higher so you get the added protection without added losses over hydrogracked Group III's. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but I like to optimize things!

 

[accel]

Seems like CeraTek, TriboTEX or Archoil are the only solutions that help with the BBQ somewhat consistently. But I think a few people didn't have complete relief even with those. Check out the "What oil do you use?" thread, I posted some interesting information on PUP 5W-30 vs. MC Semi-Syn 5W-20. Their 5W-30 actually flows substantially better than MC's 5W-20. So cold start wear and fuel economy would be better with the "thicker" PUP 5W-30 because of it's crazy high VI.

However PUP 5W-30 still provides a bit more high temp protection than any of the 5W-20's. I'm going to follow the 2018 user manual recommendations to run 5W-30 to test out because I often push the car very hard even on the street which is like short stints of "light track use".

PUP 5W-20 stacks up very well also against MC 5W-20 as well and I did have good results with it the one time I ran it. But given how PUP tends to increase fuel mileage over hydrocracked Group III's like M1 in the same viscosity grade (so PUP 5W-20 vs. M1 5W-20), I'm wondering if PUP 5W-30 will yield similar power and fuel economy in one grade higher to something like MC 5W-20's or M1 5W-20's. Basically i'm theorizing that the better lubrication of PUP will off-set the losses of going up one viscosity grade higher so you get the added protection without added losses over hydrogracked Group III's. Maybe I'm over thinking this, but I like to optimize things!

this no sound youtube shows how oil with ceratec withstands high temperatures. the experiment itself might be a little odd, but result is impressive.

after watching it I thought that with ceratec I might just stay with 5w20.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Something very interesting I just found out from the Ford Performance Racing School. I was very curious to see what Ford Racing runs on their 2015 PP GT instructor cars. These cars feature full roll cages, Ford Performance Track Pack suspension, 4 point harness, racing seats, differential coolers and Air to Oil coolers. They are NOT running any power adders however as they are instructor cars and their intention isn't to be absolute fastest, but fast enough and reliable after being beat on daily. These are dedicated track cars mind you.

Jill passed along your question to me about which oil we utilize in our 2015 Mustang GTs. We run Castrol Edge Supercar 5W/50.

Josh Williams


Race Shop Assistant Manager

Ford Performance Racing School

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So in the 2015's with STOCK PCM calibration, 435 hp, 400 ft-lbs, are running Castrol Edge Super Car 5W-50 WITH an Air to Oil cooler to provide robust protection during hard track use. While 5W-50 is going to be too thick for street use, I can't see 5W-30 being an issue by any means for hard street, drag and auto x. Very interesting they run 5W-50 on the stock 2nd gen 5.0 for track. Not so different than the track pack S197's that called for 5W-50.

Seems to me the ideal solution is a good 5W-20 or 5W-30 for street and switch to 5W-50 for HPDE events, then switch back. The GT350 also runs 5W-50 and that's with an Air to Oil cooler as well, not water to air. PUP 5W-30 + Ford Performance FL820 filter is looking like a very robust street solution.

 

[engineermike]

Don’t rule out euro oils, especially for performance use! The hths, tbn, and ad pack are more robust than their us counterparts.

 

[engineermike]

On a mustang, I would use this:

https://www.pennzoil.com/en_us/prod...57d9294bf4aa/Pennzoil_Platinum_Euro_5W-30.pdf

....Over the ultra platinum. It has a higher hot vis, higher hths, higher tbn, and more zddp.

 

[accel]

So in the 2015's with STOCK PCM calibration, 435 hp, 400 ft-lbs, are running Castrol Edge Super Car 5W-50 WITH an Air to Oil cooler to provide robust protection during hard track use.

I'm stocked with castrol edge 5w20 (with ceratec) for my next oil change. Despite general bias towards pup.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Just wanted to add some interesting information. I have suggested there was a possibility that the ECU calibration could be a sticking point due to how the cam phasors are calibrated regarding viscosity at the behest of Ford Performance. That appears to NOT be the case regarding ECU calibration. Take a look at some info provided by @Grimreaper on the Voodoo 5.2L stock CTA phasor control tables vs. the regular 5.0 CTA phasor control tables:

edit: no difference in time constant from 5.2 to 5.0 tune.

At least regarding the time constant, it is the same for the 5.2 and 5.0. 5.0 runs on 5W-20, 5.2 runs on 5W-50...only difference is they will be slow until the oil is warmed up to operating temps which is true for any VVT car. At this point I see absolutely NO reason you cannot run anywhere from 5W-20 all the way up to 5W-50. The differences will primarily be in peak power (drag loss differences), bearing protection, fuel economy and engine clatter and finally what operating temp are you targeting. 5W-50 is a bit thick for street use, it's just not going to get hot enough. But 0W / 5W - 40 / 50 weights should be a good track oil while 0W / 5W - 20 / 30 weights should be a good street weight with emphasis on 30 wts for harder driving conditions.

I just may make the switch to PUP 5W-30 and the Ford Racing FL820 filter next OC...

 

[TheLion70x77]

I like to summarize things as the information is a bit scattered, here is a summary of what we know regarding the differences in oil viscosity specifications across the various Coyote based Mustangs:

S197 Chassis (1st Gen 5.0)
2011-2014 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for US and no oil cooler
2011-2014 Mustang GT Track Pack - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler, ECU calibration has neutered over temperature safeties to my knowledge unlike the regular GT's for this generation.
2013-2014 Mustang Boss 302 - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler and a special variant of the 5.0 code named Road Runner (higher strength powder forged rods, re-balanced crank, higher valve lift, stiffer valve springs, CNC ported heads, oil squirters deleted, high flow intake manifold, rev limit at 7,400 rpm). ECU calibration has neutered over temperature safeties.

S550 Chassis (2nd Gen 5.0)
2015-2017 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for US with 1" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian version 5W-20 original spec, switched to 5W-30 spec, UK version spec 5W-20 like US. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Mustang GT Performance Package - 5W-20 for US with 1.5" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian version 5W-20 original spec, switched to 5W-30 spec, UK version spec 5W-20 like US. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Shelby GT350 - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Shelby GT350R + Track Pack - 5W-50 with air to oil cooler and differential cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. ECU has over temperature safeties.

S550 Chassis (3rd Gen 5.0)
2018-2019 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for Street and 5W-30 for Track as per user manual, 1" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian and UK version same oil specifications. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2018-2019 Mustang GT Performance Package Level 1 and 2 - 5W-20 for Street and 5W-30 for Track as per user manual, 1.5" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian and UK version same oil specifications. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2018-2019 Shelby GT350/R - 5W-50 with air to oil cooler and differential cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. Track Pack cooling is now standard on all variants due to the significant customer complaints with the earlier ones over heating (non-track pack). ECU has over temperature safeties.

Ford Racing School 2015 Mustang GT Performance Package cars are upgraded with a custom Air to Oil cooler, larger radiator, full racing seats, 4 point harness and roll cage, Ford Performance Track Handling Pack but run a bone stock 5.0L V8 on the factory ECU calibration for 2015 models. They run Castrol Edge Supercar 5W-50 and a FL-500S filter. I e-mailed them and those are the specs they provided including pictures of their air to oil cooler.

Things we know about the ECU tuning: Cam phasor control tables for the Voodoo 5.2L appear to be identical to those in the regular Coyote 5.0L. Voodoo 5.2L calls for 5W-50 all the time while the 5.0L ranges from 5W-20, 5W-30 and 5W-50 in it's various iterations throughout the last eight years (2011 up to 2019) and including different oil viscosity specifications for Australian 2015-2017 Mustang GT's than their US and UK counterparts. Also on OP from the UK said his Ford UK dealer refused to honor warranty with anything less than 5W-30. While that was just a single dealer, he seemed to indicate it was one of the larger Ford dealers in the UK.

Ford Shop Manual Rod Bearing-to-Crank Clearance Range: 0.0011 to 0.0027 inches. The nominal (average) clearance of the extreme spread int he spec is 0.0019 inches. I believe to the best of my knowledge the bearing shells are supplied by Clevite (a sub-company of Mahle).

Ford Coyote 5.0L Rod Journal Dia. size is 2.082 inches according to Ford Racing's Basic Engine Dimensions spec sheet. Clevite recommends 0.0007" clearance added for ever 1" of bearing size and +0.0005 clearance on top for performance engine builds. So (0.0007 * 2.082) + 0.0005 = 0.00196" Rod Bearing-to-Crank Journal clearance.

Gee, this is exactly what the nominal clearance on the both the Coyote 5.0L production engine is and ALSO on the Ford Performance Aluminator Voodoo 5.2L with Manly forged rods and Mahle forged pistons as per their data sheet that is rated at 580 HP - 445 ft-lbs torque with an 8,250 RPM rev limit. Am I missing anything? Maybe at last we can put to rest the debate about weather a production 5.0 can safely run higher viscosity oils and why the differences generation to generation.

Also note just for reference, the 5th Gen LT1 based Camaro SS (6th gen Alpha Chassis) calls for 5W-30 for normal operations and 0W-40 or 5W-40 for track use. While it can run on 87, the user manual advises to run 91 octane and that pinging may occur on lower octanes. The Hemi 392 (6.4L) calls for 0W-40 all the time and requires a minimum of 91 octane.

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