Anyone changed there oil to 5w30 and encounter a problem, failure or any weird noises?

[Deleted member 35786]

Changing my oil soon and it will be WalMart Supertech full sythetic 5W-20, unless Mobil 1 is on sale for a good price.. Just a DD car that will never see a track. No tick so far at 27K miles.

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[shogun32]

WalMart Supertech full sythetic 5W-20

you know you can order Royal Purple from Walmart, right? Heck, the fanciest Penzoil is what, $32/5qt jug and might even include a filter in that price? It's not like you're faced with the prospect of $40/qt oil (Shell something for Porche/exotic). IMO the last place I would economize is oil. Skip the Chipotle and Starbucks and before you know it you can find enough pocket change for the known good oils. I've seen the full data sheet on the Supertech and it's not garbage or anything but the base stock is different.

 

[Grimreaper]

I like to summarize things as the information is a bit scattered, here is a summary of what we know regarding the differences in oil viscosity specifications across the various Coyote based Mustangs:

S197 Chassis (1st Gen 5.0)
2011-2014 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for US and no oil cooler
2011-2014 Mustang GT Track Pack - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler, ECU calibration has neutered over temperature safeties to my knowledge unlike the regular GT's for this generation.
2013-2014 Mustang Boss 302 - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler and a special variant of the 5.0 code named Road Runner (higher strength powder forged rods, re-balanced crank, higher valve lift, stiffer valve springs, CNC ported heads, oil squirters deleted, high flow intake manifold, rev limit at 7,400 rpm). ECU calibration has neutered over temperature safeties.

S550 Chassis (2nd Gen 5.0)
2015-2017 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for US with 1" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian version 5W-20 original spec, switched to 5W-30 spec, UK version spec 5W-20 like US. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Mustang GT Performance Package - 5W-20 for US with 1.5" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian version 5W-20 original spec, switched to 5W-30 spec, UK version spec 5W-20 like US. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Shelby GT350 - 5W-50 with water to oil cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2015-2017 Shelby GT350R + Track Pack - 5W-50 with air to oil cooler and differential cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. ECU has over temperature safeties.

S550 Chassis (3rd Gen 5.0)
2018-2019 Mustang GT - 5W-20 for Street and 5W-30 for Track as per user manual, 1" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian and UK version same oil specifications. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2018-2019 Mustang GT Performance Package Level 1 and 2 - 5W-20 for Street and 5W-30 for Track as per user manual, 1.5" radiator and water to oil cooler, Australian and UK version same oil specifications. ECU has over temperature safeties.
2018-2019 Shelby GT350/R - 5W-50 with air to oil cooler and differential cooler for US only, Voodoo 5.2L FPC engine. Track Pack cooling is now standard on all variants due to the significant customer complaints with the earlier ones over heating (non-track pack). ECU has over temperature safeties.

Ford Racing School 2015 Mustang GT Performance Package cars are upgraded with a custom Air to Oil cooler, larger radiator, full racing seats, 4 point harness and roll cage, Ford Performance Track Handling Pack but run a bone stock 5.0L V8 on the factory ECU calibration for 2015 models. They run Castrol Edge Supercar 5W-50 and a FL-500S filter. I e-mailed them and those are the specs they provided including pictures of their air to oil cooler.

Things we know about the ECU tuning: Cam phasor control tables for the Voodoo 5.2L appear to be identical to those in the regular Coyote 5.0L. Voodoo 5.2L calls for 5W-50 all the time while the 5.0L ranges from 5W-20, 5W-30 and 5W-50 in it's various iterations throughout the last eight years (2011 up to 2019) and including different oil viscosity specifications for Australian 2015-2017 Mustang GT's than their US and UK counterparts. Also on OP from the UK said his Ford UK dealer refused to honor warranty with anything less than 5W-30. While that was just a single dealer, he seemed to indicate it was one of the larger Ford dealers in the UK.

Ford Shop Manual Rod Bearing-to-Crank Clearance Range: 0.0011 to 0.0027 inches. The nominal (average) clearance of the extreme spread int he spec is 0.0019 inches. I believe to the best of my knowledge the bearing shells are supplied by Clevite (a sub-company of Mahle).

Ford Coyote 5.0L Rod Journal Dia. size is 2.082 inches according to Ford Racing's Basic Engine Dimensions spec sheet. Clevite recommends 0.0007" clearance added for ever 1" of bearing size and +0.0005 clearance on top for performance engine builds. So (0.0007 * 2.082) + 0.0005 = 0.00196" Rod Bearing-to-Crank Journal clearance.

Gee, this is exactly what the nominal clearance on the both the Coyote 5.0L production engine is and ALSO on the Ford Performance Aluminator Voodoo 5.2L with Manly forged rods and Mahle forged pistons as per their data sheet that is rated at 580 HP - 445 ft-lbs torque with an 8,250 RPM rev limit. Am I missing anything? Maybe at last we can put to rest the debate about weather a production 5.0 can safely run higher viscosity oils and why the differences generation to generation.

Also note just for reference, the 5th Gen LT1 based Camaro SS (6th gen Alpha Chassis) calls for 5W-30 for normal operations and 0W-40 or 5W-40 for track use. While it can run on 87, the user manual advises to run 91 octane and that pinging may occur on lower octanes. The Hemi 392 (6.4L) calls for 0W-40 all the time and requires a minimum of 91 octane.

found a verified boss 302 tune and same year GT, unsure if GT is track pack. time constants for the VCT angles are quite a bit longer than s550 version 5.0s but i do think it may be a hardware limitation vs oil flow. ill check a few other s197 gt tunes just to make sure.

times shown are in seconds.

 

[shogun32]

however as they are instructor cars and their intention isn't to be absolute fastest, but fast enough and reliable after being beat on daily.

Key note here is that instructor cars don't get any rest. They get run every session back to back to back. Customer cars sit for 30 minutes cooling off till the next session arrives.

 

[Deleted member 35786]

you know you can order Royal Purple from Walmart, right? Heck, the fanciest Penzoil is what, $32/5qt jug and might even include a filter in that price? It's not like you're faced with the prospect of $40/qt oil (Shell something for Porche/exotic). IMO the last place I would economize is oil. Skip the Chipotle and Starbucks and before you know it you can find enough pocket change for the known good oils. I've seen the full data sheet on the Supertech and it's not garbage or anything but the base stock is different.

The car will not know the difference.

 

[engineermike]

The car will not know the difference.

You probably already know the supertech oil has a decent add pack and base oil. I believe it meets the specs and is cheap too. The flip side is that something like mobil1 and pennzoil are designed to exceed the specs and use better ingredients. I see both sides but your typical enthusiast who wants the best sees better oil as a cheap upgrade.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

The car will not know the difference.

It's that kind of put down of machines that ultimately leads Skynet to declare war on us.

 

[Deleted member 35786]

You probably already know the supertech oil has a decent add pack and base oil. I believe it meets the specs and is cheap too. The flip side is that something like mobil1 and pennzoil are designed to exceed the specs and use better ingredients. I see both sides but your typical enthusiast who wants the best sees better oil as a cheap upgrade.

I completely understand.. Been using it our cars that have well over 100k miles without blinking an eye.. Todays oil is light years better than say 20yrs ago, as long as it meets spec and you change it regularly thats all the matters.

 

[TheLion70x77]

So thus far we know VCT constants are same for S550 GTs but what Ford Performance told me about S197s is true, that they are different and the calibrations were tweaked for the higher viscosity oils.

Which is fine. What Ford's engine development team could do then is not what they can do now. S197s did not have mid lock CTA phasors, so they may have been more sensitive to tuning because of the limits of timing and no CMCV valve in the intake manifolds on the 1st gens either which affects idle quality and low end response.

1st and 2nd gen 5.0 phasors simply arent the same. All these hardware differences affect what they can and cannot do just like the enhancements for the 3rd gen over the 2nd gen 5.0s and what Ford could offer out of the box with the 3rg gen 5.0 over the 2nd gen 5.0.

 

[TheLion70x77]

Just wanted to add and FYI that Penzoil Ultra Platinum is now API SN Plus. I recall someone posted a while back about LSPI compatibility. My 5W-30 PUP came in the mail over the weekend from WM and the bottle is listed as SN Plus now.

LSPI isn't an issue for an NA 5.0 or any NA engine in terms of causing damage, however knock resistant formulas benefit NA engines as well because the formulas are less likely to cause knock which results in more aggressive timing being able to be used.

An oil catch can AND an LSPI resistant oil formula is a fine way to eliminate fuel octane dilution in extended high RPM conditions on the 5.0 and that fun sapping power fade that is common under track conditions when preventative measures are not taken.

 

[TheLion70x77]

This is why I use A3/B4 spec oils. The A3/B4 spec requires an HTHS of 3.5 minimum, which is higher than that required for a 30 or 40 by SAE.

Yes, but the thicker you go, the higher the drag losses and the greater the peak pressure loads in the bearing. Higher viscosity oils do generate thicker films even in the same clearance range (reference Substech articles), however the films are not as spread out within the bearing shell itself when using highly viscous oils with tight clearances. This increases peak pressures (and possibly bearing fatigue cracking) by reducing the area over which the pressure is spread out. So the upside is that the bearing has a thicker oil wedge (less prone to particle scuffing and film collapse), the down side is that the pressure is more localized (higher peak pressures) and slightly greater heat is generated locally.

I have no idea what rod bearing clearances BMW, VW, Mercedes etc. are running, but they may run old school by using thicker oils with greater clearances, many of their engines are FI AND rev out pretty well also, so that might be a big reason Euro Spec oils are what they are. High HTHS alone doesn't necessarily mean better in every application. And even despite Euro spec oils, there are plenty of BMW, VW, Mercedes owners with failed engines. The N54's for example were particularly prone to rod bearing failures. One of the fixes was to run SAE 10W-60 to extend bearing life over the BMW spec 5W-30.

The key is to balance drag losses, pressure uniformity and film strength (thickness) for the given bearing clearance. I'm working from the information given by Clevite (Mahle aftermarket) and King Bearings (SubsTech) that the ideal viscosity for the 0.002" clearance range is an SAE oil that produces about 10 cSt @ 100C, which provides the best balance of film strength, drag losses and pressure distribution and uniformity.

Engine components require oil viscosity to be in an ideal range for optimal performance — neither too low nor too high. According to MAHLE Clevite Inc., inadequate lubrication and oil contamination are responsible for more than 50 percent of bearing failures.

For example, cold start failure — caused by lack of lubrication and running up to full RPM before the engine is warm — can destroy bearing surfaces and lead to progressive failure. The ideal viscosity at a bearing is around 10cSt or slightly higher depending on various factors such as the load, rpm and design or dimensions of the bearing shells. Much higher than this and drag results; much lower than this and boundary lubrication issues occur. (Image — MAHLE Clevite Inc.)

You want just enough protection plus a small safety margin for the temperature range you operating in. Greater film strength for the sake of having greater film strength does us no good. 5W-50 will have better film strength than the Euro spec 5W-30 from Penzoil if you want to achieve ultimate film strength and it will be more ideal under extreme oil temperatures one might see on the track (270F to 290F), that's likely why Ford calls for 5W-50 in nearly all of it's top track cars. However the drag losses are high with 50 weights until they get really hot, so it makes no sense for street use, even hard street use.

Here's another recommendation for viscosity vs. bearing clearance:

How tight should the bearing clearances be in a high-perf or racing application? When running SAE 30 or thinner straight viscosity oil as well as modern multiviscosity oils, McKnight recommends a minimum 0.001-inch clearance for every 1-inch of shaft diameter:

Crank journal size on the 5.0L is 2.082" according to Ford Performance engine spec sheet. Factory clearance range is 0.0011 out to 0.0027 according to the shop manual. Ecoboost 2.3L clearance is 0.0011 out to 0.0020, a bit tighter. Ecoboost calls for 5W-30 for regular use and sees a higher load per a bearing, my EB ran up to 25 PSI peak boost with the Ford Performance Power Pack on it, manual calls for 5W-50 for track (2018's and up) to manage heat induced thinning (turbos run hot).

SAE 5W-30 is right in the sweet spot for a nominal clearance of 0.0019" (the middle of the extreme spread) and falls in line with the 2018+ user manual recommendations for track use. Going up one viscosity is also what the Camaro SS calls for (5W-30 for street, 0W-40 or 5W-40 for track). Although we know there's no issue on the track using 40 and 50 weights in the same engine for experienced drivers that can push the car to its limits.

I'm of the mindset to use an oil that is just thick enough to provide the necessary protection to prevent severe wear and failure, but no thicker. I want ever HP i can get out of that engine WITHOUT compromising it's reliability and life span as a street car that will ultimately be turned into a dedicated track car in a couple of years when its paid off.

A high quality synthetic 5W-30 fits the bill. Another example is Hennessey, they run 5W-30 PUP in their 850 HP mustangs (says right on their web site), including one that set the land speed record of 207 mph (at the time) for S550's. FI loads (and heat) are greater than NA loads. I think a high quality SAE 5W-30 is just right, but I see no harm in using a Euro spec oil, I just think it's over kill and your incurring more drag losses than are necessary, both in the bearings and elsewhere.

 

[engineermike]

... I see no harm in using a Euro spec oil, I just think it's over kill and your incurring more drag losses than are necessary, both in the bearings and elsewhere.

The Euro spec is more than just an HTHS. Yes, the A3/B4 and C3 specs all call for an HTHS of >3.5, while SAE J300 only requires >2.9 for XW30. So, if you compare an A3/B4 XW30 to your typical SN XW30, you'll see they are both, in fact, still a 30 weight per J300, but the A3/B4 XW30 will retain its viscosity better as temperature increases above 100 C. This can be done with more VII or better base oil, of course. Anyway, A3/B4 gets you more than just a slightly higher HTHS; it also gets you a higher starting TBN and higher concentration of ZDDP (though not typically as high as HDEO). The difference in viscosity between a A3/B4 XW30 and an SN XW30 is tiny, vs the difference between an SN XW30 and, say, and SN XW40 or XW50, both of which perform satisfactorily as well. It's almost splitting hairs, as you are subdividing the 30 category into thin vs thick 30 and adding a little more "good stuff" to the Euro oil.

Anyway, I reviewed some pretty conclusive testing a while back that indicated that lower viscosity actually reduces wear right up until the point of catastrophic failure. So, higher viscosity helps prevent failure, which generally happens in off-design operation or due to out-of-spec or poorly designed parts, but it also sacrifices long-term wear rates and fuel economy. Higher ZDDP reduces wear up until about 1400 ppm Phosphorus, but SN limits you to 800. Higher ZDDP actually also reduces fuel economy, but the difference is tiny. In a commuter vehicle with no defects and no off-design operation (overheat, bad gas detonation, LSPI, etc), I would say the optimum oil would be a 20 weight or less with 1000-1200 ppm Phosphorus. However, no such spec exists that I am aware of.

 

[Zinc03svt]

I did first change @ 3100 miles to PUP 5w20. Getting ready to change it @ 7000 miles again, but moving to the PUP 5w30 for summer heat. Plus I’m running E85 pretty much exclusively.

 

[BmacIL]

The Euro spec is more than just an HTHS. Yes, the A3/B4 and C3 specs all call for an HTHS of >3.5, while SAE J300 only requires >2.9 for XW30. So, if you compare an A3/B4 XW30 to your typical SN XW30, you'll see they are both, in fact, still a 30 weight per J300, but the A3/B4 XW30 will retain its viscosity better as temperature increases above 100 C. This can be done with more VII or better base oil, of course. Anyway, A3/B4 gets you more than just a slightly higher HTHS; it also gets you a higher starting TBN and higher concentration of ZDDP (though not typically as high as HDEO). The difference in viscosity between a A3/B4 XW30 and an SN XW30 is tiny, vs the difference between an SN XW30 and, say, and SN XW40 or XW50, both of which perform satisfactorily as well. It's almost splitting hairs, as you are subdividing the 30 category into thin vs thick 30 and adding a little more "good stuff" to the Euro oil.

Anyway, I reviewed some pretty conclusive testing a while back that indicated that lower viscosity actually reduces wear right up until the point of catastrophic failure. So, higher viscosity helps prevent failure, which generally happens in off-design operation or due to out-of-spec or poorly designed parts, but it also sacrifices long-term wear rates and fuel economy. Higher ZDDP reduces wear up until about 1400 ppm Phosphorus, but SN limits you to 800. Higher ZDDP actually also reduces fuel economy, but the difference is tiny. In a commuter vehicle with no defects and no off-design operation (overheat, bad gas detonation, LSPI, etc), I would say the optimum oil would be a 20 weight or less with 1000-1200 ppm Phosphorus. However, no such spec exists that I am aware of.

Redline 5W30 checks a lot of boxes. 3.7 HTHS, 6.0 NOACK, and ~1200 ppm Zinc.
https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/4851640/1

The 5W20 version has similar additive package and 3.0 HTHS (high for a 20).

 

[Schwerin]

I'm flushing my first fill at 1k after break in with 5w-30 synth blend then, dumping that at 5k with full synth 5w-30.

I only do about 5k/yr and while time isnt really what breaks down oil It's just an easy thing to remember that oil/inspection is every year.

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