A10 tranny lugging in 10th - anyone else?

[Rash]

Oh brother do I understand. :lol: Thankfully the wife supports me jumping into the car once in a while to get some stress out. We don't have kids but we have a lot of nieces and nephews plus I manage a 5 office cancer clinic network by myself so being able to just get in the car and hit some country roads is really helpful, I almost have a 1,000 miles on the car already after just 3 weeks tomorrow.

More so than getting onto my motorcycle.

I'm out of town the next three weekends after this one - soccer tournaments, 90th birthday parties, etc etc. Last night when I was settling in to watch the Cavs/Pacers, my wife's laptop lost it's internet connection ability, so me being the go to IT professional in the house (read - only one that has a clue what the problem is), my next few hours were dealing with that (still not done). And that's how it goes daily. When you have kids, especially middle school and high school age, you are basically a walking google. "Dad, why" this and Dad, how" that. They should just rename Google to Dad. Even with Alexa in the house, I am still the go to search engine. Don't get me wrong, I love it and will miss it when they're gone, but every question turns into a two hour research and education project, so not much Mustang time for Dad. :frusty:

Sponsored

 

[Loki-GT]

I'm out of town the next three weekends after this one - soccer tournaments, 90th birthday parties, etc etc. Last night when I was settling in to watch the Cavs/Pacers, my wife's laptop lost it's internet connection ability, so me being the go to IT professional in the house (read - only one that has a clue what the problem is), my next few hours were dealing with that (still not done). And that's how it goes daily. When you have kids, especially middle school and high school age, you are basically a walking google. "Dad, why" this and Dad, how" that. They should just rename Google to Dad. Even with Alexa in the house, I am still the go to search engine. Don't get me wrong, I love it and will miss it when they're gone, but every question turns into a two hour research and education project, so not much Mustang time for Dad. :frusty:

I hear you and would trade in a heartbeat. The wife and I tried for a long time for kids and it wasn't meant to be. So now, we bring in the nieces and nephews, spoil them rotten, give them very loud toys to take home to drive our siblings crazy with. :lol:

Toys these days can be so mind bogglingly loud, I LOVE IT.

 

[c-rizzle]

I'm guessing you didn't read the problem.

Its lugging. If it had more power (higher octane), or better gears the ratio would be easier for the car to accelerate. And its in D mode so its trying to conserve gas in its standard mode b/c of EPA regulations, etc.

I'm guessing you didn't read my response b/c any one of those 3 changes would help the problem.

I kind of think its this problem....

I've seen people "scared" to mash the gas to fix the lugging / low rpm problem. They gently hit the accelerator and when it doesn't take off they hold it there, fearing its like a manual and its just going to struggle or stall out. But this is a smart auto, give it more throttle to get out of that lugging behavior. Give it enough gas to make it downshift or accelerate harder get RPMs up faster. Problem solved. Do it enough and the car will realize you're a man with balls and like horsepower! Not a granny looking to conserve MPGs.

 

[Ace21]

I think there needs to be a few clarifications in this thread on how Ford calibrates their ECUs when it comes to fuel. Ford tuned the base tables for 87 octane and the power ratings are for that octane without strained conditions, i.e. abnormal load vs rpm, above average ambient temps, or above normal component heat soak temps.

Then there are timing additive tables along with fueling vectors to control performance levels either by adding performance or taking it away to keep the constraints of knock, base timing, and base fuel mapping inline vs load and rpm.

Now along with the base timing and fuel mapping the ECUs are coded with algorithms that will not exceed X amount of timing over base and it will never go leaner than the base fuel mapping unless abnormal variables come into play, i.e. o2s go bad, lose and injector, fuel pump starts to run into it's limit or fail.

Most that see a slight power gain if they run 93 on stock mapping will be because the condition of the lower grade fuel and/or their normal driving areas are insufficient in comparison to the tested fuel quality and environment that was used by the Ford engineers when setting up the stock ECU configuration.

From all of the NA cars that I have tuned and/or examined in stock configuration before tuning, the real benefit of running the highest grade fuel on stock ECU configurations is that it allows for more consistency, because more octane keeps knock in check, which helps keep cylinder temps in check, which also helps keep engine temps within normal constraints.

Now from a MPG point, I have seen data before for X car gaining X MPG by using higher grade fuel, however, I have not experienced this first hand with fuel quality also being verified for both the lower and higher grade fuels. Ford has tried it's very best to make sure that their vehicles will run consistent even in the states that get total sh!t fuel.

I would like to state though that I am relatively new to the Ford ECU configurations, so all of this is just what I have observed from prior platform tuning experiences and from tuning my 2016 GT and 2016 F150 3.5EB. I started messing around with my 2016 GT PP 6MT before I traded up for my 2018 GT PP A10, so I will have more info on the new model once I get it broken in and some time to dive into it.

 

[Loki-GT]

Its lugging. If it had more power (higher octane), or better gears the ratio would be easier for the car to accelerate. And its in D mode so its trying to conserve gas in its standard mode b/c of EPA regulations, etc.

I'm guessing you didn't read my response b/c any one of those 3 changes would help the problem.

I kind of think its this problem....

I've seen people "scared" to mash the gas to fix the lugging / low rpm problem. They gently hit the accelerator and when it doesn't take off they hold it there, fearing its like a manual and its just going to struggle or stall out. But this is a smart auto, give it more throttle to get out of that lugging behavior. Give it enough gas to make it downshift or accelerate harder get RPMs up faster. Problem solved. Do it enough and the car will realize you're a man with balls and like horsepower! Not a granny looking to conserve MPGs.

Mashing the gas doesn't help anything. Giving it more throttle is correct, mashing is not. If ANYBODY has to mash the throttle they need to take the car back and get it serviced.

This has nothing to do with being a man, what are you 5?

 

[Loki-GT]

I think there needs to be a few clarifications in this thread on how Ford calibrates their ECUs when it comes to fuel. Ford tuned the base tables for 87 octane and the power ratings are for that octane without strained conditions, i.e. abnormal load vs rpm, above average ambient temps, or above normal component heat soak temps.

Then there are timing additive tables along with fueling vectors to control performance levels either by adding performance or taking it away to keep the constraints of knock, base timing, and base fuel mapping inline vs load and rpm.

Now along with the base timing and fuel mapping the ECUs are coded with algorithms that will not exceed X amount of timing over base and it will never go leaner than the base fuel mapping unless abnormal variables come into play, i.e. o2s go bad, lose and injector, fuel pump starts to run into it's limit or fail.

Most that see a slight power gain if they run 93 on stock mapping will be because the condition of the lower grade fuel and/or their normal driving areas are insufficient in comparison to the tested fuel quality and environment that was used by the Ford engineers when setting up the stock ECU configuration.

From all of the NA cars that I have tuned and/or examined in stock configuration before tuning, the real benefit of running the highest grade fuel on stock ECU configurations is that it allows for more consistency, because more octane keeps knock in check, which helps keep cylinder temps in check, which also helps keep engine temps within normal constraints.

Now from a MPG point, I have seen data before for X car gaining X MPG by using higher grade fuel, however, I have not experienced this first hand with fuel quality also being verified for both the lower and higher grade fuels. Ford has tried it's very best to make sure that their vehicles will run consistent even in the states that get total sh!t fuel.

I would like to state though that I am relatively new to the Ford ECU configurations, so all of this is just what I have observed from prior platform tuning experiences and from tuning my 2016 GT and 2016 F150 3.5EB. I started messing around with my 2016 GT PP 6MT before I traded up for my 2018 GT PP A10, so I will have more info on the new model once I get it broken in and some time to dive into it.

Well said.

 

[cobrapatrol]

"Stuck" at 1600-1700?? Wow, do you have 3.15's as well?

No, actually mine's a 3:55 PP1 Car. I'm using 91 fuel but AFIK there's no "octane switch" or sensor.

 

[w3rkn]

That's a very good point. Sometimes it not safe to jab at the throttle - you don't want the car lurching forward into the car in front of you. But light throttle isn't enough in 10th at 43-44 mph - it just lugs. Ideally Ford should recalibrate it so it downshifts into 9th at about 46-47 mph, not 42 like it does now. I don't get the lugging in 10th at 46-47 mph as I do at 42-43. Below 45 mph just seems to low a speed for 10th gear. Yea I could paddle shift it, but it's an AUTOMATIC transmission - I shouldn't HAVE to shift manually if I don't want to.

Interestingly, the manual (p 148) recommends upshifting from 9-10 at 49 mph for best fuel economy (for 3.15 rear). Yet my car will often shift into 10th at 46-47, and won't let go when decelerating until 42.

Anyway, I'll just paddle shift or use S mode and live with it. At least it doesn't seem to be just my car, and that was my main concern. There's always a tune I guess if it bothers me enough. I'm already getting used to it, so no big deal.

:frusty:

Yes it lugs, because you are lugging the engine and not stabbing it, like I mentioned.

Stabbing it 20% wont lurch your car forward if you are in 10th gear, it will cause the transmission to downshift... because it senses you want to move at a faster rate. Odd, that you are afraid to engage the engine while at 42 ~ 48mph and think your car is going to lurch forward if you give it partial throttle... (20% throttle..)?

Sounds like You are unable to modulate the throttle to force a downshift..?

Yeah, safe to say, just leave it in "S" mode. That is where you will get those "light" accelerations you are looking for... instead of having to step on the gas pedal to induce a downshift while driving in normal "D" gas saving mode.

Subsequently, if you leave it in S, you most likely won't have to use paddle shifters, it will sport shift on it's own & hold higher RPMs and also more sensitive to your acceleration needs. It is the exact mode you have been asking for and complaining you want your car to have.



Leave it in "S" for a month, then come back...

 

[Loki-GT]

:frusty:

Yes it lugs, because you are lugging the engine and not stabbing it, like I mentioned.

Stabbing it 20% wont lurch your car forward if you are in 10th gear, it will cause the transmission to downshift... because it senses you want to move at a faster rate. Odd, that you are afraid to engage the engine while at 42 ~ 48mph and think your car is going to lurch forward if you give it partial throttle... (20% throttle..)?

Sounds like You are unable to modulate the throttle to force a downshift..?

Yeah, safe to say, just leave it in "S" mode. That is where you will get those "light" accelerations you are looking for... instead of having to step on the gas pedal to induce a downshift while driving in normal "D" gas saving mode.

Subsequently, if you leave it in S, you most likely won't have to use paddle shifters, it will sport shift on it's own & hold higher RPMs and also more sensitive to your acceleration needs. It is the exact mode you have been asking for and complaining you want your car to have.

Leave it in "S" for a month, then come back...

Leave it in "S" for a month and let me know how much gas you went through. :doh: I see both sides, for him, he is driving normally and when mine typically downshifts his does not, I can be going uphill and not pushing any harder on the throttle and if needed it will drop to 9th while his seems to hang on but mine at the same RPM doesn't feel like it's lugging while he feels his does.

I wish he lived close by so I could ride and see how his behaves. He is going to be resetting the battery and using better gas so we'll see how it goes after he does this.

 

[Cobra Jet]

I’m not seeing how this “lugging” is such an issue, I mean, if you’re driving uphill and the trans is in 9th or 10th and it’s “lugging”, hit the (-) paddle 2x and get it to 7th and GO...

S550’s with the 3.15 rear and auto trans is like what Ford did to the first SN95 DOHC Cobras - mates them against a T45 5spd with a freaking 3.08 rear... you want lugging, you were lucky if the car could get out of its own way if doing 45 in 5th.... I took my 96 Cobra and had the rear gears upgraded to 4.30’s... THAT woke that car right up.

So if it’s too much of a hassle to blip the paddle down, then some of you might want to think about investing in a better rear gear ratio - because those are your only solutions.

And for those looking to buy a new 2018 S550 - get at least the base PP, you’ll automatically get the Torsen w/3.55’s!

 

[Loki-GT]

No, actually mine's a 3:55 PP1 Car. I'm using 91 fuel but AFIK there's no "octane switch" or sensor.

The octane prevents situations where ping can occur so it's not so much a switch as it is a condition the computer senses. 87 we know will be a condition the computer will have to adjust to constantly to keep pinging from occuring.

91 or 93 will allow for a wider range of operation since less ping (detonation) will be possible. Did I just preach to the choir? If so sorry, meant for the general reader who may not know.

 

[Loki-GT]

I’m not seeing how this “lugging” is such an issue, I mean, if you’re driving uphill and the trans is in 9th or 10th and it’s “lugging”, hit the (-) paddle 2x and get it to 7th and GO...

S550’s with the 3.15 rear and auto trans is like what Ford did to the first SN95 DOHC Cobras - mates them against a T45 5spd with a freaking 3.08 rear... you want lugging, you were lucky if the car could get out of its own way if doing 45 in 5th.... I took my 96 Cobra and had the rear gears upgraded to 4.30’s... THAT woke that car right up.

So if it’s too much of a hassle to blip the paddle down, then some of you might want to think about investing in a better rear gear ratio - because those are your only solutions.

And for those looking to buy a new 2018 S550 - get at least the base PP, you’ll automatically get the Torsen w/3.55’s!

The OP knows he can blip it down, we all may be a bit OCD expecting things from a transmission designed for performance and programmed to get every drop of mpg if possible to drop the gear automatically.

Agreed, higher gears like the 3:55 helps since I don't have this issue. I do think the Torsen should have been standard on all GT's, damn bastard bean counters.

 

[Rash]

For those who keep answering questions I didn't ask:

- Yes, I know it is lugging - the title of the post says "A10 lugging in tenth". I don't need an education on what lugging is.
- Yes, I know more throttle or paddle shifting will downshift and stop the lugging. I didn't ask how to stop the lugging.
- Yes, I know Sports mode stops the lugging as I clearly stated in my first post.
- Yes I know D mode is calibrated for fuel economy.

The ONLY question in my OP was if other A10 owners experience the same lugging and difficulty getting it to downshift. Since no other auto tranny car I've ever owned lugged like this or required such a hard jab of the pedal to get it to downshift, I wanted to determine if it was/is a possible issue with only my car or if it's common with the A10. Thanks to those A10 owners who posted their experience.

 

[Loki-GT]

For those who keep answering questions I didn't ask:

- Yes, I know it is lugging - the title of the post says "A10 lugging in tenth". I don't need an education on what lugging is.
- Yes, I know more throttle or paddle shifting will downshift and stop the lugging. I didn't ask how to stop the lugging.
- Yes, I know Sports mode stops the lugging as I clearly stated in my first post.
- Yes I know D mode is calibrated for fuel economy.

The ONLY question in my OP was if other A10 owners experience the same lugging and difficulty getting it to downshift. Since no other auto tranny car I've ever owned lugged like this or required such a hard jab of the pedal to get it to downshift, I wanted to determine if it was/is a possible issue with only my car or if it's common with the A10. Thanks to those A10 owners who posted their experience.

VERY well sated. :cheers:

 

[michail71]

I'm noticing a trend in cars:
Q50 RedSport
CRV
Altima
Civic

All of those I(and others) get better MPG in D, Sport or S+ than in Eco mode. I'm starting to think it's due to S and S+ modes making it easier to modulate the throttle.

Maybe Eco/D works for "normal" drivers, but if you know how to properly modulate gas and brake it actually makes it worse.

I agree. It's hard to modulate the throttle on many cars these days in their default eco mode.

I've also read theories it could be the more aggressive automatic downshifting reducing the need to idle the engine.

Sponsored