2019 Mustang GT (Manual) auto rev matching

[emcmtony]

I can't handle this level of boomer.

Good lord.

Please...this is not a boomer thing. I am a boomer and am PERFECTLY OK using the installed system and do not want to get into the nuances of double clutching and the impact on clutch wear. I drive the car the way it was designed, downshift when my instincts tell me to and brake when I am going to hit something if I don't. This is not a boomer thing.

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[geep81]

Unless you hand crank start your car, get off my lawn with your clowning on modern conveniences.

 

[shogun32]

downshift when my instincts tell me to and brake when I am going to hit something if I don't. This is not a boomer thing.

true enough, Millenials just plow into the back of the vehicle in front of them. Too busy texting to drive, natürlich

 

[TheSnowmanMafia]

Please...this is not a boomer thing. I am a boomer and am PERFECTLY OK using the installed system and do not want to get into the nuances of double clutching and the impact on clutch wear. I drive the car the way it was designed, downshift when my instincts tell me to and brake when I am going to hit something if I don't. This is not a boomer thing.

Do you also have some god complex that makes you think you are better than those who do utilize modern technology?

Downshift all you want but the way Norm talks is like he thinks he's better than everyone else who chooses to use the advancements in tech.

 

[shogun32]

Downshift all you want but the way Norm talks is like he thinks he's better than everyone else who chooses to use the advancements in tech.

I think you're taking it too personal. But he also doesn't own a car that has rev-match. His general point is that a driver should be facile with multiple techniques and not solely reliant on the fakakta computer to do everything for him, when biomechanical alternatives exist.

 

[emcmtony]

Do you also have some god complex that makes you think you are better than those who do utilize modern technology?

Downshift all you want but the way Norm talks is like he thinks he's better than everyone else who chooses to use the advancements in tech.

Whoa....not being an asshole at all. Hope u didn’t take it like that

 

[geep81]

the way Norm talks is like he thinks he's better than everyone else

Maybe that's more of a "you" perception. Norm is probably top 5 on this forum for helpful people trying to share knowledge in my book. He stated his opinions a little harshly, but I can't say I don't think a lot of other people here feel the same way. FWIW I don't agree with Norm here but I respect him for sure.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Wow, he's doing it the other way around: heel on the brake and toe on the throttle. I've never thought of that. Maybe I should give it a try.

There are several variations on H-T, so it really comes down to what works the best for any given individual.

Then how do you do it on the street? Do you postpone the downshift until the need for braking has ceased and it's time to accelerate again? I guess that could be an option.

It's situation-dependent. In general, I'll work to keep engine revs up where adequate response for conditions exists . . . I'm basically operating on a predictive basis all the time, so I'm usually getting the downshift accomplished before actually having to do it. A little initial braking may be involved, maybe a brief post-downshift brush of the brakes to load the front tires a bit at turn-in for a corner, maybe no brake usage at all.

What constitutes "adequate response" is subject to how enthusiastically I may be driving at the moment.

Usually, while braking, I can foresee the moment when I will be able to come off the brakes, and I estimate that by that time I will need to be in second/third/whatever, so I downshift in anticipation, and when the time comes to release the brakes and accelerate again I will be prepared and able to do it right away.

Most times I'll already be in the lower gear before the time to accelerate actually arrives.


Yeah, I do a lot of shifting. 20+ shifts (upshifts and downshifts combined) in the 4-mile trip to the grocery store, and that's if I hit all 5 of the traffic lights 'green' with no traffic just starting up again. My 5 mile in, 6 miles out commute in the same general direction used to clock in with close to a hundred shifts. Unlike yours truly himself, that's never gotten 'old'.


Norm

 

[blueskies925]

Every question is a valid question.
When downshifting, we have to apply some revs to prevent the tires from spinning and the car lurching forward. This action is what I call “rev matching” I grew up with that term and I don’t know if that’s the official term for it. The car sense what gear you are downshifting into and will apply the perfect rev so that you have a perfect and smooth downshift. It’s meant for cruising and stuff. Not really racing.

2019 models and up all come standard with rev matching. The other models you would have to see the inside your dash screen to see if it was added to your car as a feature. You can always buy the feature for like 300$. I have the feature already on the car so I just want to make use of it.

Where can I buy the feature for $300? I wish my 2018 GT came with it..

 

[Norm Peterson]

Downshift all you want but the way Norm talks is like he thinks he's better than everyone else who chooses to use the advancements in tech.

I can't help it if I come off a bit bluntly spoken on certain topics.

Nor can I help feeling that "driver assistances" such as this one answer questions that never needed to be asked in the first place.

I understand that DSGs absolutely need some sort of automated rev matching. But that's a whole different matter.


Norm

 

[Vlad Soare]

Most times I'll already be in the lower gear before the time to accelerate actually arrives.

Bingo! That's what I'm aiming for.

But I can't for the life of me imagine how I could do that unless
- either I shift while braking (which requires heel & toe), or
- I temporarily come off the brakes while I shift, then brake again (which isn't smooth at all, quite the contrary)

Here's a situation I encounter every day. I'm doing 45 mph in fourth gear. Suddenly a car in front decides to brake for some reason, be it a speed limiter, pedestrian crossing, whatever. So everyone behind it, including me, must brake as well. I need to slow down from 45 mph to about 15 mph in perhaps 120 yards. That's a fair deceleration rate, during which I need to downshift twice (or once, if I skip third).
So, what I do is downshift while braking (so that I will already be in second by the time I reach the spot where acceleration will be possible again) and praise God for the marvellous invention called auto rev match.
If I didn't have the auto rev match I would have to release the clutch veeeeery very slowly, to make it swallow the difference in revs and avoid jerking the car. But that would not be good practice, as it would wear the hell out of the clutch. Which is why I'm grateful for the auto rev match.

I would love to be able to match the revs myself without any assistance, but in such situations I simply can't figure out how that would be possible short of using heel & toe. Which is why I'm so curious as to how you're doing it.

 

[ice445]

Bingo! That's what I'm aiming for.

But I can't for the life of me imagine how I could do that unless
- either I shift while braking (which requires heel & toe), or
- I temporarily come off the brakes while I shift, then brake again (which isn't smooth at all, quite the contrary)

Here's a situation I encounter every day. I'm doing 45 mph in fourth gear. Suddenly a car in front decides to brake for some reason, be it a speed limiter, pedestrian crossing, whatever. So everyone behind it, including me, must brake as well. I need to slow down from 45 mph to about 15 mph in perhaps 120 yards. That's a fair deceleration rate, during which I need to downshift twice (or once, if I skip third).
So, what I do is downshift while braking (so that I will already be in second by the time I reach the spot where acceleration will be possible again) and praise God for the marvellous invention called auto rev match.
If I didn't have the auto rev match I would have to release the clutch veeeeery very slowly, to make it swallow the difference in revs and avoid jerking the car. But that would not be good practice, as it would wear the hell out of the clutch. Which is why I'm grateful for the auto rev match.

I would love to be able to match the revs myself without any assistance, but in such situations I simply can't figure out how that would be possible short of using heel & toe. Which is why I'm so curious as to how you're doing it.

Imo I've never known anything besides heel and toe while braking, all my training and instinct revolves around using the two together. I mean obviously you can blip the throttle independently and downshift, but then you're bringing the RPM's really high and engine braking more than you really need to. That's why I like the auto rev match, you can blend braking and engine braking together more seamlessly without having to heel toe.

 

[Vlad Soare]

That's why I like the auto rev match, you can blend braking and engine braking together more seamlessly without having to heel toe.

Indeed. That's why I like it, too.
But apparently there is a way to avoid blending shifting and braking altogether, so that you can do away with the auto rev match while still not needing to heel & toe. I'm very curious what that is. In the kind of traffic I drive in, with my style of driving, this seems impossible to me. But I can't rule out the possibility that I'm missing something, and I'm always happy to learn new tricks.

 

[pyrophilus]

I learned how to drive a manual in a 2000 Jetta (good God, that was 20 years ago!!!) With 105hp engine and a shifter that felt like the linkages were made of taffy. My wife (gf then) ground the clutch down trying to learn on it (her car).

I had a 2010 genesis coupe with 6mt and I remember the clutch replacement meant almost the entire bottom of the car had to be removed at $8000. Hyundai eventually covered clutch wear under warranty before they canceled the car.

When I got my 2015 EB, I tried to be so careful on my clutch wear. I always double clutched my downshifts and tried to match my revs (by ear). That being said, I do appreciate having the rev matching on the downshifts on the 19, as I am sure no amount of ear rev matching by me is going to match the computer. I am guessing (and hoping) that the introduction of rev matching allows for less number of folks from grinding their clutch into oblivion. As the EB base price is low enough, I am guessing many first time manual drivers will get in a mustang and will try stupid things like hitting the corners at high speeds while trying to just force two gears down with no amount of rev matching. While I agree with Norm that people should/could learn how to properly drive a manual car, most of the people that drive affordable mustang 6mt are probably not going to give a rat's ass about how a clutch system works. I try to bot hold my clutch in while idling at red light. A coworker said he can't drive a manual because he can't bother to hold down the clutch everytime he is off the gas pedal at a stop sign, I told him about how I don't do that because that would be extra wear on the throw out bearing. He has a puzzled look. He also downshifted and then GROUND his clutch to make the rev match down to the drive axel rotation, so when I said I use engine braking, he said he didn't understand why I would do that and wear out my clutch.

The shocking thing is, many other self-proclaimed "men's men" at my work who "knows" how to drive manuals agree with him and thinks I am being either OCD, or think I am delusional and think I am a boy-racer.

This being said, I am glad that ford put rev matching because I am all for anything that makes the manual seem more reliable for the masses as the reason why I gotta used 19 GT manual was because I am afraid manuals will become only exclusive in rare editions of mustangs in the future.

But for those people bashing Norm, he isn't being an elitist. He also doesn't own a 19, which again, is fine. People make it sound like the rev matching is a must for the Mustang. I happened to end up finding a 19 in the price range of the 18's that I was looking for, but I would have been perfectly happy with a 401a, non-pp, gt, with no rev matching.

Do I use rev-matching? Yes, but because I DD mine to/from work. I see people in their BMW's (there is a dealer 5 min away from my house) going 25+ over the 35 speed limit, come to a light, and then just slam their brakes and hit multiple downshifts on their shifter pedals, make their engine bunch against the rev limiter, make that God-awful, ra-tatatata sound, while screeching around the corner, and then mashing their gas pedal.

To me that person has NO IDEA how to actually drive a car with physics of momentum in mind.

I, too, and not trying to sound elitist, but I got my mustang because,
1. I enjoy hearing the V8
2. Enjoy shifting through gears
3. I enjoy hearing my engine rev
4. Enjoy thinking/knowing about what gear is appropriate for what situation, and knowing/learning how to properly get into them.
5. Enjoy hear my exhaust during revs
6. See #1

I am fine with people not wanting to care about the double declutching, rev matching by ear, etc. If you got a mustang (or like some of my coworkers that get bmws or audi automarics) because you want to vet the fastest linear acceleration, then, I say that's good for you. But stop telling everyone that you'd smoke a manual driver like me, "off the line", because I really did not get my mustang to, "smoke my competition" at every red lights.

I guess what I am saying is, people like Norm isn't upset and going off at folks that prefer automated assistance systems. He is just talking about his preference and views (which i mostly agree with), and that's why we have this forum, to share our opinions about our cars, of which Norm has contributed positively many number of times.

Will I give up rev-match now that I own one? Probably not. Will I turn it off when my wife is in the passenger seat? Probably not unless I want to hear about how jerky the car ride is. Is it a tech that enthusiastic driver's (that truly understand and practice proper shifting) NEED? Probably not.

Those of you(us) that think you are amazing at driving manual on 19× models, go turn off the rev matching and see how smoothly you can downshift. Norm isn't wrong, it's a "skill" and I think people who own cars with 6MT should really understand how to properly use their clutch.

There are several variations on H-T, so it really comes down to what works the best for any given individual.



It's situation-dependent. In general, I'll work to keep engine revs up where adequate response for conditions exists . . . I'm basically operating on a predictive basis all the time, so I'm usually getting the downshift accomplished before actually having to do it. A little initial braking may be involved, maybe a brief post-downshift brush of the brakes to load the front tires a bit at turn-in for a corner, maybe no brake usage at all.

What constitutes "adequate response" is subject to how enthusiastically I may be driving at the moment.



Most times I'll already be in the lower gear before the time to accelerate actually arrives.


Yeah, I do a lot of shifting. 20+ shifts (upshifts and downshifts combined) in the 4-mile trip to the grocery store, and that's if I hit all 5 of the traffic lights 'green' with no traffic just starting up again. My 5 mile in, 6 miles out commute in the same general direction used to clock in with close to a hundred shifts. Unlike yours truly himself, that's never gotten 'old'.


Norm

 

[shogun32]

If I didn't have the auto rev match I would have to release the clutch veeeeery very slowly, to make it swallow the difference in revs and avoid jerking the car. But that would not be good practice, as it would wear the hell out of the clutch.

absolutely FALSE!

Clutches are designed to be used in that manner. What kills clutches are suddenly dumping them when the shaft speeds are wildly different. Or failing to release the clutch fully before getting back hard on the gas. Say you're doing a 2-3 shift under hard accell and you plant your foot on the gas before your left leg is done and the engine runs away, that is what drives major heat and thus wear into the clutch plates.

[ aside: ever watch the start of a motorcycle race? 8000 RPM (or more) on the tach and the riders mostly dump the clutch, then have to pull it back to stop the wheelie, and you can hear them driving even more RPM into the engine while WHEE WHEE WHEE as they slip the clutch for all eternity as the bike gets up to speed. It's mind-boggling. When I raced I put 2500-3000 on the tach and rapidly but smoothly let it out while keeping RPM under 4k, and could then roll to 100% throttle while they were still destroying their clutch trying to catch up to the engine turning at 12,000-15,000 rpm. Not only could I pass riders at the start my clutch didn't need replacing every couple races. ]

On my little test circuit I come into a 200 deg climbing banked corner at 80mph in 4th, brake to 45mph and shift to 3rd. At around 55mph I push in the clutch, select 3rd and gently feed the clutch back in as I'm also tapering off the brakes while entering the first 1/4 of the turn. By 1/3 into the turn I'm back on the gas. Since I'm not heal-toeing yes I am smoothly dragging the engine up to the revs needed to match road speed. But since I'm also still braking the gap is narrowing by the moment.

If I'm coming into the corner less hot and by definition have more time to play, then the braking is broken up into 2 parts with a manual throttle blip in the middle. But even here the clutch is only SLOWLY melded back in. It's just that it has less to do since the shaft difference is less.

Lots of people seem to think the clutch is a 2-pole switch - on and off. It's not. It's a friction device that you use slowly and deliberately and gently. You know those hand strengthening grip thingies? You SQUEEEEEEZE them, not just mash them in your hand. Exact same idea.

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