2015-2016 Tech Pack and Base GT350 Cooler Solution Discussion

[Optimum Performance]

I was told the rb racing pumps are better then the mocal. I have absolute no experience with tranny pumps and if I decide to fix it by external pump I'd like to know I have a good quality reliable pump.

Dave, this one is the one I was referring to HERE

The US importer is on my opposite coast, I just need to see what my cost is on it. Market price is $399 but it's continuous duty rated with a 10,000 hour life, or if you drove your car for 1.14 years with never shutting it off ;)

You could go all Mocal with a non fan cooled cooler with hoses and fittings etc for around $800.

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[firestarter2]

Hmm to be fair ive done air to water intercoolers they are not complex and a tranny cooler pump could fail and you are just back where you started biggest risk is a leak depending on where you are pulling the oil from. That being said id be much more worried about warranty then reliabilty. Cost wise it should be fairly cheap

 

[shelbydave]

Dave, this one is the one I was referring to HERE

The US importer is on my opposite coast, I just need to see what my cost is on it. Market price is $399 but it's continuous duty rated with a 10,000 hour life, or if you drove your car for 1.14 years with never shutting it off ;)

You could go all Mocal with a non fan cooled cooler with hoses and fittings etc for around $800.

Thank you sir!!
I was going to just buy the ford cooler and all needed brackets for ease of install..I feel the pump should be the rock star here so I'm focusing on that..

 

[zombiekiller]

The retail price on all the Ford Parts, lines, brackets, nuts, bolts, hoses, cooler retail for less than $800. Pumps retail for $300-400. FP is part of Ford. They don't pay what a person off the street pays. I think the transmission only runs $3K so as a kit that would likely be priced to pretty low. FP is probably doing the kit and if needed Ford Dealers will do the upgrade as a warranty type concession if it gets ugly.

i think here is where the miscommunication lies.

If you're going to do the trans pump, my personal opinion is, you REALLY should do the differential cooler/pump as well.

Once you extend the track time by cooling the trans, the rear end will absolutely get super toasty, to the degree that the GT guys do. The issue there is the tech pack gt350s dont have the thermal sensor to tell the computer " i'm way too hot bro" and potential damage will ensue.

The challenge with the traditional oil scavenge pumps for the rear end is one where they have to be mounted vertically to ensure efficiency and prevent starvation/interrupted flow. The ford OEM dif pump is engineered for the mounting location and does not need to sit vertically.

I hadnt seen that mocal pump before procuring the RBracing pump that I'll be using. it's interesting. I'd love to see one in hand sometime.

As for the other miscommunication on cost, you're assuming that the cooler lines for the trans would end up being identical to the factory lines. They can't be. FP will absolutely need to re-engineer the lines for an external pump configuration. While at the same volume, the cost might be similar, it wont be the same sales volume and thus will have an inherent R&D cost that cannot be amortized across as many customers. Thus, more expensive. You'll also need to bake in cost for fittings on the trans side, which dont exist in the factory cooler cars. Take into account additional wiring R&D, etc etc and i think you'll find that the cost from FP will be at least 50% more than you're anticipating.

When doing this with AN fittings and line, there is about 150-200 bucks in lines/fittings that need to be spent.

For the full trans swap out, the external pump option for the trans and the differential cooler kits, there is computer/control engineering that also needs to be done which will also add a tangible cost.

I fully expect FP's pricepoints to be set up on a $2500-3K range for the electric trans pump cooler/differential cooler and approx double that ( maybe a little more) for the trans swap/rear differential packages. I would be hard pressed to believe that Ford would create 5 different skus to seperate out the trans and differential coolers, based on what has been discovered, unless they figure out how to use the same part number for the differential cooler for both the regular GTs and the GT350, which would be an interesting engineering feat on its own.

Sorry, not trying to come off as crass, but i've been working on a high quality solution to this problem since i experienced it ( 4 months-ish).

I also REALLY wish there was an upgraded clutch line option for the GT350, but alas, there is not.

I did try to work with a couple of the racing shops that FP recommended, BUT, as soon as they heard from FP that there was a project in progress to address the challenge, they opted to not invest in coming up with a solution, more than like based on a too risky ROI for them.

 

[Optimum Performance]

Thank you sir!!
I was going to just buy the ford cooler and all needed brackets for ease of install..I feel the pump should be the rock star here so I'm focusing on that..

i think here is where the miscommunication lies.

If you're going to do the trans pump, my personal opinion is, you REALLY should do the differential cooler/pump as well.

Once you extend the track time by cooling the trans, the rear end will absolutely get super toasty, to the degree that the GT guys do. The issue there is the tech pack gt350s dont have the thermal sensor to tell the computer " i'm way too hot bro" and potential damage will ensue.

The challenge with the traditional oil scavenge pumps for the rear end is one where they have to be mounted vertically to ensure efficiency and prevent starvation/interrupted flow. The ford OEM dif pump is engineered for the mounting location and does not need to sit vertically.

I hadnt seen that mocal pump before procuring the RBracing pump that I'll be using. it's interesting. I'd love to see one in hand sometime.

As for the other miscommunication on cost, you're assuming that the cooler lines for the trans would end up being identical to the factory lines. They can't be. FP will absolutely need to re-engineer the lines for an external pump configuration. While at the same volume, the cost might be similar, it wont be the same sales volume and thus will have an inherent R&D cost that cannot be amortized across as many customers. Thus, more expensive. You'll also need to bake in cost for fittings on the trans side, which dont exist in the factory cooler cars. Take into account additional wiring R&D, etc etc and i think you'll find that the cost from FP will be at least 50% more than you're anticipating.

When doing this with AN fittings and line, there is about 150-200 bucks in lines/fittings that need to be spent.

For the full trans swap out, the external pump option for the trans and the differential cooler kits, there is computer/control engineering that also needs to be done which will also add a tangible cost.

I fully expect FP's pricepoints to be set up on a $2500-3K range for the electric trans pump cooler/differential cooler and approx double that ( maybe a little more) for the trans swap/rear differential packages. I would be hard pressed to believe that Ford would create 5 different skus to seperate out the trans and differential coolers, based on what has been discovered, unless they figure out how to use the same part number for the differential cooler for both the regular GTs and the GT350, which would be an interesting engineering feat on its own.

Sorry, not trying to come off as crass, but i've been working on a high quality solution to this problem since i experienced it ( 4 months-ish).

I also REALLY wish there was an upgraded clutch line option for the GT350, but alas, there is not.

I did try to work with a couple of the racing shops that FP recommended, BUT, as soon as they heard from FP that there was a project in progress to address the challenge, they opted to not invest in coming up with a solution, more than like based on a too risky ROI for them.

:cheers: = Which is what I need to do right now

 

[firestarter2]

At that point sell your car and get a 2017

 

[shelbydave]

At that point sell your car and get a 2017

I hear that!! Fixing my brand new car is the last option for me.

 

[montreal ponies]

At that point sell your car and get a 2017

Easier said than done. IF i sell it now and IF i get what i paid for, i still have to order a base '17 car which will run me $10K more than the old base was and not to mentionned loose the car for the remaining of the summer.

I'd be in for a reasonable solution, hopefully one by FP.

I have driven the car pretty hard lately and have yet to experience limp mode.

 

[Leonard]

Dave, this one is the one I was referring to HERE

The US importer is on my opposite coast, I just need to see what my cost is on it. Market price is $399 but it's continuous duty rated with a 10,000 hour life, or if you drove your car for 1.14 years with never shutting it off ;)

You could go all Mocal with a non fan cooled cooler with hoses and fittings etc for around $800.

It's logical to target a 3 gpm pump as a solution as that is what Ford has said the integral gerotor pump in the track pack transmission flows but do we really need that much to make it through lapping sessions? (I recall reading that Ford did 24 hour enduro simulations when developing the cooling for the track pack).

Consider this pump which is rated at .75-1 gpm. It's not an inexpensive option but the small size does open up a lot of flexibility in terms of mounting if the flow rate doesn't limit cooling too much. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/15149/Differential_Cooler_Pump

It would take 4x longer (@.75gpm) to pass the full volume of the transmission through the heat exchanger than the track pack pump -- but since the flow rate is 1/4 it would spend 4x longer on each pass.

There will be some loss of heat exchange efficiency on the outlet end of the heat exchanger due to delta T but I don't know that it will be meaningful in the context of lapping sessions.

 

[Optimum Performance]

I think anything flowing through a HE would be an improvement. 3 GPM sounds awfully high when you consider the total system holds less than a gallon of oil. You are correct that more time would remove more heat but to a point. Say on a second stage water to air cooler you want max water flow to maintain a final mix temp. On this application as long as oil is circulating .75 would likely be more than enough to cool it, you are also adding about another qt to the system that can take heat away. If it wasn't you could always add a slim fan if there is room to take more heat away from the air side for lower speed operation. Personally I would try a real oil first and see if it helps-but I sell oil

 

[zombiekiller]

It's logical to target a 3 gpm pump as a solution as that is what Ford has said the integral gerotor pump in the track pack transmission flows but do we really need that much to make it through lapping sessions? (I recall reading that Ford did 24 hour enduro simulations when developing the cooling for the track pack).

Consider this pump which is rated at .75-1 gpm. It's not an inexpensive option but the small size does open up a lot of flexibility in terms of mounting if the flow rate doesn't limit cooling too much. http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product/15149/Differential_Cooler_Pump

It would take 4x longer (@.75gpm) to pass the full volume of the transmission through the heat exchanger than the track pack pump -- but since the flow rate is 1/4 it would spend 4x longer on each pass.

There will be some loss of heat exchange efficiency on the outlet end of the heat exchanger due to delta T but I don't know that it will be meaningful in the context of lapping sessions.

I'm considering using a variable voltage fan controller to tune the pump for optimal flow. I also think that the old racer trick of having larger fuel lines that hold an extra gallon of Gas method might work on this too. if the temps stay too high with my design, i think there is enough room in a few places on the car to add a framerail cooler to supplement the main cooler that might get you an extra quart.

 

[firestarter2]

Easier said than done. IF i sell it now and IF i get what i paid for, i still have to order a base '17 car which will run me $10K more than the old base was and not to mentionned loose the car for the remaining of the summer.

I'd be in for a reasonable solution, hopefully one by FP.

I have driven the car pretty hard lately and have yet to experience limp mode.

If you haven't experienced it yet why worry about it? Im curious how many people have actually experience the issue

Heres the thing if ford doesn't admit/think their is a problem why would they be working on a fix?

Its either the car has a issue and the fix should be free. Or there is no issue and Ford Performance is working on a upgrade for people who didnt want to buy a track pack but want to track their cars? I dont want to be negative but I dont see it.

 

[Leonard]

I also think that the old racer trick of having larger fuel lines that hold an extra gallon of Gas method might work on this too. if the temps stay too high with my design, i think there is enough room in a few places on the car to add a framerail cooler to supplement the main cooler that might get you an extra quart.

In order for the fluid to reach 290F the entire mass of the transmission (112 lb) is reaching ~290F as well. Adding a quart or two of fluid isn't going to 'average down' the temp by very much.

 

[zombiekiller]

In order for the fluid to reach 290F the entire mass of the transmission (112 lb) is reaching ~290F as well. Adding a quart or two of fluid isn't going to 'average down' the temp by very much.

I'm not worried about sustained temperature dissipation. What i would like is to get through the 30 min sessions during open track days at my home track.

Simple math says that if the external pump setup gets to 194ish after 25 minutes, and the trans takes a gallon of fluid, adding in 20% more fluid would get you to roughly 28 minutes before you hit the same 194.

That should put me at 210-215 after my 30 minute session.

More than likely, I will add a small fan on a switch to my cooler setup so that in between sessions, while the car is in the paddock, it will continue to cool down.

 

[Leonard]

I'm not worried about sustained temperature dissipation. What i would like is to get through the 30 min sessions during open track days at my home track.

Simple math says that if the external pump setup gets to 194ish after 25 minutes, and the trans takes a gallon of fluid, adding in 20% more fluid would get you to roughly 28 minutes before you hit the same 194.

That should put me at 210-215 after my 30 minute session.

More than likely, I will add a small fan on a switch to my cooler setup so that in between sessions, while the car is in the paddock, it will continue to cool down.

You're heating the entire mass of the transmission as well which means the additional fluid will be a small portion of the total thermal mass.

Consider... with the suggested cooler configuration you have a 112lb transmission and 3.5qts (roughly 7lb) of fluid (total 119lb) of mass from ambient temperature (say 90*) to 194 degrees. If you increase the fluid volume by 20% (to 4.2 qts == 8.4 lbs == +3.4lb) you have a total thermal mass of 122.4lbs. You have increased the thermal mass by 2.8% so you'll see a corresponding increase in time it takes to reach 194*. Thus 25 minutes becomes 25 minutes and 42 seconds. To do what you're expecting you would have to increase the thermal mass of the system by 20% (23.8lb). That works out to about 3 gallons of fluid (assuming 8lb/gallon)

Realistically -- with a cooler I expect to see the system reach an equilibrium temperature well below the limp mode threshold -- I'm not sure whether that is 195* or 220* but so long as doesn't reach limp mode I'm not overly concerned.

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