2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[BaylorCorvette]

Starting in the low $70's, maybe more!?!?!



Not sure if you know this or not but, we have been pretty accurate on our times and speeds. The car didn't run any faster than then the 7:37... I'm not discrediting the rain, I'm just merely pointing out that the ZL1 carried a 10-14mph advantage for an extended period of time. I credit the speed of the ZL1 and not the 10 seconds of rain... The track was dry for the rest of the 12.93 miles... The sun was shining in the first 1/4 of the track. You guys are just really overplaying this rain. I told you this pig wouldn't come close to the Z06... That's insane.

While I agree with some of what you said, it should be noted they claimed they achieved around 7:31, but for it to be official it must be filmed. Which it wasn't. Maybe they did maybe they didn't. However, I don't think one can just say with absolute certainty they NEVER ran faster. I don't see how a car can run faster when there was some rain, even if it was a light drizzle in a small area.

Like you said, GM was testing the Z/28 for a couple month stint. How is it possible it never ran faster when there were better conditions? It could be possible this was it's fastest filmed lap.

Just my opinion. At its current lap time I will HAPPILY stick with a ZL1 with all of the creature comforts.

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[Fenderaddict2]

"according to its top engineer, to "beat the shit out of anything Ford can put out on the road."

Really, years late to the game and he makes this blanket statement with new Ford product in the pipeline? He must love Ford blind-siding him at the Detroit Auto Show every year. I wonder if Al is an S&M fan?

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I'm sure the new Z/28 can kick my 2012 Boss 302's arse. But I've enjoyed that car for some time now, and it was relatively easy to get a hold of at the advertised price. Now I don't race it, if I did I would have bough a 302R, or 302S, so the fact that the Z/28 may not qualify for any sanctioned events isn't a strike against the car. It may be a cool car to own, it will perform where it should be allowed to, on the street and it will make a fine weekend track-day car....but...i can help but think at this point my Mustang or Camaro money (where ever you allegiance lies) might be better off held until the new platforms debut in 2015 and '16. This Camaro, as good as it may be in the long awaited Z/28 spec, seems a little too late to the party.

I absolutely agree with your assessment. I know the next gen Mustang is right around the corner and the 6th gen Camaro isn't too far behind.

Both will likely see serious changes, both in the design and in performance. Reason I got the 2013 ZL1 is because the 2014 Camaros look horrible (my opinion), the 2015s will likely stay unchanged and who knows what the 6th gen Camaro will look like and I was tired of my 2010.

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[thePill]

Sure the 'Ring isn't the end all be all. HOWEVER, it is widely accepted (globally) that the 'Ring is the world standard / benchmark for a vehicle and its capability. It is the best thing we have to compare a bunch of different cars on a wide level. Sure we have a lot of great tracks here in the States, but how many non American cars are tested at said track? Not as many as the 'Ring. I honestly do not see how anyone can say and truely believe that by a domestic auto manufacturer going over to the 'Ring to test/tune/tweak/etc a car is a "bad" thing.

Okay, I understand that it is a challenge... Listen to what I say here, it is super important....

IF, Nurburgring is the standard/benchmark for a vehicle and capability, then those results should carry back over to the American series of tracks right?

Well, that would be wrong... The ZL1 was developed on Nurburgring... It ran a fast time... Once it comes home, the GT500 is just as fast as the ZL1 in every comparison.

If the test results were so important, they should translate around the world to all the other tracks worldwide... However, we don't always see that. Most of the time, Nurburgring cars have a little extra modifications (see Porsche vs. Nissan) AND, since you can NEVER do a full lap on tourist days, it's expensive to rent an open track and it's on the other side of the world... Nobody can call them out.

However, you put Van's GT500 and Eric's ZL1 on a road course and the GT500 ate it alive. Nurburgring is not the standard, it's a distraction...

 

[thePill]

Here are the Milford results... The 2012 GT500 was faster than the 2012 Boss 302 at Willow with Randy driving on the same day... I don't know why they can't get a 2013 GT500 any faster... Video too...

Everything seems all and well until Chevy runs at a different track. I find it very hard to believe the GT500 and ZL1 were separated by 3 seconds when pro drivers, driving both cars on the same day can beat the ZL1 on short and medium tracks. These look limp wristed... The 1LE can't manage a 5.0 GT in SCCA T2, the ZL1 loses half it's road course comparisons and the z28 is just as fast as the ZL1 at Nurburgring.

The ZL1 lost, pretty decisively... Magazine sympathy wins don't count.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Okay, I understand that it is a challenge... Listen to what I say here, it is super important....

IF, Nurburgring is the standard/benchmark for a vehicle and capability, then those results should carry back over to the American series of tracks right?

Well, that would be wrong... The ZL1 was developed on Nurburgring... It ran a fast time... Once it comes home, the GT500 is just as fast as the ZL1 in every comparison.

If the test results were so important, they should translate around the world to all the other tracks worldwide... However, we don't always see that. Most of the time, Nurburgring cars have a little extra modifications (see Porsche vs. Nissan) AND, since you can NEVER do a full lap on tourist days, it's expensive to rent an open track and it's on the other side of the world... Nobody can call them out.

However, you put Van's GT500 and Eric's ZL1 on a road course and the GT500 ate it alive. Nurburgring is not the standard, it's a distraction...

The GT500 ran fast on American tracks as did the ZL1. You claim the GT500 ran a great time at the 'Ring. They both carry over then. Makes sense to me... What's the disconnect?

Because you say the 'Ring is a distraction doesn't mean that is what public perception is. Public perception sells cars, not a few car enthusiasts views. I wish it were the other way around.

The whole reason I've been posting here is that exact reason. You make some valid arguments I agree with and some I don't. However what a few extreme/knowledgeable auto enthusiasts say or believe isn't always what sells cars. It is public perception. The public will believe what they want and they will buy what they want. No matter what they are spoon feed or by whom feeds them.

 

[Red]

Interesting. Would like to reiterate that a cage adds considerable chassis stiffness. Yes, weight is increased, but performance is generally improved through consistent and fine-tuned suspension behavior.

Also, if I infer correctly from previous comments, if GM believes no one will notice the cage and intends to advertise the time as from a non-caged production version (or that the production version could attain 'essentially' the same performance), then I have to wonder what else differs between the 'Ring car and the production version.

I trust GM almost as much as I do Bernie Madoff....

 

[T-5 killer]

Interesting. Would like to reiterate that a cage adds considerable chassis stiffness. Yes, weight is increased, but performance is generally improved through consistent and fine-tuned suspension behavior.

Also, if I infer correctly from previous comments, if GM believes no one will notice the cage and intends to advertise the time as from a non-caged production version (or that the production version could attain 'essentially' the same performance), then I have to wonder what else differs between the 'Ring car and the production version.

I trust GM almost as much as I do Bernie Madoff....

I agree 100%, I would be more shocked if it wasn't a ringer than if it was. Most Automakers have ringers as presscars or when they do headline news stuff like timed ring runs. Look at Ferrari they have a horrid rep of having ringers.

 

[thePill]

It looks like the z28 could very well be set to start above $70,000. The Milford press release today was likely published to justify the projected MSRP. I feel most Camaro fans were disappointed at the time achieved. I think Team Camaro wasn't really happy either.

Low $70k, maybe more... I was hoping after the less than great Ring run, they would try to squeeze the z28 between the ZL1 and Stingray.

The GT500 ran fast on American tracks as did the ZL1. You claim the GT500 ran a great time at the 'Ring. They both carry over then. Makes sense to me... What's the disconnect?

Those cars should be developed on a wide range of tracks... The Boss was reverse engineered by Multimatic and it was one of the most dominating models in the last 10 years. Chevy must HATE the Boss 302, the ZL1, 1LE and now the z28. It appears Chevy actually had a z28 ready before the ZL1, most likely the real Boss competitor, and I mean in real racing. Al said it was over weight and under powered.

Al also stated the '12 Boss 302 LS is faster than the '13 GT500... Probably gonna have to back that up since Randy, MT and Youtube shows a '12 GT500 beating the Boss LS at Willow. That is a very tight track and, it shows that the old GT500 could handle, the new one is just a different car. Maybe when you guys drive it it becomes magically slower, maybe somebody's magically retarded... Chevrolet seems to be the only one that can decisively beat the GT500. Funny how that never happens in real life... Kinda like that "11's All Day" statement about the ZL1 when it's more like 12.3-12.7 All day. Maybe this is the famous GT500 simulation they made the ZL1 win in when the 662HP press release went out. That was the day drag racing died at GM...

If they want the Boss 302 so bad, why don't they just make a Camaro that is legal to race in all the Boss classes? That seems a lot easier to me... and maybe the 5th Gen can manage a championship. The Boss has championships... had the most wins in a season by a single model (SCCA record) and beat BMW's Grand Am with total season wins and podiums.

For $70-$80k, I'd get serious and buy a 302S... That is a competition ready, race car... Not some Half/Assed28. Another thing, this z28 is about to be fed to the 2015 SVT GT350. If Chevy sanctioned the z28 in SCCA, we could see the lap times of every track in America and compare them to everything else... Not a concern of Chevy's but, it is as transparent as you can get.

I agree 100%, I would be more shocked if it wasn't a ringer than if it was. Most Automakers have ringers as presscars or when they do headline news stuff like timed ring runs. Look at Ferrari they have a horrid rep of having ringers.

You got that right, here is GM getting busted running a Ringer. They pretty much didn't even care if people knew...

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/12/14/cts-v-challenge-driver-and-m3-owner-michael-cooper-gets-pat-on-t/

They issued a challenge, the kid comes in and beats all the CTS-V's in his personal M3, then they bring out John Hienricy in a ringer CTS-V... Lame... They run their mouths over and over again and it backfires almost every time... Stop talking, get the z28 in road racing, get the ZL1 back on the strip and support the LE some man...

 

[S550Boss]

I have personally been in a GT500 versus ZL1 session on a major road course, as instructor, and the GT500 lost overall. It's not about a small HP difference, it's about a HUGE suspension difference. And everybody who races know it's handling that counts.
The GT500 (and the Boss, which I own one of) has a horribly crude suspension. It hops skips and jumps at any and all imperfections. And has huge nose dive. This is why this antique suspension has run it's course - about 10 years over.
Road & Track also did the same thing, and even better it was fully instrumented. The GT500 had a few higher numbers on parts of the course where HP helps, but overall was way behind. And it's brakes also fell down in the end.
I have no doubt the Z28 will also do better than the Boss and GT500. Those carbon ceramic brakes are something that Ford's tiny little brakes and much smaller tires can't compete against. I had a unique opportunity recently to spend some time talking to a Brembo engineer who is embedded inside GM working on a daily basis with GM suspension engineers and the difference between that and what Ford is doing isn't quite night-and-day - but close. And on cars with magnetorheological shocks, Ford has no reply at all.
That said, the ZL1 and Z28 cost significantly more than the Boss... but not the GT500.
So lets face the numbers, the Boss has had it's run, it's obsolete, it wasn't enough to last more than 2 years. And the upcoming S550 special edition will make it look like a Model T.
And you'll note the S550 special edition has big carbon ceramic rotors on it. Front only on the prototypes, but with 6-piston Brembos front and 4 rear. Is Ford catching up, too little too late, or will there actually be something unique there? Only time will tell.

 

[Red]

Yeah, > $70k seems very expensive. I have to wonder what could be done with ~$30k put into a used Boss 302.

Also, in my opinion, "11's all day" means around 11.85 at the slowest, to cover weather and traction changes. That is a HUGE difference from 12.3, much less 12.7. Large enough to make me think someone was talking out their ass.

 

[stable68]

I honestly dont believe that the z/28 ran that fast, thats as fast as a 458. Chevy has been known for doing shady things such as posting a lap time for the zl1 around VIR but they didnt run the full course. I have heard that the boss 302 runs mid 7:40s around the ring and i remember reading on Camaro5 that when the gt500 was testing there they clocked it in the low 7:30s. Not sure on any of this info however.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

If they want the Boss 302 so bad, why don't they just make a Camaro that is legal to race in all the Boss classes? That seems a lot easier to me... and maybe the 5th Gen can manage a championship. The Boss has championships... had the most wins in a season by a single model (SCCA record) and beat BMW's Grand Am with total season wins and podiums.

:amen:

I have personally been in a GT500 versus ZL1 session on a major road course, as instructor, and the GT500 lost overall. It's not about a small HP difference, it's about a HUGE suspension difference. And everybody who races know it's handling that counts.
The GT500 (and the Boss, which I own one of) has a horribly crude suspension. It hops skips and jumps at any and all imperfections. And has huge nose dive. This is why this antique suspension has run it's course - about 10 years over.
Road & Track also did the same thing, and even better it was fully instrumented. The GT500 had a few higher numbers on parts of the course where HP helps, but overall was way behind. And it's brakes also fell down in the end.
I have no doubt the Z28 will also do better than the Boss and GT500. Those carbon ceramic brakes are something that Ford's tiny little brakes and much smaller tires can't compete against. I had a unique opportunity recently to spend some time talking to a Brembo engineer who is embedded inside GM working on a daily basis with GM suspension engineers and the difference between that and what Ford is doing isn't quite night-and-day - but close. And on cars with magnetorheological shocks, Ford has no reply at all.
That said, the ZL1 and Z28 cost significantly more than the Boss... but not the GT500.
So lets face the numbers, the Boss has had it's run, it's obsolete, it wasn't enough to last more than 2 years. And the upcoming S550 special edition will make it look like a Model T.
And you'll note the S550 special edition has big carbon ceramic rotors on it. Front only on the prototypes, but with 6-piston Brembos front and 4 rear. Is Ford catching up, too little too late, or will there actually be something unique there? Only time will tell.

:clap2:

Also, in my opinion, "11's all day" means around 11.85 at the slowest, to cover weather and traction changes. That is a HUGE difference from 12.3, much less 12.7. Large enough to make me think someone was talking out their ass.

It's pure BS to say the ZL1 "runs 11's all day." However many people down here (myself included) have ran low 12's consistently. Also hot lapping and getting around 12.3-12.4 and this is South East Texas.

 

[Overboost]

SVT has some tricks up their sleeve. Don't think this caught them off guard. If the rumors are correct, their next project should counter the Z/28 nicely.

 

[Red]

Nothing wrong w/ 12.3 - 12.4 in SE Texas. What's the DA for those runs (just curious)? A SC engine will be somewhat less susceptible to poor air than an NA engine, making the "11's all day" statement that much more suspect, given your results.

For me, it's the BS games GM plays (or appears to, perhaps I'm wrong) that utterly turns me off, not necessarily the cars themselves. After all, the cars are all designed, tested, advanced, etc. by engineers who are doing great jobs for the most part, regardless of the company. But the GM BS -- not for me. And should not be a part of anything in the broad engineering field. But, in the automotive field it is, sadly. Imagine this sort of behavior in the aerospace and nuclear fields... I can think of a couple times off the top of my head, and things ended very, very badly!

Don't know how you handle that heat and humidity -- not for me!

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