2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[thePill]

You wanna know what I really think? and remember, this is what I really, REALLY think...

I think the decision was made to change the z28 to a ZL1 after the Boss was released and went on a road racing rampage. It said heritage and echoed dominance... even BMW had problems with the Mustang. A year later, the ZL1 is released (and renamed)... I think they actually seen the mules running at the Ring in June, they were there for the record ZR1 and Z06 runs. Again, in November, the 662hp info is released... All simulations were based on the 2011 SVT/PP GT500 (thin stripes) and now, it had more power and better suspension.

I think the z28 was pushed back a bit, you can even see I was pushing for a 2013 Z28 with a concept. I wanted to get a '10-'13 bodied Z28 and then release the updated '14 version a year later. The '13 would have been a collector. It was appearent by then that a 1LE couldn't even hold it's own in the SCCA against base 5.0 GT's and, a supercharger was a no go... the LS7 is also a no go but they don't have an LS3 to do it so, an LS7 it is. Then comes the internal battle to not only, and finally decisively beat the GT500 but, to beat it's very own ZL1 too.

It was clear during the initial testing that the ZL1 and GT500 were pretty evenly matched on road courses, even though no one wants to admit that. So, they set out to make a Camaro that was "Faster than anything Ford had to offer".

In my mind, a 7:37 is pretty close to what I saw in Germany, June 2011. They were building a car for a counter-measure that never happened...

...The End...

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[All-Or-Nothing]

FORD just doesn't give a crap about Ring times.

 

[bballr4567]

That red car has a damn age too. Better look closely there.

You know damn well how a little rain is worse that a full out down pour on a track. To claim otherwise is pretty ignorant.

 

[thePill]

That red car has a damn age too. Better look closely there.

You know damn well how a little rain is worse that a full out down pour on a track. To claim otherwise is pretty ignorant.

Um yeah, that's why I mentioned the cages above... Red had a full cage (like the ZL1) and Black had a 6-8 point. No sense in releasing times when a full cage is not OEM.

I don't care about the few seconds of rain, the track was dry until the mini-carousel, the track was dry after the straight. Besides, I blame the lost time on the 10-14mph advantage the ZL1 had for about 20 seconds... The temps and DA were near ideal wth the exception of a 2 mile wide storm cloud.


All that said, the z28 has done over 30 laps at the Ring this year... With no rain and in the low/mid 60's. In better weather, sunshine and all , it could beat the ZL1. Rain didn't screw the z28, the ZL1's speed did.


One hero lap in an unsactioned, non-comp z28 isn't worth the extra $10,000...

The main point being missed is the fact that the z28 couldn't run better in better conditions. Those who cry rain are likely those that are unimpressed.

 

[bballr4567]

How do we know it couldn't do better? Your sources? Right.

To discredit the rain just shows your insane agenda against the car and makes it quite laughable.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The ZL1's speed is hard to overcome, 14mph is huge...

Of course it's huge.

But so is the fact that it was overcome even once (and then by nearly 4 seconds). Perhaps that's even the more impressive accomplishment.

It's hard to justify a $60-70k price tag when you are:


a.) Just as fast as the $56,000 ZL1 at Nurburgring

b.) Advertised slower in the 1/4 too (probably will be slightly faster real world)

b.) Slower than the $60,000 Stingray at Nurburgring

c.) Not sanctioned by Chevrolet for organized Road Racing (Nor will it ever be)

d.) Not legal for competition in any organization (Nor will it ever be)

e.) Not recommended for Drag Racing

f.) Stripped down with no stereo and optional AC

The Z/28 is clearly the wrong car for anybody who puts b (the first one) and e anywhere above the bottom of the list of priorities.

I'm under the impression that it's the sanctioning bodies who ultimately define competition legality. While it's probably true that the mfrs have some influence, it is not without limits. From your post about the ZL1's competing in SCCA, they aren't ZL1's in the normal sense if they aren't running the 580 HP LSA and MRC. IOW, it's hard to defend playing the "not race-legal" card against the Z/28 over things like the brakes and the wheel/tire package without also playing it against the ZL1 for its forced induction and damper technology.

Separate from any race series legality or a yet to be created race series, I still think there is room for a marginally streetable stripped version just as well as a more fully optioned brute force model. You just have to be a different sort to appreciate it, and in this day and age where mfrs are stuffing everything but the kitchen sink into every model in the lineup it is actually refreshing to have just one model that goes as directly against the grain as the Z/28 does.


Thanks for the overhead picture. What it shows is the rubber-banding I mentioned before at its shortest; 200-ish feet being as close as it would ever be. On average, it's going to be more like 550 feet and will range up to over 900. On continuous lapping were that possible, successive laps would show progressively greater gaps in that exact segment of the track. Keep in mind that both cars started at time = zero for their "first" laps, but the ZL1 would start Lap #2 already down by 3.whatever seconds.

You see this same rubber-banding in any race as well as in many amateur track day videos where the distance closes up under braking (hint: the time gap does not necessarily shrink).

Sure, 200 feet makes it sound like the Z/28 is struggling a bit given the initially stated performance target, but nearly two football fields on average and 900+ feet at maximum suggests that the Z/28 has got the ZL1 handled with a pretty good margin to spare. You'll perhaps agree that it is misleading to look at the gap in terms of distance? I think if the ZL1 had ever brought in a better 'ring time than 7:41 we'd have heard about it before.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

All that said, the z28 has done over 30 laps at the Ring this year... With no rain and in the low/mid 60's. In better weather, sunshine and all , it could beat the ZL1. Rain didn't screw the z28, the ZL1's speed did.

One hero lap in an unsactioned, non-comp z28 isn't worth the extra $10,000...

The main point being missed is the fact that the z28 couldn't run better in better conditions. Those who cry rain are likely those that are unimpressed.

All we know here at this point is the Z/28's fastest lap. Not the 2nd fastest, third fastest, etc.

Hero lap? Possibly.

But on that account, how do we know that the ZL1's 7:41.x wasn't that car's hero lap?


Norm

 

[BaylorCorvette]

The amateurs classes are the most important ones... Chevy cared enough to sanction the 1LE in SCCA T2. The z28 is far from a Pro car, no professional would suffer the rulebook to drive one. The regional and national levels are ground zero, where the S197 is not only common but, pretty successful as well. Besides, some of the SCCA and NASA amateur classes have drivers like Randy Pobst, John Buttermoore and Paul Brown mixed in with drivers like me... It comes down to a good factory offering as a base to develop your technique and, god willing, learn directly from these guys.

Why go through the trouble to eliminate it's stereo and pull weight to market the car when you know it can't be accepted.

Chevy can't build a 5th Gen Camaro that competes with the M3 and the Boss while meeting standards maintained in the rulebooks. It's impossible to ask the M3 and Boss drivers to further restrict those two cars.

This is where I have to disagree with you, and refer you back to what I posted last night. This Z/28 is going to be very limited (by production numbers and by price), the large majority of people that buy this Z/28 are never going to race it in a sanctioned event, and probably won't even care if they could or not. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but in general I believe this is going to be the reality of the Z/28 buyers.

I can't see buyers that are interested in Nurburgring lap times NOT be just as equally interested in the SCCA, Grand Am (now USCC, owned by IMSA) and NASA if not more.

It did a 7:37, on a track on the other side of the planet (that we care about) but I can't do shit at home (It doesn't bother me). If I was an unknowing buyer, my hopes would have been crushed at inspection when they told me my race car can't race :(

In theory this is an accurate assessment. However in reality I don't think it is like this, maybe 10 years ago it was. However these cars, standards and everything about the automotive industry is so much more international now. A large majority of automotive enthusiasts I know are extremely interested in the Nurburgring as it is the "gold standard" of a cars performance. These same people are hardly interested in SCCA, Grand Am, and other similar events. Maybe these are just out liars, I can't say. However this is what I know from personal experience.

In press releases and video segments, the z28 is race ready for competition... Asked the question directly and you get Porky Pigs version of the truth and a wild statement about making a special class...

And this is where I believe it is a marketing issue, people are interpreting that as SCCA or other sanctioned racing groups.

No sense in releasing times when a full cage is not OEM.

I was unaware that safety equipment that doesn't add power but adds weight makes a car faster?

I don't care about the few seconds of rain, the track was dry until the mini-carousel, the track was dry after the straight. Besides, I blame the lost time on the 10-14mph advantage the ZL1 had for about 20 seconds... The temps and DA were near ideal wth the exception of a 2 mile wide storm cloud.

We do not know what the track itself was like. Could have rained earlier, could have had dew, etc. The time is what it is, everything else is speculation.

All that said, the z28 has done over 30 laps at the Ring this year... With no rain and in the low/mid 60's. In better weather, sunshine and all , it could beat the ZL1. Rain didn't screw the z28, the ZL1's speed did.

One hero lap in an unsactioned, non-comp z28 isn't worth the extra $10,000...

The main point being missed is the fact that the z28 couldn't run better in better conditions. Those who cry rain are likely those that are unimpressed.

Maybe I missed it. Where was it said that the Z/28 only beat the ZL1 once?

There was a media day very recently with GM at Milford about the Z/28, several members of various forums were there, including one of the members in my local (Houston) Camaro Club.

"...The six seconds are not guess work or hypothetical. There is more in the car than people think..."

"...You can take those six seconds to the bank when the Z/28 is back at the Ring..."

"...No speculation. No Hype. No, I can't say any more..."

Do I believe this 100% ? No, I do not. However the reason I am posting this here is because you're posting and claiming that you've seen or heard X car run XYZ time at Y location. All any of this is to me, is people posting what they've heard from their mother's, uncle's, second cousin twice removed say.

Show me 'Ring numbers posted by manufacturers or other (credible) sources that prove or disprove a specific cars ability. As it pertains to any of the Mustang variants at the 'Ring, I'm sure they ran good times but I have yet to see numbers released by Ford, just these numbers you claim to know. You could very well be 110% correct, I cannot say. To me you're just a guy on the internet. Am I to believe that your word is gospel?

I believe it was mentioned earlier about how the Nurburgring doesn't matter, it's Europe and this is America, etc, etc. I have to disagree with this. Sure the 'Ring isn't the end all be all. HOWEVER, it is widely accepted (globally) that the 'Ring is the world standard / benchmark for a vehicle and its capability. It is the best thing we have to compare a bunch of different cars on a wide level. Sure we have a lot of great tracks here in the States, but how many non American cars are tested at said track? Not as many as the 'Ring. I honestly do not see how anyone can say and truely believe that by a domestic auto manufacturer going over to the 'Ring to test/tune/tweak/etc a car is a "bad" thing.

Contrary to what you may think, I'm not trying to defend the Z/28 here, as I'm not a huge fan of it. I'm just trying to put things into perspective and reality of those who are actually going to buy the Z/28.

 

[Overboost]

http://jalopnik.com/why-chevy-built-destroyed-and-finally-rebuilt-the-cama-1445804721

Interesting article.

 

[T-5 killer]

according to its top engineer, to "beat the shit out of anything Ford can put out on the road."

Made me LOL and I was thinking its just like Al O's statement that the ZL1 in simulations would beat the GT500.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

"But what does all of this actually mean? It means that the 2014 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 isn't aiming to take on the likes of the Ford Mustang, it's forever nemesis. The Z/28 wipes the floor with every current Mustang you can buy. Yes… even the Boss 302 Laguna Seca. Chevrolet ran a handful of Mustang and Camaro variants at its own Milford Proving Grounds Road Course, which mimics a number of turns from well known racetracks like the Nuburgring, and Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch. Their drivers were told not to hold back, and we'll hold them to their word on this one. Here are the results:

2013 Ford Mustang GT500: 1:59.97
2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca: 1:59.05
2014 Camaro 1LE: 1:58:85
2012 Camaro ZL1: 1:56.58

2014 Camaro Z/28: 1:53.71 "

The folks at GM tell us the unofficial fastest time set in the dry is in the 7:31 range. They can't come out and claim that, of course, because a 'Ring-Based gentleman's agreement says that it has to show up on video. So, the Chevy team plans to go back and get the time they feel the car deserves and is capable of hitting… with video proof.

Article

Now I'm not holding the Mustang(s) numbers as Gospel since it wasn't an independent test. Still interesting.

 

[Overboost]

I read a quote and feel it sums this up best: Ford built a track car that everyone could afford; GM built a track car as a dick measuring/rich guy status symbol. The car is definitely capable, but for $70k, you could buy a multitude of other products that could be used as daily drivers or dedicated track rats and have money left in your pocket.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I read a quote and feel it sums this up best: Ford built a track car that everyone could afford; GM built a track car as a dick measuring/rich guy status symbol. The car is definitely capable, but for $70k, you could buy a multitude of other products that could be used as daily drivers or dedicated track rats and have money left in your pocket.

Agreed. Which is why I wish the Z/28 was made around the same cost as the Boss.

Sent from my SAMSUNG Galaxy S III using telekinesis.

 

[thePill]

http://jalopnik.com/why-chevy-built-destroyed-and-finally-rebuilt-the-cama-1445804721

Interesting article.

Starting in the low $70's, maybe more!?!?!

How do we know it couldn't do better? Your sources? Right.

To discredit the rain just shows your insane agenda against the car and makes it quite laughable.

Not sure if you know this or not but, we have been pretty accurate on our times and speeds. I'm providing this information almost 2 months before the release of the video. The car didn't run any faster than then the 7:37... I'm not discrediting the rain, I'm just merely pointing out that the ZL1 carried a 10-14mph advantage for an extended period of time. I credit the speed of the ZL1 and not the 10 seconds of rain... The track was dry for the rest of the 12.93 miles... The sun was shining in the first 1/4 of the track. You guys are just really overplaying this rain. I told you this pig wouldn't come close to the Z06... That's insane.

I love how Al says they can find another 6 seconds with out the rain BUT, the whole time they were at the Ring, they never could... but most will just take his word for it since his track history of simulated results and claims never duplicated seems to be okay with you guys. I get it... they talk but never consider people might be intelligent enough to see though bullshit. Claiming the car can run 6 seconds faster but failing to provide a video after 3 months of lap testing is just boneheaded. If your simulations say one thing but the car says another, then it's incorrect. The ZL1 made over 40 laps during it's testing, they got the 7:41 on the last day...

Most of you guys had this car in the 7:20-7:30 range... That's laughable...

Being honest here... Between Al O's unfulfilled claims and simulated racing and my early, 3rd party reports, which disclosed specific info about the runs AND that info was accurate... Why would anyone trust Chevy after the multiple claims that haven't been backed up?

But so is the fact that it was overcome even once (and then by nearly 4 seconds). Perhaps that's even the more impressive accomplishment.

Sure, 200 feet makes it sound like the Z/28 is struggling a bit given the initially stated performance target, but nearly two football fields on average and 900+ feet at maximum suggests that the Z/28 has got the ZL1 handled with a pretty good margin to spare. You'll perhaps agree that it is misleading to look at the gap in terms of distance? I think if the ZL1 had ever brought in a better 'ring time than 7:41 we'd have heard about it before.

Norm

The ZL1 got it's 7:41 on the last day of runs, at the end of the day. They reported that they did 40+ laps with Aaron Link at the wheel. So no, I don't think the ZL1 can go any faster than it did. I also know that the z28 only beat the ZL1 in only one of the laps, over 30 had been done since April (probably 40+ like the ZL1).

The gap is one thing, the average speed is another. 105.3mph vs. 104.6mph... That is not what I was expecting. Sure, I was told repeatedly that the z28 had trouble reaching 160 but, the average speed would have old me the story. Unfortunately, you have to wait for lap times.

So, in my eyes, if the car consistently ran "slightly slower" than the ZL1 since April, and then managed to get a better time in September... I put them pretty close to even, especially with the average speed gap being so close. We heard from Jalopnik today, after their did a ride along at Milford. They said the z28 will start in the low $70's, maybe more... Jim on C5 also said if Chevy can get the car to the public below $65,000, then be thankful...

$70,000+ is way too steep.

The ZL1 also had trouble getting the 7:41...

I hope, and I say this because I actually hope, that Chevy isn't making adjustments during he last month to get a desired time.

This is where I have to disagree with you, and refer you back to what I posted last night. This Z/28 is going to be very limited (by production numbers and by price), the large majority of people that buy this Z/28 are never going to race it in a sanctioned event, and probably won't even care if they could or not. Of course there are going to be exceptions, but in general I believe this is going to be the reality of the Z/28 buyers.

If it wasn't that important, Chevy wouldn't be trying to create a special series for people to race the z28. Trust me, it is important to Chevy and I'm sure they are regretting not doing a sanctioned version. This z28 goes against most of what the original stood for.

A large majority of automotive enthusiasts I know are extremely interested in the Nurburgring as it is the "gold standard" of a cars performance. These same people are hardly interested in SCCA, Grand Am, and other similar events. Maybe these are just out liars, I can't say. However this is what I know from personal experience.

A large majority of the people you know probably don't race at all. Nurburgring is in Germany, the SCCA/NASA/USCC are all run on American tracks. If road racing interest someone, I mean REALLY interest you... They would be at the local tracks on every possible occasion.

I was unaware that safety equipment that doesn't add power but adds weight makes a car faster?

One of the first things you learn in Motorsport Chassis Fabrication and Engineering is the torsional rigidity each "point" provides. I am talking tens of thousands of pounds of resistance. This stiffness comes from the cage that is constructed at the chassis's weakest point (between the A and C pillar) won't allow the cars suspension geometry to change. Which means, you can actually camber/toe the wheels to be optimal for the run. No matter what anyone thinks about the 5th Gen, it is far from flex proof. A caged car and it's OEM version are worlds apart. Mark Ruess even pointed out how much of a difference the strut tower brace on th ZL1 helps chassis rigidity, just think how much a full cage provides.

Maybe I missed it. Where was it said that the Z/28 only beat the ZL1 once?

...and you will continue to miss it because Chevy won't publicly admit that EVER. It would make a $70,000+ z28 look like sh!t...

Do I believe this 100% ? No, I do not. However the reason I am posting this here is because you're posting and claiming that you've seen or heard X car run XYZ time at Y location. All any of this is to me, is people posting what they've heard from their mother's, uncle's, second cousin twice removed say.

Okay, if I was just saying general statements then yeah, call me out. However, I had times, speeds, number of laps, z28 track days, specifically talked about the 160mph, talked about how close the z28 and ZL1 would be... I'm not being general, I am being very specific. The only reason I get on here and screw with you guys is because I usually have the information weeks before you see the video.

Unless you actually believe I just made this stuff up then it just happened to come true...

Show me 'Ring numbers posted by manufacturers or other (credible) sources that prove or disprove a specific cars ability. As it pertains to any of the Mustang variants at the 'Ring, I'm sure they ran good times but I have yet to see numbers released by Ford, just these numbers you claim to know. You could very well be 110% correct, I cannot say. To me you're just a guy on the internet. Am I to believe that your word is gospel?

I really don't care if anyone believes it, Chevy does, that's why you have the z28 now. That's why the ZL1 was put on the back burner. The Jalopnik story today proves that the z28 was made to "Beat Ford"... But, I thought the ZL1 already did that? They inadvertantly admitted defeat with an even faster Camaro (well... marketed as such at least).

Ford hasn't even released a Ford GT official lap time, not Team RS lap times released and never any Mustang times. Do they have to?

If the GT500 can manage the ZL1 at Laguna Seca, it could very possibly be in for a world of hurt when speeds get a little higher. But then again, why release times from a car that has a cage, drilled rotors and a 5 point harness... It is false advertising...

 

[Fenderaddict2]

I'm sure the new Z/28 can kick my 2012 Boss 302's arse. But I've enjoyed that car for some time now, and it was relatively easy to get a hold of at the advertised price. Now I don't race it, if I did I would have bough a 302R, or 302S, so the fact that the Z/28 may not qualify for any sanctioned events isn't a strike against the car. It may be a cool car to own, it will perform where it should be allowed to, on the street and it will make a fine weekend track-day car....but...i can help but think at this point my Mustang or Camaro money (where ever you allegiance lies) might be better off held until the new platforms debut in 2015 and '16. This Camaro, as good as it may be in the long awaited Z/28 spec, seems a little too late to the party.

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