2014 Z28 Assault Thread.

[BaylorCorvette]

Yes it hit 161. The engine also revs to 7,000 rpms as per GM's statement.

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[thePill]

Taking the ZL1 back to Germany could be catastrophic, especially if it post a better time. It would completely destroy the Camaro pecking order (again) or, could make the ZL1 look bad. The ZL1 had a cage, I am going to bet the z28 did too. I recently have seen the z28 press release, they have pictures of it running laps with no 5 point harness and looks like no cage. But, the track looks like Milford in Michigan. The guide rails are different, there is no 18 foot chain link fence protecting onlookers (Milford doesn't get onlookers) and NO spray painted roads...

The C6 in 2010 at Milford...

The 2014 z28 in the same spot, up on the high bank.

Id bet these are press releases from Milford...


Racing... and why it matters. Initially, there was a lot of internal confusion about the z28's legality. Some Chevy officials would clearly market the car as "race ready", once they were called out (or found out) about the components, they admit that the car is not a legal option. They would like to create a series... which is nearly impossible.

If the z28 just had an displacement restricted LS7 then I could see them getting a waiver after some heavy fighting. But, the front tire width eliminates it, the disc brake diameter is too large for regulation (capped a 380mm), the R tires disqualify it from a lot of NASA events, SCCA prohibits the LS7 in Pro, Grand Am as well. The LS7 has a weight penalty in the Z06, the Camaro could fight that. A huge No No in racing is Carbon Ceramic Brakes... They are not permitted anywhere.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Racing... and why it matters. Initially, there was a lot of internal confusion about the z28's legality. Some Chevy officials would clearly market the car as "race ready", once they were called out (or found out) about the components, they admit that the car is not a legal option. They would like to create a series... which is nearly impossible.


If the z28 just had an displacement restricted LS7 then I could see them getting a waiver after some heavy fighting. But, the front tire width eliminates it, the disc brake diameter is too large for regulation (capped a 380mm), the R tires disqualify it from a lot of NASA events, SCCA prohibits the LS7 in Pro, Grand Am as well. The LS7 has a weight penalty in the Z06, the Camaro could fight that. A huge No No in racing is Carbon Ceramic Brakes... They are not permitted anywhere.

I see where you're coming from. However, GM can and probably will still market it as a "race ready" car, whether or not it has a class to race in. The problem is consumer knowledge, or lack thereof. MOST people just wont care, it's a Camaro, it has a 7.0L engine, it's fast, people say it's "race ready" that's enough, people will buy it regardless and I really do not think anyone can argue that. Just my opinion.

 

[thePill]

Only thing I have to say is that its looking like the Z/28 is limited to around 6k in top gear. Every other gear he was clearly over 6800. Why? Not sure but to say that the "top speed" is slower because yatta, yatta, yatta is a little false.

Plus, I think I saw 161 didnt I??

And....the Z/28 was ahead over 6 seconds at the bridge at the end of the straight. Certainly lost almost all its time on the 4 mile straight. (OF course its not 4 miles but close, lol)

With 3.91 gearing and the TR6060 MH6, your not going to get much faster than 160 in the z28 at the Ring.

Remember, a 6 second advantage is only 300 feet. The ZL1 only made up about 100 feet.

Here is a crude diagram I made for Norm, this is how close the race actually was... Same day results may have favored the ZL1...

Also keep in mind, the z28 ran for the last few months in all kinds of weather. This one run in the rain just happened to be the one... and of course, you need to market that "Less than Ideal" weather... The rest of the run was probably as good as it is ever going to get. 55-56, some sun, some overcast and a little rain.

Al says they feel they can beat the ZL1 by almost 6 seconds...

Lets rewind and review Al's previous simulations shall we?

Ummm... 11.9 in the quarter? Faster than the GT500 at the track? Faster at Milford? So, when Al starts speaking about his "telemetry data", I kinda just roll my eyes back into my skull. Needless to say, Team Camaro's projections are usually very generous in favor of the car they are working on.

Here is some basic reasoning when Chevy bench racing...

The z28 is 3 seconds faster than the ZL1 at Milford, the ZL1 is 3 seconds faster than the GT500 (I believe they are referencing the 2011 GT500 when they tested it at Milford, the '13 wasn't available until after the ZL1 was released). However, the GT500 won at Laguna by like 1.5 seconds...

Laguna is almost 2 miles long, divide that by 13.... 6.5 times 1.5 seconds is almost 10 seconds. That means the GT500 can Ring in 7:31.

Joking aside, I know that the '13 GT500 was capable of beating the ZL1's 7:41. I posted the times later that week (using the same people and resources I did for the z28 Ring info, 6 weeks ahead of the press release)... The time I was given was later semi-confirmed by SVT's Chief Engineer in a PistonHeads interview during the Frankfurt auto show.

Both GT500's running had equipment on them that would not make production... We coded named the red GT500 "Red", we now believe this was the R package GT500 that did not make it to production. It would have been the GT500KR most likely... But, the black 500 was running similar times the ZL1 did, the Camaro had a full cage and Mustang had roll bars or an 8 point.

 

[thePill]

I see where you're coming from. However, GM can and probably will still market it as a "race ready" car, whether or not it has a class to race in. The problem is consumer knowledge, or lack thereof. MOST people just wont care, it's a Camaro, it has a 7.0L engine, it's fast, people say it's "race ready" that's enough, people will buy it regardless and I really do not think anyone can argue that. Just my opinion.

I agree but, that is where a company needs to put a stop to things like that. Marketing is one thing, withholding critical information from a customer that could drastically alter the marketing plan is garbage. Chevy is running ZL1's in SCCA... No LSA, No MRC, No OEM anything... Ford's Boss is mostly OEM in the same class... It's hard to beat both Ford and the rulebook.

Should they market the z28 as 3.8 seconds faster (they say 4 to 6 seconds) or should they market it as .7mph faster and 200 feet ahead? That is decent marketing... Kinda slime ball but, that is the way it is...

But, marketing a race car that's race/track ready to race, be competitive and win but not letting customers know "You aren't allowed to race", until some internet psycho tells Motor Trend... and putting Al O. on the spot on Wide Open Throttle is crap.

Most people will tell you right away, most won't buy a z28 to race. That's simply because real drivers know better...

 

[thePill]

Again, here is the press release from today... They go back to the racing shit again and never tell the "amateurs" it's not permitted...

DETROIT – Chevrolet today revealed a video [see below] of the all-new, 2014 Camaro Z/28 lapping Germany’s challenging Nürburgring road course in 7:37.40, a time comparable with some of the world’s most prestigious sports cars.

The Z/28’s lap is four seconds faster than the Camaro ZL1, and beats published times for the Porsche 911 Carrera S and the Lamborghini Murcielago LP640. The Z/28’s lap was completed on less-than-ideal conditions, with damp pavement and pouring rain near the end of the run.

"One of the challenges of testing at the 'Ring is that the track is so long that conditions can change radically in a single lap," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "Adam Dean, the development driver for Z/28, did a heroic job driving in deteriorating conditions. Based on telemetry data from our test sessions, we know the Z/28 can be as much as six seconds faster on a dry track."

In terms of lap times, the Z/28’s improved speed came from three areas:

• Increased grip: The Z/28 is capable of 1.08 g in cornering acceleration, due to comprehensive chassis revisions
• Increased stopping power: The Z/28 features Brembo carbon-ceramic brakes capable of 1.5 g in deceleration, and consistent brake feel lap after lap
• Reduced curb weight: The naturally aspirated Z/28 weighs 300 pounds less than the supercharged Camaro ZL1, with changes ranging from lightweight wheels to thinner rear-window glass.

The heart of the Z/28 is the 7.0L LS7 engine. The LS7 uses lightweight, racing-proven, high-performance components, such as titanium intake valves and connecting rods, CNC-ported aluminum cylinder heads and a forged-steel crankshaft to help produce an SAE-certified 505 horsepower (376 kW) and 481 lb-ft of torque (652 Nm). Air-conditioning is available, but only as an option.

A close-ratio six-speed manual transmission is the only transmission offered and power is distributed to the rear wheels via a limited-slip differential featuring a helical gear set, rather than traditional clutch packs. The new design enables the driver to apply more power and get through corners faster, by making the most of the capability of individual-wheel antilock brake function during corner entry braking, mid-corner speed and corner-exit traction.

The team spent a week at the Nürburgring as part of the Z/28's performance-validation regimen, accumulating a total of 10 hours and nearly 1,000 miles on the track. Each lap took less than eight minutes to complete, despite having to overtake slower traffic at times. These hours are part of the grueling 24-Hour Test, which simulates a full year's worth of track use of track days or amateur-level competition at the hands of an owner.

“Passing the 24-Hour Test is a requirement for all cars we call 'track capable,’” said Wayne McConnell, director of global vehicle performance. "The test pushes the car at 10/10ths on the track for a total of 24 hours. During the test the only mechanical changes allowed are replacing the brakes and tires.”

The 24-Hour Test is broken into a number of segments over the course of several days – and even at different tracks – to evaluate performance in precisely measured and carefully monitored increments. Crucially, each valid test lap must be run within 2 percent of a target lap speed to count toward the 24-hour total.

The 24-Hour Test was first used in the early 1990s for the fourth-generation Corvette. Back then, the 300-horsepower Corvette was Chevrolet’s most powerful vehicle, and the 24-Hour Test measured 15 channels of data. Today, the 2014 Camaro LS offers a 323-horsepower V-6, while the Camaro Z/28’s racing-proven LS7 7.0L small-block V-8 delivers 505 horsepower, and the 24-Hour Test measures 130 channels of data.

“Our cars' performance and capability have advanced tremendously in the past 20 years, which required us to continually improve the parameters of the 24-Hour Test," said McConnell.

"Today’s test pushes the car harder than the vast majority of customers ever will. As a result, when we call a car ‘track capable’ we are confident that it will perform reliably and consistently for our customers.”

"Track Capable" is a much better term... For some reason, Al keeps flashing back to the racing and competition... You can't Al...

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Again, here is the press release from today... They go back to the racing shit again and never tell the "amateurs" it's not permitted...


"Track Capable" is a much better term... For some reason, Al keeps flashing back to the racing and competition... You can't Al...

But are "amateurs" going to be buying a Z/28? Not likely.

I think you're over estimating how many people who are in the market for a Z/28 really care about SCCA and all the other racing organizations. Most Z/28 owners that ever race the car will do it as a hobby a couple times a year. However if this car wasn't limited production and was cheaper, then things would probably be different.

Is the marketing of the car a little shady? I suppose so. I don't support it but if you're going to drop $70k on a car to race it in a sanctioned race event, then I would hope you know the rules.

 

[bballr4567]

So you just magically pull the GT500 numbers out of the air because of its performance at a different track?? Come on now.

I love how you stick to the "facts" of the Camaro but just like to fudge the numbers on the no times of the GT500. Oh well, I guess I expected it.

Not to mention how you keep doing a literal direct comparison of the Z/28 run and the ZL1 when you supposedly know what water does to a track.


Also, show me where the ZL1 had a full cage. I believe that GM runs them with 8 points for the faster cars and 4 points for the rest. Z/28 video sure didnt have a full cage and neither did the ZL1.

 

[Boss2013]

The Ford GT ran a 7:37.44?

This list shows it ran a 7:40.60
http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

7:40.60 here as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nürburgring_Nordschleife_lap_times

And this one has it listed at 7:52.00
http://nurburgringlaptimes.com/lap-times/lap-times-top-100/

Heh, heh! Just looking to keep the Camaro5 trolls on their toes! Really though, I meant to say 3 seconds, not .03. In the end, despite all the engineering and hi-tech hardware, the z/28 will still be just a Camaro. Pass.

On a side note, the family and I spent some time in Orlando last week, and took in Epcot on Monday. We had been before, but prior to the revamping of the GM-sponsored Test Track attraction. I know GM has little to do with the ride, but if they are going to put their name on it, you would hope it would spend more time actually running versus being broken down. After several delays and two hours in line, we finally got to ride. Not what I would consider good press for something that has GM stamped all over it, but pretty accurate based on my own experience with the GM cars I've owned regarding their reliability.

 

[thePill]

But are "amateurs" going to be buying a Z/28? Not likely.

I think you're over estimating how many people who are in the market for a Z/28 really care about SCCA and all the other racing organizations. Most Z/28 owners that ever race the car will do it as a hobby a couple times a year. However if this car wasn't limited production and was cheaper, then things would probably be different.

Is the marketing of the car a little shady? I suppose so. I don't support it but if you're going to drop $70k on a car to race it in a sanctioned race event, then I would hope you know the rules.

The amateurs classes are the most important ones... Chevy cared enough to sanction the 1LE in SCCA T2. The z28 is far from a Pro car, no professional would suffer the rulebook to drive one. The regional and national levels are ground zero, where the S197 is not only common but, pretty successful as well. Besides, some of the SCCA and NASA amateur classes have drivers like Randy Pobst, John Buttermoore and Paul Brown mixed in with drivers like me... It comes down to a good factory offering as a base to develop your technique and, god willing, learn directly from these guys.

Why go through the trouble to eliminate it's stereo and pull weight to market the car when you know it can't be accepted.

Chevy can't build a 5th Gen Camaro that competes with the M3 and the Boss while meeting standards maintained in the rulebooks. It's impossible to ask the M3 and Boss drivers to further restrict those two cars.

If you are buying a z28 based on Ring times, I would be underwhelmed. I can't see buyers that are interested in Nurburgring lap times NOT be just as equally interested in the SCCA, Grand Am (now USCC, owned by IMSA) and NASA if not more.

It did a 7:37, on a track on the other side of the planet (that we care about) but I can't do shit at home (It doesn't bother me). If I was an unknowing buyer, my hopes would have been crushed at inspection when they told me my race car can't race :(

But I spent $70k and Chevy said I could, over and over again... It even did one lap around Nurburgring at 7:37 last year. :shrug:

Professionals didn't become professional by being idiots, they can see through a z28. Some amateurs don't know the rules, especially when starting out. Some guys miss stuff when they change rides that was okay before. It has always been clearly stated when factory "race cars" are produced, what classes it is eligible for. Ford does this almost every year on every new Mustang. If they don't say it, then it isn't legal (see GT500). Chevy on the other hand pretty much rides this assumption though out the entire models life when clearly things are not going to be permitted.

In press releases and video segments, the z28 is race ready for competition... Asked the question directly and you get Porky Pigs version of the truth and a wild statement about making a special class...


...special class alright...

 

[thePill]

So you just magically pull the GT500 numbers out of the air because of its performance at a different track?? Come on now.

I love how you stick to the "facts" of the Camaro but just like to fudge the numbers on the no times of the GT500. Oh well, I guess I expected it.

Not to mention how you keep doing a literal direct comparison of the Z/28 run and the ZL1 when you supposedly know what water does to a track.


Also, show me where the ZL1 had a full cage. I believe that GM runs them with 8 points for the faster cars and 4 points for the rest. Z/28 video sure didnt have a full cage and neither did the ZL1.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extras/test-drives/2012-chevrolet-camaro-zl1/#item=203331
Jay Leno and Mark test drive the actual Ring ZL1, look at the interior.... I'm willing to bet the z28 does too.

the Automatic (no time released)

The actual manual that did the 741.

Looks caged to me...

That is a full cage...

I think you missed my sarcasm in my GT500 statement, you can't just simulate shit together like Al O. does... Obviously, the GT500 isn't 3 seconds slower than the ZL1, sometimes, it's actually faster. It was at Laguna and that's a short track.

Edit: The GT500's at Nurburgring were caged too, the red one was heavily caged, the black one had a 6 or 8. The spotters that informed me about the z28 6 weeks ago are the same ones I met with in June to see the '13 GT500. They collected times from the GT500 the same way they did for the z28 and ZL1...

Ford probably didn't want to cram fully caged marketing bullshit down our throats because it just looks bad... The CTSV's run didn't have a cage, it ran a 7:58 or something, that's probably closer to what an OEM ZL1 could do on a good run.

The z28 in the press release is in Milford, he is not driving around in a lap belt with only airbags to protect him...

 

[bballr4567]

Looks like an 8 or 10 point, right?

 

[thePill]

Looks like an 8 or 10 point, right?

No, it boxes the roof and has a cross brace in the rear. It's full tilt... You can see it in the video.

I don't want to hear the rain excuse... It wasn't an issue with the GT500's Lightning Lap, nor with the '12 Boss 302's Lightning Lap.

I hardly call the z28's run "pouring rain", about 10 seconds of drizzle at the end of the lap. It was over by the end of the straight and more than likely only rained on the 3km straight. What about all the other runs they did? I suppose it rained even harder those days... They had great weather, they just couldn't do it without pulling some strings... The day it ran with the C7 was perfect 65 and sunny... No record lap there... It was about 3 seconds behind according to my guys.

Welcome to real road racing Camaro fans!

 

[Boss2013]

Welcome to real road racing Camaro fans!

Too bad most of the Camaro folks don't care for reality and prefer to suck up every bit of hype GM marketing can come up with.

 

[thePill]

As it stands, this particular '13 mule in a '12's body was faster than both the 2012 ZL1 and 2014 z28's Nurburgring times. This is unofficial of course but data was collected the same way it we did it for the '12 ZL1 (we were 4 seconds off) and '14 z28 (4 seconds off again). It was widely accepted that Ford would never release the numbers of the mules because they were not even sporting the '13 changes.

We projected a 7:35 from Big Red... a 7:45 from the other... I believe Red was in fact the R package (or KR) GT500. The 7:45 would have been the SVT/TP one.

Later that year, Jamaal let slip "Deep in the Sevens" during a Pistonhead interview... I can post a link if you want to read it...

Edit: Here is the link, It was in LA, not Frankfurt, sorry... http://www.pistonheads.com/news/24719.htm

It's still a shock to hear Americans getting all serious about 'ring laptimes but even Hameedi is getting stuck in, not least after record breaking runs by the Viper and serious hot laps in the Camaro ZL1. So, how fast? "Deep in the sevens" is Hameedi's slightly cryptic reply, the 200mph-plus top speed meanwhile a triumph for American muscle versus aerodynamics.

Here is my original post from June that year.

Posted 12 June 2011 - 05:27 AM
Long time reader and first time poster. I am currently stationed in Kaiserslauthern, Germany and was informed on Tuesday that there was a new GT500 testing at Nurburgring. I went up on Wednesday and Thursday to check it out. There were quite a few club members there and they were clocking both cars throughout the week. You could not get near the vehicles (not that I would try) and no questions were answered. It rained Monday, Tuesday and some on Wednesday and was cool and clear the rest of the week (about 65-72). I could not hear a supercharger or a turbo but I was not very close to the actual track and exhaust was pretty decent (and tire noise). Club members here clocked the red GT500 around a best of 7:30 and the black one around 7:40. There were two passengers most of the time with the occasional driver only run. The cars would do 2-3 laps of 8 minute laps and then move to a 7:XX lap so it seems heat soak was being looked at as well. It was said that Karl Gieger was there personally but I don't know if anybody from the US has heard of him. The traffic was pretty low when I went up on Wednesday and Thursday and I was told that the it was that way pretty much all week. Both cars would do 2-3 laps, sometimes running together, sometimes one at a time and then they would disappear for 30 minutes. There were a series of 10 minute laps (which is slow) and as I said, multiple time keepers clocked the cars mid 7 minutes at their best under very good weather and traffic. This is all I know, I have iPhone video of some turns but it really sucks and the audio was crappy so I didn't keep them, the group I was in picked a location way too far from the track IMO. We were told that there would be photos and video online later this month so I didn't care about the video. I was surprised when I checked the internet late Thursday night and found it posted already.

Anyway, I thought the lap times would be interesting at least, I am trying to circulate this info as much as possible. I was also told that a local guy ran his Boss 302 LS at a 7:45-7:49 which is right on par with the BMW M3 GTS and the Audi R8 V10 but this, along with everything else I was told is all hearsay. I did however, confirm a 7:35 from the red GT500 and a 7:43 from the black car via a club members stop watch so... I can see a 7:30 and a 7:40 from these cars. There was speculation about the Red GT500 being a Nurburgring edition and the other being a future production GT500 SVTPP. There was speculation that maybe one was a manual and one was an auto and that one was a 2012 and the red one was a 2013.... either way, they were both very fast and ran most of the day for most of the week...

Hope this helps...

http://www.teamshelby.com/forums/in...0-going-to-get-another-cooling-upgrade/page-2

Secretly, this is why Camaro Ring times amuse me... Chevy knows what that mule ran, they were there and did the ZR1 record lap that same booking... Chevy knows... Oh yes... But again, why release times when the cars have all that stiffness from a full cage... It's a completely different car then.

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