Upgrade FMIC, or add WMI, without changing the tune on the car?

Juben said:

The question everyone should be asking is do you have any plans beyond what you've told us? That would help guide my opinion on what would be most beneficial to you. In most cases, I'd always say to do an intercooler as a first mod for a variety of reasons, but you've posed a very interesting question here.

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But again, if you're not worried about balls-out performance all of the time and have lower quality/octane gas in your area, the WMI might offer some attractive benefits.

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Interesting question about my plans; it depend on a few things.

First, I do drive the car regularly, and it is just plain fun to drive on the street. I don't want to ruin that. I have driven the GT (yes, it's faster and sounds better), but based on my driving habits I happen to really enjoy the EBM as a daily driver.

Second, I have been working a lot on my track driving this year and doing very well. My local track (AMP) is a short and very technical road course, so carrying speed in turns in important. At my track, with just the FP tune and square stance 275 tires I am competitive with the stock GTs (and having a blast). So, for 2018 I plan to work on improving the suspension, and I only want to add just a little hp and also minimize heat soak. The car feels a little underpowered on the exit of just one turn. That said, I am not yet able to drive the car to its current limits, so skill development is more critical than hp at this stage.

I do expect to eventually make a bigger improvement in hp (my sense is that just 50 more hp would be enough to keep me happy at the track for a very long time). I really like the spool characteristics of the small dual scroll turbo on the street (as it's my daily diver), so a big turbo upgrade is probably not ideal. Also, I think those same spool characteristics are also pretty good for my local track because it's a small and technical road course. So, I have in mind either a Vargas stage 1, or a smaller duel scroll upgrade. But, I have plenty to learn, so this not urgent and things could change as I learn more.

I am now leaning towards the FMIC upgrade, but I wonder if WMI would achieve the same thing and would be useful in mitigating the octane limitation that will hit me if and when I do decide to upgrade the turbo.

J.P.B. said:

Interesting question about my plans; it depend on a few things.

First, I do drive the car regularly, and it is just plain fun to drive on the street. I don't want to ruin that. I have driven the GT (yes, it's faster and sounds better), but based on my driving habits I happen to really enjoy the EBM as a daily driver.

Second, I have been working a lot on my track driving this year and doing very well. My local track (AMP) is a short and very technical road course, so carrying speed in turns in important. At my track, with just the FP tune and square stance 275 tires I am competitive with the stock GTs (and having a blast). So, for 2018 I plan to work on improving the suspension, and I only want to add just a little hp and also minimize heat soak. The car feels a little underpowered on the exit of just one turn. That said, I am not yet able to drive the car to its current limits, so skill development is more critical than hp at this stage.

I do expect to eventually make a bigger improvement in hp (my sense is that just 50 more hp would be enough to keep me happy at the track for a very long time). I really like the spool characteristics of the small dual scroll turbo on the street (as it's my daily diver), so a big turbo upgrade is probably not ideal. Also, I think those same spool characteristics are also pretty good for my local track because it's a small and technical road course. So, I have in mind either a Vargas stage 1, or a smaller duel scroll upgrade. But, I have plenty to learn, so this not urgent and things could change as I learn more.

I am now leaning towards the FMIC upgrade, but I wonder if WMI would achieve the same thing and would be useful in mitigating the octane limitation that will hit me if and when I do decide to upgrade the turbo.

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Sound like you want more consistency in your build and the Intercooler will bring that. I feel like we have similar goals. A capable daily sports car. I’ll try not to make the ecoboost more than it is in terms of what is does great which is midrange grunt for fun in traffic and with a good suspension a Blast. I️ have Springs/Shocks/Sways with endlinks/lower K brace and the car handles Great and can cruise comfortably in 6gear on long trips and ready to pounce with a downshift.

The way my car runs now after the intercooler seems as if I’ve been harming it all this time when you factor in the timing retarding from the Miami Heat, no winters here. I’m now feeling comfortable with a ford tune. May get this next.

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J.P.B. said:

Interesting question about my plans; it depend on a few things.

First, I do drive the car regularly, and it is just plain fun to drive on the street. I don't want to ruin that. I have driven the GT (yes, it's faster and sounds better), but based on my driving habits I happen to really enjoy the EBM as a daily driver.

Second, I have been working a lot on my track driving this year and doing very well. My local track (AMP) is a short and very technical road course, so carrying speed in turns in important. At my track, with just the FP tune and square stance 275 tires I am competitive with the stock GTs (and having a blast). So, for 2018 I plan to work on improving the suspension, and I only want to add just a little hp and also minimize heat soak. The car feels a little underpowered on the exit of just one turn. That said, I am not yet able to drive the car to its current limits, so skill development is more critical than hp at this stage.

I do expect to eventually make a bigger improvement in hp (my sense is that just 50 more hp would be enough to keep me happy at the track for a very long time). I really like the spool characteristics of the small dual scroll turbo on the street (as it's my daily diver), so a big turbo upgrade is probably not ideal. Also, I think those same spool characteristics are also pretty good for my local track because it's a small and technical road course. So, I have in mind either a Vargas stage 1, or a smaller duel scroll upgrade. But, I have plenty to learn, so this not urgent and things could change as I learn more.

I am now leaning towards the FMIC upgrade, but I wonder if WMI would achieve the same thing and would be useful in mitigating the octane limitation that will hit me if and when I do decide to upgrade the turbo.

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If octane is worrying, get WMI. If you want to keep temps down, get WI. You don't have to get water meth, you can just get water injection as well. I would eventually suggest both though. Either WMI, WI, or E85.

Manders Mustang said:

the power bit. Fuck knows i aint a tuner. I guess it just means you can push things a bit up as it's cooler and not soaking.

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That's exactly my point. We are a tuning shop. But for some reason everyone on the forums seems to think they are a tuner or knows whats required on a car when really they are just repeating things they read from other forum members who also don't know! Thus, the intercooler does not need to be tuned in order to receive all of its benefits.

Phil@JDM said:

That's exactly my point. We are a tuning shop. But for some reason everyone on the forums seems to think they are a tuner or knows whats required on a car when really they are just repeating things they read from other forum members who also don't know! Thus, the intercooler does not need to be tuned in order to receive all of its benefits.

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Does an intercooler with a tune allow more than a car with the standard ic and a tune?

Manders Mustang said:

Does an intercooler with a tune allow more than a car with the standard ic and a tune?

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No we do not change any parameters in the tune. We have had a few in house ecoboosts that we have tuned and worked on. They came back after running our tune and bolt ons for an intercooler install and nothing was needed to be updated in the tune. The only thing that might need adjusting is if you remove the grille shutters when installing a new intercooler we turn off the module so that you dont throw a CEL, thats it.

Here's an article on the back-to-back testing of the Garrett FMIC upgrade vs. stock along with install pics, so it's what you can expect in going to FMIC. The Garrett upgrade is CARB approved too.

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...ded-Intercooler-for-the-EcoBoost-Mustang.aspx

Wow, the misinformation in this thread is strong!!! So many people love to talk about things they have ZERO experience with. /SMH

I have added both FMIC and WMI to my 1.8t GTI and I can tell you FIRST HAND the benefits of both, without a tune. The similarities between the GTI and an EcoBoost are significant for this to apply to you. They both use Bosch/Motronic ECUs and the engines are similar in size and boost characteristics.

FMIC: you will get a minor noticeable improvement here, but it will not be much. After one or two pulls, you will still heat soak. Tuning for this will not make much difference if any at all. The FMIC is a passive device that only aids in cooling the air, nothing a tune can really do to help or hurt it. You 'may' notice a slight lag in boost, since the turbo now has to fill more volume to achieve your boost levels, but again, we're talking so minuscule you may not even notice. IMO, FMICs are supporting mods, not really big game changers themselves. This is something you definitely want to do, eventually, but it's not one of the first mods I would do. The cost/benefit is small.

WMI: this will make a major improvement on intake temps and octane. You will 'feel' how much smoother and stronger your engine runs while spraying. If you can log your IATs, you will notice a HUGE drop in intake temps on every pull. Granted, you will still heat soak after a few good pulls, but it will not be anywhere close to the amount of heat soak you get with only a FMIC. The air will always be cooler than ambient temps.

Now, if you tune for WMI, you will get even more benefit from it. Namely, you can increase boost and timing to get a good 40-50whp out of it, if not more. Without tuning, you can expect closer to 20whp increase (this all depends on your current tune and how much timing the car has to pull before you add WMI). These are average figures, so don't quote me on it. Every engine/build is different, but those are fairly consistent numbers for what you can expect with this size engine.

Here's a video showing the before/after effects of adding WMI to my GTI, all without changing the tune:

[ame]

How big is your tank? If it's just a gallon, you're going to hate it. If you're in boost a lot, you will go through a gallon tank in about 5-10 pulls, depending on how long you stay in WOT. I would have to refill mine after about an hour or so of fun driving. So I upgraded to a 7 gallon tank.

After a while I also just started running 100% water through mine, since I didn't want to spend the $$ on Methanol every week. That's one benefit to not tuning for it, you can run just water and get the cooling benefits without the octane increase.

SiMuL said:

FMIC: you will get a minor noticeable improvement here, but it will not be much. After one or two pulls, you will still heat soak. Tuning for this will not make much difference if any at all. The FMIC is a passive device that only aids in cooling the air, nothing a tune can really do to help or hurt it. You 'may' notice a slight lag in boost, since the turbo now has to fill more volume to achieve your boost levels, but again, we're talking so minuscule you may not even notice. IMO, FMICs are supporting mods, not really big game changers themselves. This is something you definitely want to do, eventually, but it's not one of the first mods I would do. The cost/benefit is small.

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This is absolutely incorrect with the ecoboost in terms of what you think the benefits are. The benefits of an aftermarket FMIC on these cars are huge. Before, you heatsoak after 1-2 pulls. After, good luck heat soaking on the street, even with a stage 1. The factory FMIC is garbage and meant for cost efficiency. I have the MAP street IC and noticed a huge difference. The car runs healthier in hot weather it doesnt bog like before, it pulls a little harder up top, and it doesnt heat soak unless its really hot outside, but thats acceptable. All without a tune, I just have the FP tune, which doesnt tune for a FMIC.

lizardrko said:

This is absolutely incorrect with the ecoboost in terms of what you think the benefits are. The benefits of an aftermarket FMIC on these cars are huge. Before, you heatsoak after 1-2 pulls. After, good luck heat soaking on the street, even with a stage 1. The factory FMIC is garbage and meant for cost efficiency. I have the MAP street IC and noticed a huge difference. The car runs healthier in hot weather it doesnt bog like before, it pulls a little harder up top, and it doesnt heat soak unless its really hot outside, but thats acceptable. All without a tune, I just have the FP tune, which doesnt tune for a FMIC.

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Great info to know, thank you!! I admit, I have no experience with EcoBoost engines. My main concern, and the reason I replied, was with the lack of real world experience from most of the people replying, yet they seemed so hell bent on saying WMI would not be worth the investment, when I still feel, in light of your added information, that it's the better of the two "no-tune" mods.

However, now at least, we know it's definitely good to do this as one of your earlier/easier mods.

Especially with a tune -- your turbo is demanding more charged air.

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SiMuL said:

Great info to know, thank you!! I admit, I have no experience with EcoBoost engines. My main concern, and the reason I replied, was with the lack of real world experience from most of the people replying, yet they seemed so hell bent on saying WMI would not be worth the investment, when I still feel, in light of your added information, that it's the better of the two "no-tune" mods.

However, now at least, we know it's definitely good to do this as one of your earlier/easier mods.

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It's not necessarily that people don't have any experience, it's the fact you added another degree of complexity to the vehicle. What if the bottle runs out? Yes, most have a failsafe built in. But failsafe or not, you are still taking an added risk. I'm not against WMI or WI, but it isn't exactly cheap. The cheaper option in the long run is to get the intercooler now and save up for an e85 auxiliary system.

Edit: "In my opinion."

Ebm said:

It's not necessarily that people don't have any experience, it's the fact you added another degree of complexity to the vehicle. What if the bottle runs out? Yes, most have a failsafe built in. But failsafe or not, you are still taking an added risk. I'm not against WMI or WI, but it isn't exactly cheap. The cheaper option in the long run is to get the intercooler now and save up for an e85 auxiliary system.

Edit: "In my opinion."

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Maybe the others missed the critical part of his question where he said NO TUNE, too, then. Your engine will not blow up because you ran out of meth on a stock tune. It's not adding more timing than the stock tune. It's simply not pulling as much timing due to the colder intake temps and higher octane.

The ECU is still commanding the same thing it was prior to adding WMI, except now it gets to use it's full potential, which is where the increased power comes from when adding WMI without a tune.

So, if you run out of juice, your engine simply starts pulling some timing like it did prior to spraying.

Your argument about cost, again keeping a "no tune" idea in mind, is also incorrect. Snow Performance stage 1 costs $280 and stage 2 costs $500. Add $200-$300 give or take for install and you're spending $800 for the stage 2 installed.

A quality FMIC will cost you anywhere from $500-$1000 plus install, so you're looking at double if not more.

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SiMuL said:

Maybe the others missed the critical part of his question where he said NO TUNE, too, then. Your engine will not blow up because you ran out of meth on a stock tune. It's not adding more timing than the stock tune. It's simply not pulling as much timing due to the colder intake temps and higher octane.

The ECU is still commanding the same thing it was prior to adding WMI, except now it gets to use it's full potential, which is where the increased power comes from when adding WMI without a tune.

So, if you run out of juice, your engine simply starts pulling some timing like it did prior to spraying.

Your argument about cost, again keeping a "no tune" idea in mind, is also incorrect. Snow Performance stage 1 costs $280 and stage 2 costs $500. Add $200-$300 give or take for install and you're spending $800 for the stage 2 installed.

A quality FMIC will cost you anywhere from $500-$1000 plus install, so you're looking at double if not more.

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Wrong

You forgot the recurring cost of fluids. I think it's like $35 for 4 gallons. Not that expensive, but it adds up over time. So with that in mind, the FMIC will eventually be cheaper.

First and foremost, let me apologize for sounding confrontational or negative in anyway with my previous replies. I get excited and sometimes fail to remember that I'm speaking to other wonderful people that care about the same things I do.

With that said, I definitely won't argue your point and almost edited my post to include it. However, in my opinion, I still feel the benefits of running WMI is worth the extra cost in the long run. It's safer for the engine, it adds more power, and if you don't want to keep spending money on Methanol, you can just run water and still get lower IATs than with an FMIC. If you don't tune for it, of course.