Lund - car pulling timing (Seattle area 91 octane). Normal?

[valentinoamoro]

Hey guys,
I got a Lund tune and after the data log John mentioned I was getting some knock activity. Recommended an octane booster and data log again to eliminate false knock etc.

After I did that and sent the file, he mentioned that its still doing it - but much better than before, specifically, pulling less than a degree so seeing 'commanded spark values'. His theory is the fuel in the Seattle area (91 octane) is not the greatest. Mentioned car is totally fine to drive and suggested octane booster on race days so timing it not pulled.

Driving around I dont hear pinging/marbles in engine sound, at high rpm its impossible to say. Cylinder head temps have stayed within 185-195 like pre-tune days. I dont spend a ton of time above 5000 anyway and short jaunts to redline dont seem to change the oil or cylinder head temps. Oil in catch can is minimal. Idle is good.

Wanted a second opinion here -
>Should I be OK with this? IE, is pulling timing in 91 octane gas normal? Lund mention the tune he provides adjust strategies depending on octane, it doesnt need customization for 91 octane. I assume it does rely on the knock sensor and adjusts timing to a more aggressive profile depending on the data coming in?
>Local drivers - I fuel at the local Arco near me. Have folks had better luck with others or is that all marketing nonsense?
> I can also ask my local shop (Brads Custom) to make adjustments as needed. Is it needed and if so, what parameters could they adjust (ie, pull back timing?).
>Given 91 octane, is the car pulling timing back to the point where the tune is not really going to help me unless I boost octane? It feels more responsive, but so much of that could be placebo. The car is damn fast regardless and always has been. Still, had the mod itch. Always have. :-)

Cheers

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[markmurfie]

There is nothing wrong with Lund's calibration. You just need to make the best of it with.

By purchasing a tune its obvious you are looking for the more performance from your car. Octane is a very important part of the performance of your engine, arguably the most important.
Your goal should be to find the gas station that sells the best quality gas near you. They are not all equal, even if they all say 91. setup your ngauge or SCT to watch a couple parameters. Load and knock. spark advance if you really want to see the final value. Cruising at 50-60mph, with RPMS between 1500-2000, at part throttle you should try to maintain as close to a constant .5-.6 engine load and watch where your knock value goes. Fill up at different places until you find which one makes the sensor the happiest under these same conditions. many stations with top tier ratings will be very close to each other, but there usually is one or two that stand out from the rest on the good side. Its always best to run the tanks down as much as possible between fills during your test. you can do this over the course of a few weeks just with normal driving and filling up at different stations in your area. This is also a good way to preserve the safety of your engine, you get bad gas, you will know before even going WOT, just cruise until your next fill up. Bad tanks happen every now and again. Its possible you don't find any good gas in your area, in that case go with an octane booster.
The second thing thats often over looked, that you should do, is regularly maintain your car. Performance comes with cost. Sure a set of spark plugs can easily last 75k+ miles, but changing them every 10k will ensure the performance of your engine is near its peak.

 

[Genxer]

Performance comes with cost. Sure a set of spark plugs can easily last 75k+ miles, but changing them every 10k will ensure the performance of your engine is near its peak.

Really... 10k miles for set of spark plugs??

 

[AZ18yote]

Hey guys,
I got a Lund tune and after the data log John mentioned I was getting some knock activity. Recommended an octane booster and data log again to eliminate false knock etc.

After I did that and sent the file, he mentioned that its still doing it - but much better than before, specifically, pulling less than a degree so seeing 'commanded spark values'. His theory is the fuel in the Seattle area (91 octane) is not the greatest. Mentioned car is totally fine to drive and suggested octane booster on race days so timing it not pulled.

Driving around I dont hear pinging/marbles in engine sound, at high rpm its impossible to say. Cylinder head temps have stayed within 185-195 like pre-tune days. I dont spend a ton of time above 5000 anyway and short jaunts to redline dont seem to change the oil or cylinder head temps. Oil in catch can is minimal. Idle is good.

Wanted a second opinion here -
>Should I be OK with this? IE, is pulling timing in 91 octane gas normal? Lund mention the tune he provides adjust strategies depending on octane, it doesnt need customization for 91 octane. I assume it does rely on the knock sensor and adjusts timing to a more aggressive profile depending on the data coming in?
>Local drivers - I fuel at the local Arco near me. Have folks had better luck with others or is that all marketing nonsense?
> I can also ask my local shop (Brads Custom) to make adjustments as needed. Is it needed and if so, what parameters could they adjust (ie, pull back timing?).
>Given 91 octane, is the car pulling timing back to the point where the tune is not really going to help me unless I boost octane? It feels more responsive, but so much of that could be placebo. The car is damn fast regardless and always has been. Still, had the mod itch. Always have. :-)

Cheers

Are you only seeing knock in the logs at WOT or at cruising speeds and light acceleration too? If at other times than WOT it's possible it's not false.

But as others suggested try testing other fuel sources, doing KAM resets in between.

 

[ENPhoto]

In our cars, we have 28 mapped points for timing tables for "Borderline" and 28 mapped points for timing tables for "MBT"

The car, based on when it is in each table (or a percentage of each table), will run off the Borderline maps and infer a bunch of other information, to inch closer to the MBT maps when allowed to. The knock sensors are there to do the job and big named tuners like Lund do what they do, with a great degree of safety.

Where are you getting your knock? is it in a high gear, low rpm during throttle tip-in? or during a WOT event up through the rev range?

If Lund says you are fine, then they have probably deduced it to be "in this event, knock is present, and based of the logs, it looks like this and it isn't an issue"

If you had a visual log to post, people could chime in to explain what's happening...but I would trust your tuner.

 

[markmurfie]

Really... 10k miles for set of spark plugs??

At the very least take them out and clean, check, and regap them.
MAF sensor, O2 sensors, etc.
Especially running things like an oiled air filter and octane booster that can cause build up.

 

[Joeys550]

When i got my 93 oct lund tune i saw some consistent knock up to 5 degrees, lund told me that every parameter in the car was fine and we determined it was crappy fuel, put some lucas oct booster in your car if knock goes away is your gas quality . I ended up getting them to lower my timing and is been fine since then.

 

[beefcake]

Thats the point of built in knock sensors is to maximize good fuel and pull timing with bad fuel. Your tune is fine, You can't help the fuel quality. You shouldn't hear any pinging because the widebands are doing their job and the tune is doing it's job

 

[SVT-DADDY]

Good tip on the load. I monitor Knock values closely and it's nice to have a reference point.

There is nothing wrong with Lund's calibration. You just need to make the best of it with.

By purchasing a tune its obvious you are looking for the more performance from your car. Octane is a very important part of the performance of your engine, arguably the most important.
Your goal should be to find the gas station that sells the best quality gas near you. They are not all equal, even if they all say 91. setup your ngauge or SCT to watch a couple parameters. Load and knock. spark advance if you really want to see the final value. Cruising at 50-60mph, with RPMS between 1500-2000, at part throttle you should try to maintain as close to a constant .5-.6 engine load and watch where your knock value goes. Fill up at different places until you find which one makes the sensor the happiest under these same conditions. many stations with top tier ratings will be very close to each other, but there usually is one or two that stand out from the rest on the good side. Its always best to run the tanks down as much as possible between fills during your test. you can do this over the course of a few weeks just with normal driving and filling up at different stations in your area. This is also a good way to preserve the safety of your engine, you get bad gas, you will know before even going WOT, just cruise until your next fill up. Bad tanks happen every now and again. Its possible you don't find any good gas in your area, in that case go with an octane booster.
The second thing thats often over looked, that you should do, is regularly maintain your car. Performance comes with cost. Sure a set of spark plugs can easily last 75k+ miles, but changing them every 10k will ensure the performance of your engine is near its peak.

 

[markmurfie]

Good tip on the load. I monitor Knock values closely and it's nice to have a reference point.

Another tip is most pumps have gallon counters. You can usually tell if the station sells a lot of premium or not by that. Here's an example. This pump had regular, premium, and diesel. Premium was in the middle, regular on the left, a 6 or 7:1 ratio is actually pretty good and this station is top tier and I usually get very good results.

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