GT350 vs. Z/28

[thePill]

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

And typically, a wider power band reduces the over shifts per lap....

Like big time... That's both a mechanical advantage and elimination of driver error.

Saved shifts is literally all that took to beat the OEM z28 with the Base GT350... or so I heard...


Edit: Yes, I said the Base $49,995 GT350 is about even with its $75,000 competitior. It came down to saved shifts.

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[BaylorCorvette]

Edit: Yes, I said the Base $49,995 GT350 is about even with its $75,000 competitior. It came down to saved shifts.

Proof? I've been saying for a long time now that I thought the GT350 would be faster than the Z/28, yet the only other Camaro guy that believes me is one that tracks their car (ironic). Would be nice to show them something.

 

[68fbjjz109]

Well american and canadian engineers have been know to design very good stuff. But the accounting departments have long ruled and as a result performance has not been consistently up to par at certain times yes

I heard in the 80s a senior ford engineer talk very highly about how the Japanese have change the importance of engineering for the better. The most important thing is that it appears ford is really on a performance engineering roll and appears to be consistently going forward. I would say gm as well but they are having to many failures to say it has made the in roads it needs to. No doubt gm engineers can build world class machines but they keep stumbling




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Absolutely, Ford on a strategic level seems very similar to Toyota. With the purposeful evolution of platforms, Toyota's are boring for a reason, they never make drastic change.

Ford is willing to change, however they make the money literally by commonizing, reducing variation and doing good product life-cycle management. This allows to to have inherit quality, and smartly acquire components from suppliers cheaply because your are doing volume lots of volume.

We are just really seeing the fruits of Fords labor in how they have restructured their company.

With throwing everything under Ford Performance, and only putting money into series that benefit production cars, ( a reason Ford dropped John Force). They are using there money wisely. To meet CAFE with the internal combustion engine, you need to be light. There is no better way to cut weight than using racing to develop performance production variants of cars, which you can then incorporate aspects of those cars in a mid cycle action, at little cost because you paid for the R&D and a portion of the tooling already. While improving your brand image buy racing.

Is the GT350 front clip unique, yep. But I'll be dammed if everything doesn't mount up the same from an assembly standpoint. It wouldn't take much for that CFPP rad support to be in the 2017 Mustang, or the Aluminum bumpers.

 

[thePill]

Proof? I've been saying for a long time now that I thought the GT350 would be faster than the Z/28, yet the only other Camaro guy that believes me is one that tracks their car (ironic). Would be nice to show them something.

Have I ever needed proof? Do I ever provide proof to a rumor? It would cease to be a rumor. I also heard the OEM GT350R was faster than the Boss 302R in CTSC. If the R-C is putting 5 seconds on the 2nd place 911, I'd fear the OEM car.

Absolutely none of this would be under discussion if thePill hadn't brought it up. Here is an 18 minute walk around of the "mostly stock" z28r... Gimme a break...

[ame]


None of this should have been legal in GS :(


Good to know Mantella and Stevenson are teammates. That explains the d!ck in b@tt, choo-choo Camaro fest at the end.

I love the down play of the LS7, it's just merely a stock engine, that is also 100hp stronger than everything else. Yet they hammer on the heaviest car thing.

Balance of Performance, BOP... If balance was a concern, the z28 should have never been allowed.

Listen to what he says, BOP allows ALL manufacturers to race. That is the exact opposite of Factory Racing, that's a Formula hands down.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

Have I ever needed proof? Do I ever provide proof to a rumor? It would cease to be a rumor.

Well my point is it would be nice to know otherwise I can't really bring it up in conversation without it being a "I heard this from a dudes brother's, cousin's, uncle's, grandfather twice removed who once sat in a Denny's next to a Ford engineer" kind of thing. I think everyone should expect the GT350R to be faster than the Z/28. But the non R variant would be surprising.

 

[thePill]

Well my point is it would be nice to know otherwise I can't really bring it up in conversation without it being a "I heard this from a dudes brother's, cousin's, uncle's, grandfather twice removed who once sat in a Denny's next to a Ford engineer" kind of thing. I think everyone should expect the GT350R to be faster than the Z/28. But the non R variant would be surprising.

I will never provide a direct link back to my information, I'm not stupid:

It is nice to know, that's why people keep coming back to read everything I write. They want to know, or at least contribute to some extent.

A good example? My damn 3 radiator theory. If you watched the race, one of the Stevenson drivers explained this in short detail. While doing so he further confirmed what I previous expressed here.

First, the bad air... This occurs in traffic and as one particular member here tried to discredit, TESTING IN TRAFFIC is a MUST. Bad air sticks to the track and you suck ambient road heat up. You are also in an airless bubble in traffic, further robbing airflow. I wish that member were here now...

Second, the upper grill area isn't sufficient for the 5th Gen, it is likely just as bad in the 6th Gen, if not worse.

Third, the 3 radiator system is mainly a band-aid. The styling would have turned more ATS/CTS if so.

I know, I know... It's track ready (yawn). If it's so track ready, where's the trans cooler for the manual and the differential cooler? If it's overall better, why didn't the V6 and 2.0 get it?

If it's a race inspired upgrade, why would Chevy risk the additional weight and cost if it's only intended for less than 1% of Camaro owners?

 

[thePill]

If it's track ready where are the track ready tires, wheels and brakes... You can't tell me they stacked coolers under the hood for track days but just abandon every other area.

I bet the automatic transmission runs hot, that's why it has a transmission cooler and the manual does not. The C7 needed an Auto Trans cooler too. So, in many respects, the Auto Trans cooler is a band-aid. Possibly a small heat issue under moderate to heavy use.

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I'm not really following the 3 radiator design of the 6th gen since I don't like the styling of the car. I'll likely get a GT350 or C7 Z51. However I will say, I was under the impression that Chevy was utilizing three independent radiators for different cooling. For instance the OEM engine oil cooler in my ZL1 is cooled by the radiator fluid. This design may work for most people unfortunately for individuals that track their car and track it hard, especially in Texas weather, heat becomes a big issue. As such I am going the route of a dedicated oil cooler, to elevate the cooling burden of the radiator. My OEM trans cooler is already a separate unit. That's why I assumed the 3 radiator design was going to be for tree independent cooling units.

 

[thePill]

I'm not really following the 3 radiator design of the 6th gen since I don't like the styling of the car. I'll likely get a GT350 or C7 Z51. However I will say, I was under the impression that Chevy was utilizing three independent radiators for different cooling. For instance the OEM engine oil cooler in my ZL1 is cooled by the radiator fluid. This design may work for most people unfortunately for individuals that track their car and track it hard, especially in Texas weather, heat becomes a big issue. As such I am going the route of a dedicated oil cooler, to elevate the cooling burden of the radiator. My OEM trans cooler is already a separate unit. That's why I assumed the 3 radiator design was going to be for tree independent cooling units.

The engine is cooled by a traditional sized main radiator and two smaller auxiliary coolers mounted in a [ pattern.

It's all for the water...

It's a poor design...

 

[BaylorCorvette]

I bet the automatic transmission runs hot, that's why it has a transmission cooler and the manual does not. The C7 needed an Auto Trans cooler too. So, in many respects, the Auto Trans cooler is a band-aid. Possibly a small heat issue under moderate to heavy use.

I have a family member that owns a C7 Z51 with the 8 speed auto. I was fortunate enough to be able to track that car last track event and I overheated the transmission ~13 minutes into my session. Granted ambient temps were about 95 degrees, however I've NEVER had heating issues in my FAT Camaro. Just recently Corvette engineers said that the Z06 trans cooler would be put on C7 Z51's. Hopefully that fixes the problem, because for a C7 Z51 it is absolutely unacceptable to overheat the trans less than 15 minutes into a track session, automatic or not.

 

[thePill]

I have a family member that owns a C7 Z51 with the 8 speed auto. I was fortunate enough to be able to track that car last track event and I overheated the transmission ~13 minutes into my session. Granted ambient temps were about 95 degrees, however I've NEVER had heating issues in my FAT Camaro. Just recently Corvette engineers said that the Z06 trans cooler would be put on C7 Z51's. Hopefully that fixes the problem, because for a C7 Z51 it is absolutely unacceptable to overheat the trans less than 15 minutes into a track session, automatic or not.

I'm not saying it's going to fail, I'm saying the cooler is in place in the 8 speed Automatic because, somewhere down deep inside, there would be a heat issue without one. If they could get away without it they would.

The 3 radiator system is merely an additional measure to compensate for poor/no upper grill airflow. While the 3 cooler system may be very sufficient in the wind tunnel, at Amateur and Pro levels of Motorsport, it won't get the air it needs.

I can almost guarantee you will need to drop the OEM grill in the GT350 too. Hell, even the Boss had to drop its chicken coupe for anything semi-serious. I would think 300 degree oil temps in the current z28's would have been an indicator. The 3 rad system is probably a direct result of '14-'15 1LE and z28 R&D.

Another clue would have been the need for the ZL1 to retain the old '10-'13 fascia. Once the AC covers the lower opening, it really only leaves the upper grill for direct air.


I'm glad these particular topics have come to light so quickly. I have found that discussion involving very distant futures do not help my "reputation". I am receiving info closer to actual releases now. However, that won't stop me from dropping this silly GT350 topic...




...for one similar concerning the GT500 ;)

 

[thePill]

SHIPPING WEIGHT DOCUMENTS LEAKED.

NON-R Track Pack GT350 weighs 3516lbs. As someone said, that could be the base curb weight.

Either way, a NON-R weighs around 3620lbs.

 

[thePill]

GT350: 3615lbs
GT350: 3650lbs
GT350R: 3520lbs

Also keep in mind, the Euro GT's curb weight.

Europe gets a GT Performance Pack Premium w/9 speaker system STANDARD. With 90% of fuel, the GT's curb is 3639lbs (about 3650lbs full).

I think my theory of the Euro GT using the GT350 weight savings techniques is sound. It's amazing they even beat that weight. I was assuming the EU GT's methods wouldn't pass crash test here in the USA... I was wrong...


Remember I warned of a potential 3500lbs Base GT?

The only reason it doesn't exist is to make the GT350R look light... which it is... and the MSRP would be $3000-$5000 more :(

Also, we still don't know if some of that initial 130lbs was adopted across the board. It very well may have. But, since the MSRP's are so low, I'm not so sure.

 

[Erik427]

GT350: 3615lbs
GT350: 3650lbs
GT350R: 3520lbs

Also keep in mind, the Euro GT's curb weight.

Europe gets a GT Performance Pack Premium w/9 speaker system STANDARD. With 90% of fuel, the GT's curb is 3639lbs (about 3650lbs full).

I think my theory of the Euro GT using the GT350 weight savings techniques is sound. It's amazing they even beat that weight. I was assuming the EU GT's methods wouldn't pass crash test here in the USA... I was wrong...


Remember I warned of a potential 3500lbs Base GT?

The only reason it doesn't exist is to make the GT350R look light... which it is... and the MSRP would be $3000-$5000 more :(

Also, we still don't know if some of that initial 130lbs was adopted across the board. It very well may have. But, since the MSRP's are so low, I'm not so sure.

Need more info........?

 

[thePill]

Need more info........?

It looks like there is 99lbs between a Mustang's shipping weight and its curb. I need to locate some EB shipping weights to see if it's the same. An interesting fact, the EB Mustang uses a 15.5 gallon tank instead of a 16 gallon. I wonder if the 15.5 gallon was used in the GT350 to save 3lbs :lol:

We might see an official 3611lbs for a $49,995 GT350.

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